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<Begasus[m]>
g'morning peeps
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<nipos>
Did anyone else also notice issues with rebooting at the latest nightly?
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<nipos>
Shutdown works as usual,but reboot keeps hanging at "Asking other processes to quit" forever,the mouse is unresponsive in that state.Only pulling the power helps in that situation.That used to work in the past.
<Habbie>
that's interesting, because you'd assume that phase is part of shutdown too
<nipos>
Yes,that message appears during a normal shutdown too,but there it doesn't hang
<Begasus[m]>
been happning for a while I think (at least noticed it over a week ago in qemu)
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<nipos>
Currently trying to find out where it started to happen.hrev58775 which I used for quite some time already had the issue,but I didn't notice before
<nipos>
58713 still works.I still have a few hrevs to test inbetween.
<nipos>
58745 also works,that's the last one I have before 58775 but that narrows it down to only 30 possible hrevs.
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<Peppersawce>
@Begasus Imo at least SpaceCadet is fine for a merge, that midi issue is not app-specific and nobody else commented so far :)
<Peppersawce>
Maybe AssaultCube too :)
<Peppersawce>
Hi btw
<jmairboeck>
Hi Peppersawce!
<Peppersawce>
Hello :D
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<JulesEnriquez[m]>
Are there any Linux distros that have Space Cadet Pinball in their repos?
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
Last I heard, most didn't due to the questionable legality of it not being clean room reverse engineered.
<Peppersawce>
Iirc there's a list on their github
<Peppersawce>
Personally I don't think there's any true legal issue with it but I have no clue how that kind of things go
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
Peppersawce: Those are source ports, not packages.
<Peppersawce>
Copyright on it was Cinematronics/Maxis in 1995, which means probably EA has the rights afaict
<Peppersawce>
Mine's a port as well, I'm not including any of the original data
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
Yep, not packaged in many places and most of them are in source packages.
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
It should prolly be distributed outside of HaikuPorts, just to be safe.
<Peppersawce>
You mean it's not shipped compiled? What's the point then lmao
<Peppersawce>
Aside from AUR where that's the norm
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
GURU is also like the AUR, but for Gentoo.
<Peppersawce>
I'm not saying it won't happen but a company would have to be really petty to go after a source port of a game that was given away for free 30 years ago
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
Same for the other places that have Space Cadet Pinball in that list.
<Peppersawce>
Oh well, it's one thing to keep in mind for sure
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
Peppersawce: Well, it has happened before. Abandonware is in a legal grey area.
<Peppersawce>
Yeah, but abandonware implies the game data is being packed in as well, the binary should be fair game in theory afaik
<Peppersawce>
If no game data is included there's maybe a point to be made about the sketchy reverse-engineering, sure
<Peppersawce>
EA has probably better things to do than sue non-profits
<Peppersawce>
Unless they really want to keep their bad rep up, there's no money to be made either way
<PulkoMandy>
There are several other reimhlemented game engines in haikuports, I don't see a problem with that
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
Most of those were done with clean room reverse engineering.
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<JulesEnriquez[m]>
Many reverse engineered project are done by teams, with different people examining the original software and writing the reimplementation.
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
s/project/projects/
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
IIRC the Space Cadet Pinball reimplementation was originally done by a single person, so clean room reverse engineering couldn't have been done.
<Peppersawce>
Let's say EA gets angry about it, worst thing they'd do is a C&D order, if that happens sure, let's pull it
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
I could ask some distro packagers about the project and corroborate on why they don't package it.
<Peppersawce>
But a legal battle over demonstrating the specifics of reverse engineering it? Not gonna happen
<Peppersawce>
Yeah, that could be nice
<Begasus[m]>
Hi Peppersawce Jules Enriquez jmairboeck etall :)
<Begasus[m]>
looks like some things need to be sorted out first then?
<Peppersawce>
Btw I do think they have the power to C&D it away, Take-two did the same for GTA3's reverse engineering
<Peppersawce>
Eh, maybe
<Peppersawce>
But in Take-two's case it was because they wanted to sell their crap remasters
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<JulesEnriquez[m]>
The re3 thing is actually still being litigated in NZ, as was done by a team and there might be a case for it being legal.
<Peppersawce>
Ah, that's interesting
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
Or at least, it was the last time I checked last year.
<Peppersawce>
Might be a precedent if things go right
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<Peppersawce>
Not all of re3's repos were pulled btw, if you look enough you'll find one with some patches for Haiku
<Peppersawce>
That doesn't compile
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
Ok, that for sure shouldn't be in HaikuPorts until the legalities are sorted out.
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
No one wants multiple private detective showing up at their door.
<Peppersawce>
Yeah, I'm not touching that one at all
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
s/detective/detectives/
<Peppersawce>
Not that it would run okay on here anyway
<jessicah>
oh man, being able to play space cadet pinball in Haiku is awesome :)
<Peppersawce>
:D
<jessicah>
hmm, where did I keep my copy...
<Peppersawce>
Shouldn't be that much different from the one you compiled? It compiled straight away here
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
jessicah: Oh yeah, you posted the original recipe here years ago right?
<nephele>
My laptop seems to use ps2 multiplexing, on some boots it works, on other boots it does not. How can I investiagate that?
<Peppersawce>
I've only added Haiku-specific data paths
<Peppersawce>
If there's any improvement to be made feel free to let me know :)
<jessicah>
hmm, but what did I do with the data files
<Peppersawce>
Without changes they can be found in "config/settings"
<Peppersawce>
By the binary
<Peppersawce>
Iirc it gives you an error window with accepted paths if it doesn't find the data
<Peppersawce>
*with the accepted paths listed
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<Peppersawce>
@nephele can't help you with your issue, just wanted to let you know I took your suggestion about DevilutionX in the end :)
<Peppersawce>
When I answered I was tired and being lazy
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<nephele>
Ok cool :) I didn't know there were any scripts involved btw, i assumed you were dealing with C++ code
<nephele>
I am also dealing with the same "issue" in Renga right now, just that I want to migrate to a new settings format, and so have to build a proper migration path, and a transparent one
<Peppersawce>
Yeah, I'm not touching C++, I'm not much of a coder :)
<Peppersawce>
Best of luck with that one :)
<nephele>
But you write shell scripts? :P
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<Peppersawce>
Yeah, sure... I mean, I steal "script" snippets I find and adapt them, lol
<Peppersawce>
I find it easier to read how it's done than learning how the whole thing works
<Peppersawce>
Had habit but eh, as long as it works :)
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
@Peppersawce: Got a response from a Fedora packager:
<Peppersawce>
Taken from a "legit" install (Internet Archive)
<Peppersawce>
About microsoft's involvement in it, the game was licensed to them by Maxis, I'm not sure Microsoft has much say in it btw
<nephele>
> <Peppersawce> I'm not saying it won't happen but a company would have to be really petty to go after a source port of a game that was given away for free 30 years ago
<nephele>
It wasn't given away for free if you had to *buy* a windows license for it to be included
<nephele>
and microsoft is absolutely petty enough for anything :P
<nephele>
but don't let that stop you
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
Note that Haiku, Inc. is an American organisation, so there's a bit more of a legal risk.
