<OscarL>
this Win10 LTSC IoT installation will be my last one. It allows me to make the most out of my ancient hardware. If I ever get any decent newer computer... I'd most likely to switch full time to the less annoying Linux I can find. +qemu, plus the multiboot into Haiku, of course.
<OscarL>
I wish ProcessController (or any other Haiku program) was able to show the full command line for the running processes.
<brickviking[m]>
mmm hmm. qemu (along with virt-manager) has made an acceptable platform for me to create x86* VMs of all sorts, from TempleOS, Windows XP, and Minix all the way up to Haiku and the three BSDs.
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<brickviking[m]>
I'm assuming that "ps -w" doesn't?
<OscarL>
trying to determine which of 4 different pythons I need to kill feels like a russian roulette.
<OscarL>
"-w" is not a recognized option.
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<OscarL>
and also...
<OscarL>
the problem is, IIRC, that the info is just not available from the OS API.
<brickviking[m]>
Ah. Yes, that would be a problem.
<OscarL>
the full command line doesn't gets saved.
<brickviking[m]>
So how does a program iterate its commandline args, if there are any?
<brickviking[m]>
i.e. neat-program firstarg secondarg thirdarg=value
<OscarL>
same as all programs... as argv[]...
<OscarL>
what I mean is that once that's done...
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<brickviking[m]>
Hm. So it's only available inside argv, and not held in any OS-level structure?
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<OscarL>
if you ask the OS about that... it only partially "remembers" the command line (buffer has a fixed, small size)
<brickviking[m]>
I believe even Windows has the means to access commandline args.
<brickviking[m]>
Huh. Reminds me of MS-DOS/FreeDOS in that regard.
<OscarL>
old/original API was "get_team_info()"...
<brickviking[m]>
... which makes building software on MS-DOS quite the chore. WatcomC uses a response file to get around that.
<brickviking[m]>
sorry, wasn't in reply to get_team_info()
<OscarL>
" char args[64];"
<brickviking[m]>
Oh my.
<OscarL>
if command line was larger, you're out of luck.
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<OscarL>
there's a newer API... "get_extended_team_info()"
<brickviking[m]>
so if your command is several directories deep, you also lose out...given that args[0] is probably the full path
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<OscarL>
.... but I don't think it can retrieve the entire original parameters either.
* OscarL
starts killing teams at "random"
<brickviking[m]>
Is there an ascending PID like there is on UNIX-like, or equivalent on Windows, or are process IDs randomised?
<OscarL>
I think they are ascending PIDs.
<brickviking[m]>
In which case you may be lucky. Kill the lowest-relevant PID
<OscarL>
I wrote /bin/pidof when I first faced this same issue :-)
<brickviking[m]>
mmm. pidof would at least give you an array of PIDs. There's not much to separate one from another. Is there a field in the process table for how long each process has been executing? What's that time dependent on, on-CPU execution time?
<brickviking[m]>
(I'd be bemused if it ends up being wall-clock time, but that'd possibly make your job easier)
<OscarL>
I just left the test suite to run out of tests.... the one still hanging are the ones I need to kill.
<brickviking[m]>
Why would pty be dependent upon readline?
<brickviking[m]>
and more importantly, why would readline be dependent specifically on pty, and not purely some tty-simulator?
<OscarL>
I just pointed a possible connection...
<OscarL>
because no hang occurrs when I run them separately...
<OscarL>
and not always ocurr when I run tests in parallel (but sometimes do).
<OscarL>
if I disable either of them.... no hangs.
<brickviking[m]>
Hm. It's certainly probable. Why, I've no idea. I don't do OS-level stuff - I stay out of that even over on Linux.
<brickviking[m]>
And both pty-stuff and readline require OS services
<OscarL>
there's an underlying /dev/pty (or /dev/tty) device in there, so...
<brickviking[m]>
mmm.
<brickviking[m]>
Are the respective tests parallelised?
<brickviking[m]>
or serialised?
<OscarL>
there are about 445 tests, I run them with -j 4, supposedly with the same seed, but resulting order of execution depends on execution time of each tests, so order is not warranteed.
<OscarL>
thus why sometimes I get hangs in those, and sometimes I don't. At least that's my theory.
<brickviking[m]>
hm. And the only way to get out of that is to gatekeeper one or the other test, which might slightly slow down the test chain.
<brickviking[m]>
And would require parsing the entire process table.
<brickviking[m]>
And that's well outside my level of experience.
<OscarL>
I am NOT going to run tests as "-j 1" :-D (I barely have enough focus for a <20 minutes test suite run)
<brickviking[m]>
What I meant is: within one or other test, put code that says "If A is running, wait until it finishes before starting B" and vice versa.
<brickviking[m]>
...seeing as those are the only two tests that you've indicated so far.
<brickviking[m]>
Personally, I'd have used semaphores (by using files in the filesystem) but there are probably far better ways to do it.
<OscarL>
my comment about not running -j 1 was not a direct reply to your suggestion. just venting a bit of frustration :-)
<brickviking[m]>
mmm hmm.
<OscarL>
sadly, I have a ton of tests that either hang reliably, or sometimes hang...
