* OscarL
considers turning one of the old Atom netbooks into a "router/server" thing... with a custom DNS server, web-caching-proxy, pihole, kiwix (offline wikipedia) server, forgejo, etc.
<erysdren>
that's a good idea
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<erysdren>
i wanna do something similar, but i don't have any spare PCs
<OscarL>
machines are too slow for anything else (besides some light testing of Haiku things, that I can do faster on the desktop anyway).
<OscarL>
I had been toying around using an old tablet as secondary monitor. Makes me want to use the netbook that still has a screen in that capacity too.
<erysdren>
always good to put old machines to some use rather than just junking them
<OscarL>
yeah.
<erysdren>
many americans could serve to learn that, but alas, we are a wasteful culture her
<erysdren>
here*
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<Begasus[m]>
many of the older stuff here is still good to run Haiku, just my "needs" (eg building) for some are higher then they are up to these days :)
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<OscarL>
erysdren: good thing you still have some places like https://kramden.org/ that try to get some of that "waste" and turn it into opportunities for less fortunate folks!
<Viking667>
yay! someone's alive.
<erysdren>
very true OscarL
<erysdren>
hi Viking667
<OscarL>
speaking of still being alive... Begasus[m].... got a email reply form augiedoggie :-) (still alive, just too busy).
<Begasus[m]>
hi Viking667
<Begasus[m]>
good to hear OscarL !
<Begasus[m]>
was starting to worrie
<OscarL>
yeah, same here.
<Begasus[m]>
worry(?)
<erysdren>
yea, worry
<Begasus[m]>
he's part of the furniture as we say that here (as some of us) :)
<OscarL>
lol
<OscarL>
Viking667: hello. earlier you mention you had a small tweak (related to libfossil recipe, I assume) to share, and you had a question related to docs location.
<Viking667>
OscarL: I did think of a problem with that recipe of yours.
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<Viking667>
The recipe you have moves the doc files into a better location, then _removes_ the directory ${PREFIX}/share.
<Viking667>
If the user has other files in that directory, then those files all go byebye, or the recipe falls over.
<OscarL>
for the latter, generally, "readme"'s , changlogs, faqs, etc, for a package go under: "/boot/system/documentation/packages/<name of your package here>"
<Viking667>
mmm. And in the event a user installs stuff to ${PREFIX}/share manually?
<OscarL>
Viking667: the recipe works on a chroot environment. there are NO other stuff besides what the project being built had installed there.
<OscarL>
we remove such empty dirs just so they don't end up existing inside the resulting .hpkg files.
<Viking667>
Okay, that sounds like that solves the problem then. I thought it might have operated on a live environment. For the uninstall stanza, does the moved files get removed from the correct directory?
<Viking667>
s/does/do/
<OscarL>
only the .hpkg file is removed.
<Viking667>
(and its installed contents, presumably)
<OscarL>
in Haiku.... the "package files" (.hpkg) are never unpacked (unlike a .deb on Debian, for example)
<OscarL>
they are just "mounted".... think of them as a union/overlay filesystem
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<OscarL>
like mounting an .squashfs in some linux distros.
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<OscarL>
Viking667: that's why we have read-only and read-write locations for stuff (besides the "usual" split between system vs user locations)
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<OscarL>
erysdren: yeah, and the "PackageFS" setups needed symlinks where needed so it "looks" like stuff got unpacked, but it really never does that. One of the reasons why installing Haiku is so fast compared to other systems. Installer basically just copies a bunch of .hpkg around, instead of having to unpack a bazzilion files.
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<Viking667>
huh. so the compile process should default to /boot/home for installing from source, but the recipe can suggest /boot/system as a prefix?
<OscarL>
the "default compile process" will depend on each individual project. That's why on the recipe we tell it to use "$prefix", which *might* be /boot/system (when you install package normally)...
<OscarL>
but can also be something else, like "/boot/home/config/" when you install packages as, for example: "pkgman --home libfossil"
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<Viking667>
hm. The bit I'm not getting is, how are those .hpkg packages composed after a compile is run?
<OscarL>
.hpkg files are created in a way that you can install them in both ways (albeit not all software plays 100% nice when installed elsewhere than /boot/system, specially ports)
<OscarL>
think of it this way (I may be off a bit, others will correct me where needed, hopefully)...