<nephele>
Haiku Inc is not responsible for haikuports
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
So who is responsible?
<nephele>
haikuports
<jessicah>
packages are hosted by Haiku, Inc., so we're still responsible from a distribution point of view
<gordonjcp>
Peppersawce: that doesn't tell me anything
<jessicah>
it's redistribution, so license needs to allow that to be in haikuports
<jessicah>
to be in the official haikuports... you can host your own repo, as I said
<gordonjcp>
I'd hate to live in a country where I had to care about stuff like that
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
jessicah: So even if Haiku, Inc. isn't directly responsible for HaikuPorts, legally questionable recipes should be set to not be built by the Haiku buildmaster servers?
<nephele>
gordonjcp: that leaves china
<jessicah>
correct, as they then go from there to distribution
<gordonjcp>
nephele: I'm in the UK
<gordonjcp>
nephele: software licensing isn't really a thing here
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
jessicah: It's a possible route for *Space Cadet Pinball*, although would rather not find out for sure.
<nephele>
Intelectual property is just as much a thing there as in the US
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
Yeah
<Peppersawce>
Not really
<nephele>
Haiku inc can claim the same stuff as google does for the play store, we aren't responsible for stuff shipped, we do our duo diligence to remove stuff if notified
<Peppersawce>
US is much more corporation-friendly about it
<nephele>
but that also means not putting stuff in the repo if you know it to be shady :)
<gordonjcp>
nephele: it's so expensive to bring stuff to court here, you'd have to be something like a massive multinational company running everything on pirate Microsoft Excel to get the courts to take an interest
<nekobot>
• Begasus (3aa5debb): kpkpass_kf6, bump to 25.04.0 (#12190)
<Peppersawce>
@gordonjcp you asked me for a list of sounds tho :D
<jessicah>
nephele: uh, no, we clearly know the licensing... it's the same reason Fedora, etc. can't do in messages above
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
gordonjcp: That just sounds like the legal system there is ***massively*** tilted towards the wealthy, just like in the US.
<nephele>
jessicah: yes, in this case we know it, and therefore it shouldn't be in haikuports
<nephele>
but in general if this slipped by and you'd not know Haiku inc wouldn't have any liability, provided it is then removed when notifiesd
<gordonjcp>
JulesEnriquez[m]: only if the defendant is wealthy
<gordonjcp>
nephele: yeah, no
<gordonjcp>
nephele: like, you cannot DMCA anything published in the UK
<jessicah>
and any recipe in haikuports that doesn't specify a license shouldn't be built by haiku official buildservers, not sure if that's done though
<gordonjcp>
nephele: you can request something is taken down, but I'm under no obligation to do so
<nephele>
DMCA is a US specific law, of course you can't use it in the UK...
<gordonjcp>
nephele: you can request details of the person that published it, but it's illegal for me to tell you
<gordonjcp>
so
<Peppersawce>
haikuporter nags if a license is not present so that should be fine @jessicah
<gordonjcp>
if I host something and someone uses it to breach copyright, it's kind of a shame but it's not really my problem
<gordonjcp>
and you can't ask about it
<Peppersawce>
Too bad the servers are in the US, right? :)
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
Any signatory country to the Berne Convention cannot allow the distribution of copyrighted software without permission:
<nephele>
That's nonsense, as long as the UK is a party member to that contract you can still be held liable under UK law ratifying the contract
<gordonjcp>
Peppersawce: what servers?
<Peppersawce>
It's not the original copyrighted binary though
<gordonjcp>
Peppersawce: does anyone in the US even have servers?
<Peppersawce>
The Haikuports one?
<gordonjcp>
nephele: but there are other laws that override that
<Peppersawce>
Eh, who knows, never been there :D
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
Peppersawce: But it is based directly on the decomp of said original binary.
<gordonjcp>
nephele: one of the hilarious things is that if you find out who breaches your copyright in the UK, you can be fined into a smoking hole in the ground for knowing that
<gordonjcp>
(if you're outside the UK)
<nephele>
seeing as US companies abuse the system for their AI slop i'd think EU countries should withdraw in any case
<Peppersawce>
I imagine a court of people rolling their eyes at this decomp stuff ngl
<gordonjcp>
it's basically illegal to tell anyone outside the UK or EU that information
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
Even most other decomp projects aren't directly based on decompilations of the original binaries.
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
That's why those Nintendo decompilations haven't been taken down yet.
<jessicah>
decompilation is basically a derivative work... whereas a re-implementation without looking at the original code is fine
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
And many here are presumably aware of how litigious Nintendo is.
<jessicah>
which is how ReactOS works
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
Correct
<gordonjcp>
jessicah: that's also how Compaq did their BIOS for their first PC clone
<nephele>
decompilation, and using that to implement a new version, is fine depending on your jurisdiction
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
Yep
<Peppersawce>
isn't all this covered by "fair use", "educative" etc.? At least in the EU
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
But just modifying the decompilation is more questionable.
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
Peppersawce: Fair use is an American legal concept.
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
IIRC
<Peppersawce>
Eh, they don't implement it that well then :)
<nephele>
Peppersawce: in some countries, like germany, there are specific laws that enable this usecase. On the grounds that you bought the software, and if the manufacturer doesn't make ti compatible with *your* computer, you have the right to do this yourself
<nephele>
distributing these patches is another issue however
<Peppersawce>
Oh, that's cool
<Peppersawce>
I'm probably too lax about these things, here in Italy most home computers still use pirated Windows
<Peppersawce>
Afaik
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
Same in my country too, piracy laws are only really enforced on large-scale violators.
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
But I still wouldn't be as legally risky with public projects.