<brickviking[m]>
Oh. Right. Those are a pain to deal with.
<OscarL>
I'm doing my best to disable both, but only those that really cause problems... in hopes that calling "hp python3.xx --test" gets less annoying than when I "took over".
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<OscarL>
earlier today I re-enabled 19 tests after seeing that they were "stable enough" in 32 bits nightlies....
<OscarL>
now running with those test enabled on 64 bits beta5 show that some of them still cause problems in that setup.
<OscarL>
I want to try and fix at least some of the bugs in our Python(s) port... having a easily runnable test-suite is a good first step (specially considering that I barely know what I'm doing).
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<janking>
Good morning to you all :)
<zelectric>
hi janking o/
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<janking>
:)
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<McCall[m]>
lol, I've failed at the first step getting Haiku running on my RISC-V VisionFive 2.... I forgot to buy an microSD card and don't have any spare! 🤣 I've got one in the post now though.
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<McCall[m]>
I did have an 1TB SSD for it, but you need an SD to boot initially (not even sure if the SSD is supported yet).
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<nekobot>
• OscarL (8d9e0240): python3.11: update to version 3.11.12. (#12151)
<Begasus[m]>
one down
<Peppersawce>
Guess I have to hunt for a better source... source
<OscarL>
Peppersawce: alternatives I can think of: 1- convice upstream to do a release, FFS! :-P. 2- fork project to codeberg.org (even as a read-only mirror), tag and release yourself.
<OscarL>
3- hunt for someone that already did option 2. :-D
<OscarL>
maybe debian?
<Peppersawce>
Heh, fair, I might go ahead and clone it on my github or something
<Peppersawce>
Time to go searching
<Begasus[m]>
checked Arch?
<Begasus[m]>
sometimes they supply a link to an archive also
<Begasus[m]>
repology ftw! :D
<Peppersawce>
That might work actually
<Begasus[m]>
FreeBSD sometimes too ... Ubuntu (but I mostly don't check there)
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<Begasus[m]>
Could not find a package configuration file provided by "Immer" with any of
<Begasus[m]>
that's one ... :)
<erysdren>
is there any place i can get x512 nvidia gpu drivers to play with on my machine?
<x512[m]>
I sent archive to 3deyes, but it currently need manual install. When driver starts it is required that there are no animations on screen, otherwise screen may stop updating.
<erysdren>
ahh i see
<erysdren>
thank you for the clarification
<Peppersawce>
People here thirsty for the shiny new graphics driver while I'm here perfectly fine getting 20fps on sauerbraten in a 640x480 window
<Peppersawce>
(yes, I'm coping, I'm too poor for those fancy new cards ): )
<erysdren>
i actually have no idea if my card would even be compatible... it's an nvidia gtx 1060
<erysdren>
about 10 years old
<Begasus[m]>
it's also too early to release something to the larger public as it's still in heavy development I guess
<zdykstra>
I don't want to rain on your parade, but porting Xen to Haiku isn't going to be as simple as "make packages for the dependencides"
<Begasus[m]>
gathered that zdykstra :)
<zdykstra>
that was addressed to nongeek, not our resident porting expert :)
<Begasus[m]>
that too :D
<nongeek>
Why? Need changes in OS internal?
<Begasus[m]>
I'm guessing some sort of window manager, network manager ...
<zdykstra>
yes, absolutely. You'll have to add extensive support to both Xen and to Haiku
<nongeek>
Aha
<nongeek>
Maybe Haiku is so young about virtualization support.
<Begasus[m]>
define "young"? ;)
<nongeek>
Its internal components.
<Begasus[m]>
small userbase compared to the major players
<nongeek>
Please thinking about it.
<scanty>
i wish i had freebsd installed instead of debian, but i'm too lazy to fix that now
<scanty>
not really using linux a lot lately, mostly haiku.
<nongeek>
Haiku is comparable to Debian.
<Begasus[m]>
only got Fedora setup in a VM on Windows, that's it here scanty :)
<nongeek>
Is not*
<Begasus[m]>
and since Windows is barely booting ...
<scanty>
i have windows on here "just in case"
<Begasus[m]>
afaik Debian is targetted as a server OS, which Haiku isn't
<Begasus[m]>
right scanty same here
<nongeek>
Not just the server. Its packages, security and power.
<nongeek>
Hardware support.
<Begasus[m]>
that comes with the system, Debian has always been like that
<Begasus[m]>
on hardware support I guess Debian also benifits from other linux/BSD drivers
<scanty>
it would be nice to have bktr on haiku
<nongeek>
Debian is awesome.
<Begasus[m]>
bktr?
<scanty>
i thought maybe about porting it, but i don't think i have the skills
<scanty>
bktr = booktree 848/878
<scanty>
TV
<Begasus[m]>
nongeek: , there is no doubt Debian is awsome, but not targetted (doesn't mean it can't) to Desktop usage
<Begasus[m]>
ah, rings a bell scanty :)
<nongeek>
I know, but you can use its children.
<Begasus[m]>
or Haiku :)
<scanty>
if i can see TV here, and OscarL's peek/poke driver works with my PCI parallel port, I can then have a self-contained environment on which i could do NES development.