<OscarL>
a chroot is setup to isolate the project being built... so, among other things.... its build process can only access stuff it has declared as dependencies.
<OscarL>
when the "INSTAL()" part of the recipe is reached (usually calling "make install" or equivalent), the project's "install" routines install stuff in *that* chroot.
<OscarL>
(thanks to whatever $prefix and stuff was previously set)
<OscarL>
after that...
<OscarL>
the HaikuPorter tool collects whatever it finds in that chroot, and creates packages acoording to the instructions it got from the .recipe (or just a single .hpkg one with all the content if no special instructions where given).
<OscarL>
Viking667: the "default compile process" for each given project only matters when building stuff *outside* of HaikuPorter's infrastructure, say... for when you are just compiling a program for your self, and you don't plan to re-distribute the binaries.
<OscarL>
if a recipe can just do the equivalent of: "./configure --prefix=$prefix && make && make install", that's great.
<OscarL>
but the "default" --prefix values a project has, from a user's perspective/use-case ("~/config/non-packaged/" is best on Haiku) will be different from the one that's needed for creating the .hpkg files
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<OscarL>
similar to defaulting to "/usr/local", but allowing changing the --prefix so package creator/maintainers can do their thing.
<OscarL>
regarding the transparently mounted .hpkg files: mount any Haiku install from either a different Haiku install (or from a new enough to have BFS support Linux distro), and you notice that "/system/" looks WAY emptier than when you boot the same partition :-)
<OscarL>
re-reading logs to see if I missed something (as usual): Viking667, if by "uninstall stanza" you mean something like "make uninstall", then yes, it should remove the correct files (from wheever --prefix was set).
<OscarL>
uninstalling .hpkg "just" inactivates the package, and moves it away from /system/packages (or ~/config/packages) into an "administrative/state-<timestamp>" folder, so you can revert the uninstall/upgrade if needed.
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<OscarL>
window-shopping again for a "refurbished" AMD 4700S board (basically a PS5 without graphics: 8c/16t, 16 GB GDDR6), 3 months warranty. Pros: beats the hell out of my Phenom, for around the equivalent to USD 135. Cons: CPU and MEM soldered, no NVMe, only 2 SATA ports, LAN goes over USB, only one PCIe slot :-/
<OscarL>
on the other hand, a new 5600GT (cpu with graphics) goes for about $145 to 185 and still need to add mobo+ram.
* OscarL
goes back to tinkering with old computers.
<Begasus[m]>
enjoy :)
<erysdren>
well, just hit 3:30 am. goodnight, all
<OscarL>
sleep well erysdren.
<erysdren>
<3
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<Viking667>
how do I view active mounts in Haiku? Simply running "mount" only gives me a usage message, unlike the Linux/BSD/Solaris commands.
<OscarL>
mountvolume
<Viking667>
Ah, right. Thank you.
<OscarL>
see its -h for details.
<OscarL>
doesnt seems to show PackageFS or RAMFS mounts though (in case you were looking for those).
<Viking667>
Yah, that's exactly what I was looking for.
<OscarL>
to get a better high level overview, you might want to start with "ls -1l /"
<OscarL>
you'll see how things are symlinked at least.
<OscarL>
From Tracker, if you select the "config" folder under /boot/home/, and ask it to "Get info" (via context-menu, or by shortcut), you'll see that it says:
<OscarL>
"Filesystem: packagefs [...]" at the bottom of the dialog/window that appears.
<OscarL>
you'll see the same for /boot/system, for example.
<Viking667>
Ahhh. I misread the command you gave. Here, that looks like "ls -1| /"
<OscarL>
not sure if there's any utility that shows those mounts, though.
<OscarL>
if you are curious about .hpkg, you can open them with "Expander" (from Tracker's "Open with" sub menu), or with Beezer if you install that app (again, via "Open with").
<OscarL>
you'll see that their content can be relative to whatever 'prefix' is used at install/activation time.
<Viking667>
I've looked at /boot/system/package-links/
<Viking667>
... and that seems to list every installed package, if not every single available package.
<OscarL>
that's part of the "activation" of packages. notice that everyting in there is read only.