<Peppersawce>
Fair point
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
Flathub does distribute the game + game data, though.
<gordonjcp>
12:33 < JulesEnriquez[m]> Peppersawce: Fair use is an American legal concept.
<gordonjcp>
JulesEnriquez[m]: like school shootings and paying out of your own pocket for medicine?
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
Then again, Flathub also outright has piracy software so eh.
<Peppersawce>
I could see this situation going either way, it'd be a shame if we drop a working recipe for it but it's fine by me
<jessicah>
apparently Microsoft didn't even have the license to re-release later
<Peppersawce>
lmao @gordonjcp
<Peppersawce>
"Land of the free" :D
<Begasus[m]>
"home of the brave"? :P
<gordonjcp>
jessicah: I'm not surprised
<nephele>
distributing this makes no sense to me honestly, especially with the legal gray area
<nekobot>
• Begasus (c3ac7ed6): kmime_kf6, bump to 25.04.0 (#12191)
<nephele>
or well, very dark gray....
<gordonjcp>
Peppersawce: I actually interviewed for a position with an American-run company, it was hilarious
<gordonjcp>
Peppersawce: apparently I get 14 days paid time off a year! Which I can use for holidays *or* sickness absence!
<Peppersawce>
Oh wow! lmao
<gordonjcp>
yeah
<Peppersawce>
That's so eff'd up
<gordonjcp>
so uh let me explain why that's not going to work in Scotland, guys ;-)
<jessicah>
wow, that's brutal
<nephele>
funny. Here you can call in sick on vacation to get your vacation day back
<gordonjcp>
nephele: I... haven't tried that
<gordonjcp>
but I don't see it wouldn't work
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
gordonjcp: Paying out of pocket for medicine happens elsewhere, but frequent school shootings are for sure proudly American. 🇺🇲🦅🍔
<gordonjcp>
I'll be brutally honest, I only took the interview to take the piss out of them having seen their Ts & Cs
<nephele>
gordonjcp: well, usually it is not done. but you can. Especially usefull if you fall sick at the end of your vacation, then you can go to the doctor during the end of the vacation
<gordonjcp>
oh you want me to carry my work phone 24/7 and answer it whenever?
<gordonjcp>
sure
<nephele>
why? do you get payed for that?
<jessicah>
almost two weeks of public holidays in NZ alone, then you have vacation leave, which is four weeks, and then sick leave is separate from that again
<gordonjcp>
my top line is 60k, so my bottom line is pro rata around £250k? Cool.
<jessicah>
so up to 6 weeks off per year
<Begasus[m]>
jmairboeck: for boost1.87, the base is the same as with the other boost recipes, not fiddling more with them if not really required :)
<gordonjcp>
oh it isn't? Then what am I carrying my work phone for?
<nephele>
jessicah: I'm not even counting public holidays, since those are well public :g
<gordonjcp>
nephele: I *did* get phoned last summer by someone from work on my personal phone while I was on holiday
<nephele>
honestly, i was a bit shocked when i learned that waddlesplash has similar "normal" US vacation days, but since he works less time i think that is fine atm
<gordonjcp>
nephele: but, he was an Assistant Engineer, he was on by himself with no-one more senior (like me) at work, and he was *absolutely totally stuck*, and I did say, if you're absolutely totally stuck just phone me
<nephele>
I can understand kinda, if there is something really important, but i don't understand the expectation that you carry around a phone everywhere, especially a work phone
<gordonjcp>
"okay you have phoned me, you can assign the job to me, it is my problem now, and it'll get looked at when I'm back"
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
Honestly if I were to work for an international company, I'd much prefer a European company.
<gordonjcp>
nephele: ye
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
Lots of benefits and the EUR exchange rate to the local currency is better than the USD right now.
<jessicah>
I think Aussie enshrined in law that you can ignore contact from work outside work hours without retribution for ignoring
<gordonjcp>
nephele: the guy is good at what he's good at, but not massively experienced in the Deep Tech side of things, which is so wildly obscure that probably only a couple of dozen folk in the country know it
<jessicah>
is it cobol? lol
<gordonjcp>
jessicah: no no, Cobol is mainstream as fuck
<gordonjcp>
jessicah: it's a thing called GD92
<jessicah>
I actually worked at a district council whose outsourced software turned out to be written in cobol
<gordonjcp>
there's not a lot wrong with Cobol tbh
<gordonjcp>
I wouldn't write anything new in it
<nephele>
Hmm, this Panasonic laptop has like everything supported
<nephele>
very cool
<gordonjcp>
jessicah: you might have heard of GD92 if you've worked for the UK or NZ fire brigade or coastguard ;-)
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
Been tempted to learn COBOL, based on hearing about it being rare to find anyone who knows it and hasn't croaked yet.
<gordonjcp>
nephele: neat, which model?
<nephele>
Now I actually have a device for the coding sprint next month and don't have to turn up with my monitor and minipc xD
<nephele>
gordonjcp: Panasonic Toughbook CF-53
<gordonjcp>
JulesEnriquez[m]: I read about a guy who got hired as a cobol programmer for a bank, because he'd studied it at uni
<gordonjcp>
JulesEnriquez[m]: the very first ticket he got handed to work on was... something his mother had written, before he was born
<jessicah>
gordonjcp: huh, so the weird search results for a comms spec is about right?
<gordonjcp>
jessicah: yes
<gordonjcp>
jessicah: it's so obscure - abstruse even - that I'm surprised it's not heavily used in amateur radio
<gordonjcp>
it's way way way weirder than AX.25
<nephele>
jessicah: Do you know if we have logarythmic scaling for controls anywhere in the API?
<nephele>
I want to make the BSlider support this for screen brightness
<jmairboeck>
Begasus[m]: I have noticed now that 1.87.0 is indeed correct. Good that there are rarely any patch updates to boost.
<nephele>
(this panasonic laptop is *incredibly* bright with it's max brightness xD)
<nephele>
hmm, though maybe i should just code that into the screen preferences instead and leave the slider alone
<jessicah>
even just googling for it throws up very few results
<Begasus[m]>
right jmairboeck mostly only major version updates
<jessicah>
nephele: hmm, I thought the media prefs has an option for logarithmic scaling?