<Begasus[m]>
if you take the good and the bad :)
<nongeek>
BTW, thanks.
<Begasus[m]>
np nongeek
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<Begasus[m]>
in case you still have questions just shoot, mostly someone is around to answer
<scanty>
he left
<Begasus[m]>
ah, missed that here :P
<Begasus[m]>
closing down here too
<scanty>
boo
<scanty>
no more friends left for me.
<Begasus[m]>
been a long day :P
<scanty>
i've been up for 3 hours
<scanty>
slept like a baby
<Begasus[m]>
maybe OscarL-32 will drop in in a bit :)
<Begasus[m]>
been up for 18hours :)
<scanty>
i hope so, i was thinking maybe to donate some moneys to him to he could get proper internet access.
<Begasus[m]>
almost 8:30PM, time for some TV relaxing :)
<Begasus[m]>
yeah :(
<Begasus[m]>
too bad it can't be trusted there (as he implied)
<scanty>
i will ask him how much it is and go from there
<scanty>
maybe a few of us could donate a little bit of money for him because he does a lot of work on the packages and ports.
<scanty>
anyways, have a good night
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<Begasus[m]>
thanks, cu tomorrow (probably) :)
<Begasus[m]>
cya!
<Peppersawce>
cya
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<Yoke>
Getting a 16gb-1600 kit for my laptop has been the best thing I've done for this thing, got double the ram and now the thing flies like hell.
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<Habbie>
memory is the best upgrade
<neoncortex>
I'm using this on a 4gb notebook and, aside from the web browser, it runs like a champ.
<Saijin_Naib[m]>
Does Haiku kernel support/allow tweaking disk queue algorithms like Linux kernel?
<Yoke>
unfortunately it's DDR3 so that's the fastest it's gonna go, defo feels better to use though
<Saijin_Naib[m]>
if so, BFQ was probably one of the best tweaks I made on my 4GB RAM/64GB eMMC craptop to usability
<Saijin_Naib[m]>
DDR3 is still plenty fast vs swapping/paging, so that's cool you were able to find (reasonably?) priced RAM and upgrade!
<neoncortex>
I would be interested in disk queue caching. In the way I work, I use the find command a lot, and I have scripts that cache the queries for using later, but it seems that it reads the disk at each new query.
<neoncortex>
I did not migrated to attributes yet, because I'm not sure if I can backup it correctly, so I'm using scripts for 'tagging' directories.
<Yoke>
oh yeah, I was on 8gb of 1333 before so yeah, on things liku ubuntu it could slow way down
<Saijin_Naib[m]>
neoncortexfor my linux usage, BFQ + zswap basically eliminated disk IO contention under load, which lets be real, you are always under load with 4GB RAM haha
<Saijin_Naib[m]>
Haiku is super light, but yeah, browsers gonna eat resources no matter the Host OS
<neoncortex>
yes xD
<Yoke>
Not like that is gonna change any time soon either, it seems like you need more memory year on year at this point
<neoncortex>
sure, at some point, I will have to buy more ram. It is like this.
<Yoke>
honestly I still miss having DVD drives on laptops, even if machines are on the whole better without them
<AlienSoldier>
browser could take less memory if they could extract only what is usefull, interpret the data and discard what is not usefull.
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<AlienSoldier>
i don't care if it does not render perfectly like in a magazine if all the same operation is possible.
<AlienSoldier>
for exemple, no need to keep in memory the insane resolution pushed by a server for a particular picture
<AlienSoldier>
same with the gazillion fonts
<neoncortex>
AlienSoldier: I agree, and I wish that things to be more tunnable in the future.
<Peppersawce>
Browsers would be way lighter without site ads, lol
<neoncortex>
ideally, I would be using gopher, and gemini, but that is not up to me.
<AlienSoldier>
not having memory leek in browsers would also be a good start
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<AlienSoldier>
*leak
<Peppersawce>
also true
<Peppersawce>
but at least that one will be fixed someday
<Peppersawce>
ads will only get worse :(
<AlienSoldier>
i wish ads would be bidirectional :)
<Peppersawce>
Hahaha, that'd be fun
<AlienSoldier>
they would send me a car ads, i would send then pic of myself repairing my 80's truck myself :)
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<Peppersawce>
lol
<neoncortex>
ha
<AlienSoldier>
one good thing about internet ads is that i see almost none when i walk around outside. Been ages i saw i billboard.
<neoncortex>
now that you have said it. Long time I have not seen flyers, and stuff. Yes, that is a good thing.
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<Peppersawce>
True
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<neoncortex>
also, I don't know how I did this but: now my deskbar have one button, divided, half is the pen button, to open applications, and the other half is like someone drawing in a board, that shows my currently opened programs.
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<AlienSoldier>
neoncortex you can "stretch" it back if you draw the little subtile dotet line
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<AlienSoldier>
*drag
<neoncortex>
oh.
<neoncortex>
oh, on the right side, got it.
<scanty>
first time i did that on BeOS it confused me as well.
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<AlienSoldier>
neoncortex you can drag it in any corner you want
<neoncortex>
I see. Very cool.
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