<nephele>
I think it has for audio yeah
<gordonjcp>
every time I've tried to use logarithmically-scaled controls I've regretted it
<nephele>
though, i assumed the scale of BSlider corresponded to the screen brightnesss... but it really doesn't
<nephele>
it just uses 0-255 internally, as ints and not floats
<gordonjcp>
I've found it's best to keep the control linear, and convert its stored linear value to the correct log or log-like curve before applying it to whatever it controls
<nephele>
where the screen brightness if 0-1.0f
<gordonjcp>
nephele: it might be an S-curve
<nephele>
gordonjcp: Yeah, I might do that instead
<nephele>
there is a call like "setBrightnesss(be:value / 255f)
<nephele>
I'm not sure how to (mathematically) do other curves properly :)
<gordonjcp>
nephele: I don't know if it would be necessary for a screen backlight, but theatre dimmers have an S-shaped curve that's flatter at the bottom and top, and steeper in the middle, because our eyes don't respond to changes in the mid range much
<nephele>
I could enable the Bios option to reduce the max brightness by half :P
<gordonjcp>
it's like a very very soft version of a sigmoid curve
<nephele>
gordonjcp: I'm a fan of doing it "properly" of course :)
<Begasus[m]>
looks like I missed the AI spam at the forum nephele :)
<gordonjcp>
nephele: if you look at the curve for y=x/(1+abs(x)) you'll see what I mean
<gordonjcp>
that's way too steep for a dimmer
<gordonjcp>
but by altering the "1" and scaling the result you can get there
<nipos>
Begasus: I saw it and also thought about saying something,but then decided it's better not to,because I didn't want to fight with the AI fanboys
<nephele>
Begasus[m]: entering a vague problem into an "AI" and posting the output is even more useless than googeling something vague and posting a linkg
<gordonjcp>
nephele: what was the spam?
<Begasus[m]>
can't comment as I haven't seen it :)
<nephele>
"This is Perplexity AI opinion on this issue: <link to ai output>"
<gordonjcp>
(I don't really read forums, not even the one I run)
<nephele>
Begasus[m]: I forgot you aren't a moderator xD
<Begasus[m]>
np nephele :)
<Begasus[m]>
no need, got plenty to take care of :D
<Begasus[m]>
if that is part of gear24 it will be update shortly also
<nephele>
cant find kmplot in haikudepot
<Begasus[m]>
it's here: /Opslag/haikuports/kde-apps/kmplot/kmplot-24.12.3.recipe:2:DESCRIPTION="KmPlot is a program to plot graphs of functions, their integrals or derivatives. The \
<Begasus[m]>
ah, I think that one had issues with 3D graphics
<nekobot>
• Begasus (81597c11): itinerary, bump to 25.04.0 (#12197)
<Peppersawce>
If there's a port available sure, why not :)
<nephele>
port?
<Peppersawce>
But I grew up with 1 and 2 and ain't got the data for 3
<Peppersawce>
Like, source port, reimplementation or whatevrer :)
<nephele>
I doubt it
<Peppersawce>
Maybe someday
<nephele>
1 and 2 are 2d; 3 is 3d so quite different
<Peppersawce>
Knowing how the games were made I'm more impressed by a source port for 1&2 tbh
<Peppersawce>
They were written in assembly, 3 is likely C or C++
<nephele>
It could be possible with wine
<Peppersawce>
An updated wine port would be so cool
<nephele>
wine10 has finished the PE transition so we shouldn't need a 32bit userspace to run 32bit applciations on 64bit
<nephele>
maybe we can use it
<Peppersawce>
that's great news
<Peppersawce>
I was wondering if recompiling would fix the drawing issue it has currently
<nephele>
probably not
<Peppersawce>
Yeah
<nephele>
why would recompiling fix drawing issues?
<Peppersawce>
That gives you an idea of how much I actually know about coding :)
<Peppersawce>
I'm a trial and error tinkerer more than anything else xD
<nephele>
I think you've spend too much time in linux ;)
<nipos>
https://git.haiku-os.org seems a bit unstable lately :/ Was down only a few days ago.Worked fine for me when I began to investigate the reboot issues,now it's down again (throwing error 404)
<Peppersawce>
I wish, I'm boycotting my own linux install :D
<Begasus[m]>
grabbing kmplot-25.04.0-1-x86_64.hpkg and moving it to /Opslag/haikuports/packages/kmplot-25.04.0-1-x86_64.hpkg :)
<nephele>
nipos: maybe kallisti5[m] or waddlesplash can give some info there
<Peppersawce>
To be clear, I love to hate linux and it always feels like the feeling is mutual
<Peppersawce>
I've never had a linux install go just right, like, ever
<nipos>
I can work with the mirror at https://codeberg.org/haiku/haiku in the meantime,but cgit shows the hrevs which is a big plus
<Begasus[m]>
from reading the logs kallisti5 is working on that nipos
<nekobot>
• Begasus (4a944b01): kmplot, add new recipe for 25.04.0 (#12198)
<Begasus[m]>
not in this log nipos :)
<kallisti5[m]>
<nipos> "I can work with the mirror at..." <- You're technically cloning from the wrong place. https://review.haiku-os.org/haiku
<nephele>
kallisti5[m]: this is about cgit. beeing down
<kallisti5[m]>
cgit can't take any load tbh
<nephele>
why? AI Scrappers?
<nephele>
maybe we should deploy anubis?
<kallisti5[m]>
One sec.
<nipos>
I cloned from the review page of course,but the web version is more comfortable for reading through changes and such,rather than messing with terminal commands
<kallisti5[m]>
ok. sorry, was on my phone. So yeah, cgit is definitely the "best" git browsing interface i've seen. However, it completely chokes on people scraping from it
<kallisti5[m]>
we see a wide range of random ips hitting misc pages scraping data
<kallisti5[m]>
The difficulty is, they're hitting valid pages.. so all 200 responses
<kallisti5[m]>
so we can't filter them like random 4xx scrapers
<nipos>
These AI idiots also killed my OpenGrok instance repeatedly,but I managed to ban at least the largest portion of them so that it's stable again.Those bots are an increasing pain
<kallisti5[m]>
we can rate limit, but clicking around cgit makes valid users hit that rate limit pretty quickly
<nephele>
recently this has been deployed by quite a lot of OSS infrastructure, and it works fine with webpositive
<kallisti5[m]>
nephele: looking. At minimum the graphics are adorable
<nipos>
While it's a lot less annoying than Cloudflare,it still locks out text-based terminal browsers and lightweight stuff like Netsurf and Dillo
<kallisti5[m]>
oooh. ok. I like it
<kallisti5[m]>
lets toss it infront of gerrit / cgit
<kallisti5[m]>
scratch gerrit
<kallisti5[m]>
just cgit :-)
<nephele>
text-based browsers isn't a thing. you need a proper framebuffer to support html :P
<kallisti5[m]>
and maybe trac
<nipos>
Do you already block bots based on user agents?
<nephele>
let's try it with cgit and maybe trac and see how well it works
<nephele>
nipos: ineffective
<nipos>
Not really
<nephele>
AI scrappers have gone over to using domestic ips and faking user agents
<nephele>
not suprising that the more rude and hostile scrappers are faking their agents
<nipos>
Blocking AmazonBot reduces the server load a lot already
<Peppersawce>
I know I'm going to argue semantics but, if we take the most basic of HTML then... I can see a text-based browser being a thing xD
<Peppersawce>
Sure, no site does that anymoer
<nipos>
If that wasn't enough,I could go on filtering those clearly wrong chrome/xxx.0.0.0 user agents because true Chromium based browsers don't use .0.0.0 after the major version (I'm pretty sure)
<nephele>
ideally we should just not send any user agent tbh
<nephele>
and then use webkit "fallback" to fix broken pages by sending a specific one
<nipos>
Sending Firefox on Windows 10 is the best solution against fingerprinting,that's what Tor Browser does and LibreWolf used to (lately seeing a Linux user agent there,but using OpenIndiana so it's probably their new generic user agent)
<kallisti5[m]>
alright. hold onto your butts. cgit getting anubis
<nephele>
Sending more data is never a good solution :P
<nipos>
Firefox on Windows 10 is more common than no user agent at all,so the latter makes you more fingerprintable
<nephele>
the tor browser just can't start with doing that, otherwise you'd know it's the tor browser based on that
<nipos>
Exactly that.
<nephele>
it really isn't. there are way too many firefox versions
<kallisti5[m]>
working to decode what's happening. That's anubis logs
<Peppersawce>
Why should a site care about the underlying OS? Shouldn't they just deal with the browser itself?
<kallisti5[m]>
is that cgit timing out... or is it anubis timing out crawlers not responding to it's test
<nephele>
Bingbot is #1 and Uptime-kuma is #2
<nephele>
but, do we even have an uptime-kuma?
<nipos>
anyway)
<nipos>
Those bots are wasting valuable donation resources that should ideally go into development,something should be done to limit that on a best efforts basis.On the other hand,stuff like Anubis is locking down the internet even more and should be the last resort.A while ago I started writing a native Haiku Forum client using the Discourse API.Couldn't do that with Anubis anymore (but not sure if I'll continue it
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<nephele>
sure you can do that with anubis
<nephele>
native api needs a key, aka a token
<nephele>
you can short-circuit anything that has a token
<Peppersawce>
I think I read on osnews that big opensource projects like Gnome and Kde are having the same issues with bots
<Peppersawce>
Maybe they have some pointers on how to deal with that?
<nephele>
they delpoy anubis
<Peppersawce>
Ah ic
<nephele>
kallisti5[m]: googling for that i land on some docs for kubernetest
<nipos>
nephele: I planned that app to be open-source and compatible to use with any Discourse forum.Hardcoding a specific key for a specific instance doesn't feel right.And the bots would see the key and could also use it.That's exactly what I meant with locking down the web.
<nephele>
No they can't. It's a token per user
<nephele>
the user has to supply this to log in basically
<nephele>
currently admins can only issue tokens in discourse, and not users for themselves, but that is a discourse problem tbh
<nipos>
You can use the read-only part of the API without logging in...
<nephele>
anyway, native app sounds interesting. any git repo?
<nipos>
Not yet
<nephele>
I was wondering if one could use swagger/openapi and create a haiku netservices backend for it
<nephele>
to then generate apis automatically to be consumed by a native app
<nipos>
It was my very first experiment with Haiku native UI.Currently it only shows a list of the latest topics,that's all
<Peppersawce>
If I had a lightweight client to access the forums I'd use it, my 2 cents
<nephele>
Sure, i'd too
<nephele>
same for trac, for gerrit etc
<Peppersawce>
Yeah
<nephele>
ideally these could be great native apps instead of mediocre websites
<nipos>
I should probably revisit that project after the major BeAIM update I'm planning to push soon
<nipos>
Discourse being a JS-heavy beast mostly built around a nice JSON API for talking with the backend makes it an ideal candidate for a native app.
<nekobot>
• Begasus (31e90c42): tokodon, bump to 25.04.0 (#12199)…
<nipos>
Not sure what exactly you want to do with this?Create API abstractions so that I could do like forum->GetTopics() rather than calling an HTTPS endpoint and parsing the response by hand?
<kallisti5[m]>
tossing anubis infront of trac as well. Those are the two things that suffer
<nephele>
pretty much yeah. We have a JSON kit in the haiku api, and the netservices kit. We can feed the (already existing) api descriptions in a generator, and it will make us an api client we can then use. and we can choose our boundary like we want basically
<nephele>
could be directly "native" code that maps to a native class, with synchronous or asynchronous responses as you'd like
<nipos>
If it works,it probably makes building native applications easier.On the other hand,getting it to work might be more work than working with the API directly.
<nephele>
yeah but there are lots of things that use the api descriptions
<nephele>
so getting this to work once would be a huge benefit
<nephele>
there are lots of generators, so we can probably write a haiku one
<nephele>
they have severall cpp based ones already aswell
<nephele>
nielx[m]: care to comment? :)
<nephele>
kallisti5[m]: would be interesting if we can see how stable trac becomes after this in comparison
<nephele>
or cgit
<nephele>
or cgit
<nipos>
Never worked with this OpenAPI thing before but seeing so many existing C++ generators makes me think it must be possible and maybe not even as difficult as I initially thought to write a Haiku-specific one
<kallisti5[m]>
add a "sha256_donation": "true" setting to help support the development of anubis
<nephele>
oof
<kallisti5[m]>
lol
<kallisti5[m]>
it raises interesting questions
<nephele>
well, i mean, it could be a client setting... if you really wanted to
<nipos>
Support the development of Haiku,not Anubis lol
<kallisti5[m]>
yeah.. (checkbox) donate cpu time
<nephele>
your're basically donating a part of your electricity bill
<nephele>
inefficiently :)
<kallisti5[m]>
disabled by default
<kallisti5[m]>
i mean, you're spending it anyway
<kallisti5[m]>
(to make sure you'
<kallisti5[m]>
you're not a bot)
<nipos>
Right,the work is done anyway,why not use it for something productive rather than wasting it?
<nephele>
Let's make login tokins valid as a way to bypass anubis
<kallisti5[m]>
yup
<nephele>
crypto isn't productive
<nephele>
why not do some work for seti at home with those calculations instead?
<nephele>
fold some proteins
<Begasus[m]>
eeps: Could not find a configuration file for package "Qt6" that is compatible with requested version "6.8.0". :P
<Begasus[m]>
it's starting to happen ...
<nipos>
Crypto is very productive in that it makes you earn money
<Peppersawce>
Eh, maybe trick it to use an earlier version
<nephele>
nipos: so does other form of fraud
<Peppersawce>
Just because it doesn't accept it by default doesn't mean it can't use it... sometimes, at least
<Begasus[m]>
already did on another laptop earlier Peppersawce , it worked, so I'll patch this for Tokodon
<Peppersawce>
Neat :D
<Begasus[m]>
but at one point I guess this won't work anymore
<Peppersawce>
And that's an issue for a future Begasus
<Peppersawce>
Or hopefully, some extra porter ;)
<Begasus[m]>
not localy :P
<nipos>
nephele: Crypto isn't automatically fraud.There are some fraud offers,like with real money as well,but the majority isn't
<Begasus[m]>
already got 8.6.3 up and running here ;)
<nephele>
nipos: in my book it is
<Peppersawce>
Cool, cool, thankfully Qt has been working nicely on Haiku for a long time
<x512[m]>
kallisti5: Does it work on WebPositive?
<kallisti5[m]>
x512: nephele said it did
<nephele>
yes, anubis works in webpositive
<nipos>
It's really a shame that Coinhive is dead.Those awful scraper bots could have earned a lot of cryptos for website owners lol
<nephele>
kallisti5[m]: maybe folding@home if you "optionally" would donate cpu time
<Begasus[m]>
Peppersawce, 3dEyes: mentioned at the forum 6.8* would brake things (1) and I still have to trick it to build qt6_base because of an error on the haiku plugins (2), so not going to upstream the work to haikuports for now :)
<Begasus[m]>
but so far things have been running fine here, even QtCreator 6.0.1 with 6.8.3 is working fine
<nephele>
kallisti5[m]: can we decrease the difficulty somewhat though? it's been like 1min or something from my main desktop...
<kallisti5[m]>
yeah... I was just thinking that. It takes my Ryzen 9 like 25 seconds sometimes
<kallisti5[m]>
I think that if we drop it too much it might be less effective though
<nephele>
let's drop it down to 4 or 3 and see
<Peppersawce>
Ouch, the silver lining is a lot of people are using Qt6 on Haiku so more people can contribute to an eventual fix @Begasys
<kallisti5[m]>
nephele: yeah. 4 feels like a better setting. One sec
<Begasus[m]>
right Peppersawce and I'm moving things to Qt6 where I can, so it's just a matter of time before we run into the wall on the version
<Begasus[m]>
and seeing the tight integrations between KDE and Qt ...
<Peppersawce>
Let's hope it goes as smoothly as possible
<kallisti5[m]>
difficulty is now 4... the difference between 5 and 4 is huge :-\
<kallisti5[m]>
hopefully it's still enough
<nephele>
makes sense the way the difficulties are implementeed
<Begasus[m]>
qt_policy(SET QTP0004 NEW) (dealbreaker atm for Tokodon)
<Begasus[m]>
"This policy was introduced in Qt 6.8. It causes the build system to generate an extra qmldir file for each additional directory that contains QML files in a QML module."
<nipos>
I finally had some success locating when the reboot issues started to appear,but it doesn't make sense at all
<Peppersawce>
Out of curiosity, this Anubis thing would effectively block legacy pcs from accessing those sites, right?
<Peppersawce>
Like, let's say, a P-III running Haiku + Webpositive
<Peppersawce>
Not "block" as in actually hard-blocking it, more like it would take so much time it's not worth it
<nipos>
Solving the challenge doesn't take too long,even on older hardware.The bigger problem I see is with browsers with no Javascript or very basic Javascript implementations
<Peppersawce>
Better than I thought then, imo they're not sites you'd wanna go to from old machines anyway
<nipos>
Trac and cgit used to work very well with Netsurf and similar stuff
<Peppersawce>
Netsurf would be a no go then?
<nipos>
Yes,it doesn't have Javascript
<Peppersawce>
Aw
<nipos>
One could configure the webserver to let Netsurf,Dillo,links,w3m,elinks and similar stuff pass without running Anubis,but then bots may try their user agent and start scraping again.
<Peppersawce>
Yeah, not worth it
<nipos>
Honestly,it's probably enough to limit Anubis to only Chrome user agents because all bots are faking Chrome user agents anyway,but that may change at any time if they notice that the blocking is based on that
<Peppersawce>
It's enough of an unwarranted headache for devs as is, I feel it's best as-is, a one and done solution that's more future proof
<nipos>
like Cloudflare in any case.
<nipos>
I'm not sure what to think about it.On the one hand,these AI idiots are wasting our valuable donation resources and need to be fought back.On the other hand,solutions like Anubis further lock down the free and open web and gatekeep which browsers are allowed,which,in a perfect world,shouldn't be neccessary.But given the current situation,it's probably the best thing we can do.Better than corporate gatekeepers
<nipos>
*Better than corporate gatekeepers like Cloudflare in any case
<Peppersawce>
AI was a mistake :P
<nipos>
Absolutely
<nipos>
I hope they go bankrupt rather sooner than later
<Peppersawce>
Same, it feels just like another tool for dumbing down the masses
<jezek2>
nipos: ah Anubis, I've implemented support for that in FixProxy recently, is that gaining a lot of traction?
<Peppersawce>
Apparently a lot of major opensource projects are using it as a shield against AI scrapers @jezek2
<nipos>
Yes,many open-source projects use it now to protect their infrastructure against AI bots
<nipos>
But if it's supported by FixProxy,that means older non-JS browsers still have a way to access the content,that's great
<jezek2>
from what I've understood the PoW is meant to be a temporary thing, they want to check for actual browser features, which would be bad, I hope they will allow for the PoW at least as a fallback
<jezek2>
I don't understand why the AI scrappers don't follow basic networking ethics
<nipos>
Removing the PoW would be bad for the sites it's trying to protect as well.Nevermind,the AI idiots can simply use a real Firefox or Chrome to download the content
<jezek2>
like what is the point of requesting the same URL many many times in a short period of time? it won't change...
<jezek2>
haven't they heard of caching or something :D
<nipos>
I don't understand that either
<nipos>
It's like they're DDoSing small websites with the full power of the AWS infrastructure
<Peppersawce>
Malicious tools don't care about ethics
<Peppersawce>
Their creators probably have the same ethics are malware devs
<Peppersawce>
*as
<nipos>
They're malicious as fuck.They also pretend stuff like copyright and intellectual property doesn't exist and simply scrape everything.With their scraping of user-generated social media content,they also pretend that GDPR doesn't exist.
<Peppersawce>
Ticket preview doesn't work on the main site anymore btw
<Peppersawce>
But I guess that's an expected side effect
<nipos>
Yeah,the website server needs to be whitelisted to not get a Anubis response
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<nephele>
jezek2: probably because they have severall nodes that scrap concurently and dont communicate
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<Peppersawce>
BeScreenCapture doesn't record audio :(
<Peppersawce>
Am I missing any codecs or is that intended?
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<Peppersawce>
Also iirc @nipos is the person working on it atm
<nipos>
You can download hpkgs from the Releases page or built your own using make package
<nipos>
Yes,I'm the maintainer :)
<Peppersawce>
:D
<scanty>
ah, thanks. I will check it out.
<Begasus[m]>
Peppersawce: NeoChat/Quaternion are matrix clients, don't think they do AIM :)
<scanty>
probably will try NeoChat, as my coding buddy is on linux.
<scanty>
so that should be available to him
<Begasus[m]>
There is also Element
<Begasus[m]>
did I get that right?
<scanty>
mmm lots of choices.
<Peppersawce>
Heh, fair point @Begasus, I'm out of touch with IMs
<Peppersawce>
Telegram also works if you're into that
<Begasus[m]>
Telegram* (that was it)
<nipos>
A friend also using Linux told me the official AIM clients work fine in Wine,so that's also a option ;)
<scanty>
but i thought AIM was phased out
<scanty>
unless using a different server.
<scanty>
(than the AOL one)
<nipos>
Correct,you need a unofficial server
<scanty>
oscar, i think.
<nipos>
PhoenixIM works rather good,it's the default in BeAIM and can also be used in the Windows AIM clients
<Begasus[m]>
on KDE rooms they are already talking about Qt 6.9.0 and 6.10.0 :D
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<nipos>
cgit broken again?
<Begasus[m]>
who pulled the plug now!? ;)
<kallisti5[m]>
looking..
<nipos>
I have to correct my findings about the broken system reboots btw.I tested multiple hrevs on my laptop,but the laptop only hangs sometimes,while sometimes it works.My desktop computer reliably hangs at reboot starting with hrev58768, not hrev58770 as I initially thought
<x512[m]>
So it is not only for me and Nvidia driver is not a victim?
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<OscarL>
hello folks.
<nipos>
No,happening with legacy Nvidia driver (desktop) and Intel HD Graphics (laptop) here and doesn't seem related to graphics at all
<OscarL>
nipos: I've noticed that issue with system not powering down properly too (even on VMware). Just double checked, and at least hrev58815 64 bits seems to shutdown fine (on VMware).
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<nipos>
Shutdown works fine for me too,only rebooting hangs
<OscarL>
mmm, let me recheck then.
<nipos>
First noticed that on hrev58815 and then found out that older versions already had the issue
<OscarL>
yeah, seems I missremembered and it was indeed rebooting (and not shutdown) the one where I saw that issue too. Yep... still the same on hrev58815.
<nipos>
kallisti5: You might want to also put the git. subdomain behind Anubis
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<kallisti5[m]>
oooooooh. good call! I forgot that's a different one!
<Begasus[m]>
Hola OscarL !
<OscarL>
kallisti5[m]: hello!, and while you're here: the "Activity" tab for tickets got broken after the anubis thing :-P (also, the mailing list one hasn't worked for ages).
<OscarL>
Hey there Begasus[m]! :-D
<x512[m]>
Bad Gateway now.
<nipos>
Mailing list works here
<nipos>
For the Activity tab,the website server needs to be whitelisted in Anubis
<OscarL>
nipos: it didn't the first time I clicked on it... now it does. weird.
<kallisti5[m]>
OscarL: I have a feeling it might be you're getting a cookie after visiting trac which fixes it
<OscarL>
nipos: regarding the reboot issue... FWIW, on 32 bits, works ok up to at least hrev58760. (I was bisecting a different issue there, can't boot anything newer than 58766 in 32 bits VMware :-D)
<nipos>
I know,it starts at 58768
<nipos>
Wasted the whole day building and testing multiple hrevs.
<OscarL>
kallisti5[m]: doesn't seems to be the case, I can browse Trac now, but revisiting haiku-os.org still doesn't shows anything on the "tickets updates" activity tab.
<scanty>
hi OscarL
<kallisti5[m]>
for now, i'm a solid "much rather have trac up" position :-)
<OscarL>
no biggie, bringing it up just in case :-D
<kallisti5[m]>
I might just remove that tab on the site tbh..
<OscarL>
hello scanty!
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<Begasus[m]>
scanty not changing the icon for Konversation atm, so far Chat-O-Matic is a wip, and the official icon for Konversation is not as nice imho :)
<kallisti5[m]>
nipos: good call on git.haiku-os.org. Anibus wasn't doing anything since git.haiku-os.org traffic just bypassed the Anibus
<kallisti5[m]>
cgit much, much faster now
<Begasus[m]>
it's an icon from zumi's work
<nipos>
Why not whitelist the website server or add a permanent key that the website server sends to the trac server instead of completely removing it?
<kallisti5[m]>
nipos: the request isn't coming from the website server though... it's client side
<kallisti5[m]>
javascript loads the tickets. So your browser is doing it
<kallisti5[m]>
err.. is that something on netlify's side?
<nipos>
Yes,seems it is
<kallisti5[m]>
waddlesplash: would know :-)
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* kallisti5[m]
lookin
<x512[m]>
Chat link preview is broken, but not that important.
<nipos>
Yes,that's one of the intended side effects of Anubis.It blocks any request that doesn't run Javascript to pass the challenge
<OscarL>
Begasus[m]: got Python 3.13.3 built, still trying to update the list of tests that need to be disable, the one that fails, etc. Many seems to fail if the workdir is on RAMFS, so I need to double check things after I move it to the SSD.
<OscarL>
Begasus[m]: just giving you a heads up in case you see a PR for 3.13 over the weekend.
<kallisti5[m]>
yeah, i just checked netlify and there's nothing defined there... so that must be all that does it
<OscarL>
Begasus[m]: btw, the HaikuPorts issue about pip crashing should be closed, I think.
<nipos>
Hm,then we can't put a Anubis bypass key there as that would be visible publicly and can be abused by the bots.Whitelisting the Netlify IP ranges may or may not work.It's AWS,don't know if they keep the same IP addresses for longer
<kallisti5[m]>
yeah. I'll think on it. Some combo of allowlisting the ips or figuring out some way to hide the key would solve it
<nipos>
...or you exclude specifically that one path the Website requests from Anubis.The bots won't hammer the exact same URL thousands of times a second,do they?
<Begasus[m]>
thanks on the heads-up OscarL , meanwhile PySide is build (shiboken detected fine with python3.10) :)
<kallisti5[m]>
whooo cgit is at .5 vcpu. I haven't seen it that low in years 🥳
<Begasus[m]>
I think I'm missing some Qt6 packages also (checking with Qt6 and configure output for PySide6) :P
<jmairboeck>
nipos, kallisti5[m]: that's an RSS feed link, maybe you should exclude that anyway because that may be used by non-browser clients also. (I hope the scrapers don't use that actually.)
<nipos>
Uhm yes,right
<kallisti5[m]>
jmairboeck: the AI scrapers are crafty. They'll try modifying the user agent, and scraping different things until they find something to extract data from
<kallisti5[m]>
(they also jump IP's a LOT based on what we have seen
<nipos>
cgit is really fast now \o/
<nipos>
By the way,does Anubis use a lot of server resources?
<kallisti5[m]>
yup. it was a good call. Thanks nephele ! :-)
<kallisti5[m]>
not really. It's all client-side
<kallisti5[m]>
anubis using 8% cpu, and 121MiB of ram
<nipos>
Cool,so that really effectively reduces the needed resources :)
<kallisti5[m]>
yup! It solves a big problem we have had for a while. I'm stick blocking bad ips, but can remove all the cloud ip blocks since this sorts them out well
<nekobot>
• Begasus (9bddc7e6): konversation, bump to 25.04.0 (#12204)
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<nipos>
I have now verified that https://codeberg.org/haiku/haiku/commit/2e46e092dbb7b2dd4b9f6b1e62c6eeddd9a2259b is *really* the commit that breaks rebooting.A Haiku build using the latest source with only that specific commit reverted can reboot just fine.Does anyone have an idea how to fix it?I'm not that much into kernel development and input server stuff and honestly,I don't have an idea.
<OscarL>
seems like it affects HID and VMs only, no wonder I didn't noticed on bare-metal (still using PS/2).
<Begasus[m]>
It hangs on the other laptop (nightly) also when rebooting (bare metal)
<nipos>
I run Haiku only as bare-metal and notice it
<jmairboeck>
I did notice it in VirtualBox too. It took a few seconds to show the "Rebooting" message before finally doing it.
<OscarL>
nipos: maybe x512[m] can give some hints.
<jmairboeck>
using USB tablet as mouse device
<nipos>
Desktop with USB mouse and USB keyboard reliably hangs.Laptop with PS/2 touchpad,USB keyboard and USB mouse sometimes hangs permanently,sometimes works after a few seconds
<x512[m]>
nipos: That is strange. It is intended to do an opposite effect: do not make input_server unkillable when waiting for input.
<nipos>
I don't understand a lot of that either.But what I can say is that the mouse doesn't respond when the system hangs,so maybe the input_server is already stopped then.
<x512[m]>
Maybe it revealed some other bug after input become stoppable.
<nipos>
Again,I'm not a kernel developer and don't understand a lot of this.It may have reasons and be perfectly fine to do,but to me it looks a bit odd
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<x512[m]>
nipos: Are bug ticket already reported?
<nipos>
No
<Begasus[m]>
closing down here
<Begasus[m]>
cu peeps!
<x512[m]>
Then it need to be opened with commit reference.
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<nephele>
kallisti5[m]: i'll try to investiagte the attachment downloading later
<kallisti5[m]>
Thanks. I think web+ isn't passing cookies along for direct download links
<kallisti5[m]>
(or something.. unsure)
<nephele>
with the old netservices backend i could just use an env var to debug :P
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<Habbie>
chromebook will load the debian bootloader, quitely fails (back to boot screen) with haiku 58815. guess i'll try b5 next
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<nephele>
kallisti5[m]: I can download attachments from trac
<nephele>
are there specific attachments that don't work?
<nephele>
oh okay, the file downloaded is the anubis html
<Habbie>
ah, fun failure mode
<nephele>
it's probably a cookie failure
<Habbie>
i think that was suspected above
<nephele>
yep
<nephele>
I'm investigating this right now
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<Habbie>
aw. beta5 also doesn't boot on the chromebook
<nephele>
I'd be suprised of anything booting on a chromebook :P
<Habbie>
i saw posts of people doing it
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<eetlotsgloo[m]>
<Habbie> "chromebook will load the..." <- Funny, I just tried to get Haiku on a Chromebook. Boots just fine but doesn't see eMMC. An older Chromebook with mSATA will probably work just fine
<Habbie>
how did you boot it?
<eetlotsgloo[m]>
ISO image on an IODD USB thing that shows up as an optical drive
<Habbie>
ah
<eetlotsgloo[m]>
Easier/faster than constantly overwriting or keeping track of flash drives
<Habbie>
yes
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<Habbie>
eetlotsgloo[m], uefi or seabios?
<eetlotsgloo[m]>
UEFI
<Habbie>
ack. i'm on seabios for now
<Habbie>
trying to figure out if GRUB can be helpful here
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<eetlotsgloo[m]>
I haven't had to mess with GRUB much since my Gentoo days
<eetlotsgloo[m]>
Sorry
<Habbie>
hehe
<Habbie>
no worries
<gordonjcp>
eh
<gordonjcp>
heh
<gordonjcp>
good old Gentoo
<gordonjcp>
I tried it, but I have to admit I couldn't really see the appeal
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<nephele>
I tried to use gentoo and set the documentation flag, that also ended in misery :)
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