<Viking667>
I also noticed (when I looked at vision-0.10.6-2) that all I saw was a haiku, linking to two directories up.
<Viking667>
fossil-2.25 had three links, which look like package links
<Viking667>
i.e. haiku, lib~libz and lib~libssl
<OscarL>
theres a ton of "magic" (or rather "juggling") of symlinks around to make everything work as intended. I'm not that knowledgeable (what a difficult word to get right) on the details.
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<OscarL>
Viking667: do you know if setting "-sysconfdir" and "--localstatedir" as any effect when calling ./configure for libfossil? I just used those parameters on our recipe because I saw them used in the AlpineLinux recipe for libfossil.
<OscarL>
now I'm questioning if they have any effect at all (as with --mandir). Can't find much grepping libfossil sources for them so... might be better to just remove them from the recipe.
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<OscarL>
s/as/has/ (... any effect ...)
<Begasus[m]>
bbl
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<Viking667>
Whoops, sorry. I was involved with other projects.
<OscarL>
no worries, rebuild the packages without using those flags... all seems still be OK.
<OscarL>
had to make a minor correction to the recipe on my PR anyway, so I though about just clearing those up too.
<Viking667>
mmm hmm. I'm aware that Stephan's pretty busy 99% of the time he's not sleeping.
<OscarL>
don't worry. packages seems OK, I can't find anything related to state dirs or "etc" in the sources anyway.
<OscarL>
can add those parameters back in the future if/when needed :-)
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<Viking667>
I suspect the only thing that's "in the wrong place" is the fnc.1 manpage.
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<avanspector[m]>
waddlesplash: pulkomandy: x512:hi, are there any plans to exposing futexes? Even wasm has them and it's kinda crucial for the kind of software I work on, and would love to get working on haiku
<avanspector[m]>
This will also help a lot with porting software written in Go and Zig
<phschafft>
'the kind of software I work on'?
* Viking667
departs for now
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<avanspector[m]>
<phschafft> "'the kind of software I work on'..." <- In this instance, I maintain the standard library of the Odin language on Haiku, which is similarly to Zig and Go, builds its sync primitives upon futexes
<avanspector[m]>
Currently, we emulate futexes in userspace which understandably has a toll on performance
<avanspector[m]>
OscarL: Yeah... given how much software gets added every day on Haiku one might think at some point the position will change
<OscarL>
aren't pthread_mutex a valid alternative? (a quick search online seems to indicate that's whats used on Darwin for example instead of futexes).
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<OscarL>
seems OpenBSD has futex, but FreeBSD seems to use pthread_mutex for that too.
<OscarL>
(if I'm reading things right... not always a given :-P)
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<OscarL>
"The futex emulation in FreeBSD is taken from NetBSD and further extended by us." (guess I read too fast)
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<avanspector[m]>
Yeah, futexes are basically everywhere at this point
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<OscarL>
(I think last time I paid any real attention to locking primitives was in early 2000s, after reading about "benaphores" on and even older BeOS Newsletter :-D)
<OscarL>
s/and/an/
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<andreaallegri>
hey
<andreaallegri>
the last beos collection is of 2020 ...
<waddlesplash>
avanspector[m]: I still do not see any reason to do so. As I said last time, I can see a case for a single int32 size mutex but the flags it contains would purely be an implementation detail.
<waddlesplash>
avanspector[m]: But even that I don't know if it's worth it. Because WebKit implements that totally in user space with the BlockingPool system. I hear that there are implementations of that same idea in Rust and they work well
<waddlesplash>
avanspector[m]: Haiku is quite strict in general about not adding nonstandard APIs unless there is really no way to accomplish the same thing some other way or there is some real benefit gained by adding it. In this case I don't see the benefit (particularly since BlockingPools exist which would be superior to basically any use of futex outside the C stdlib), and furthermore Haiku's internal APIs that resemble futexes do not
<waddlesplash>
have the same API as these futex APIs on other OSes.
<phschafft>
I'm not sure what futexes solve here that can't be solved otherwise.
<OscarL>
Begasus[m]: what's going on with https://github.com/haikuports/haikuports/pull/12105 ? why there are 10 commits for "just a version bump"? maybe that user keeps re-using the same branch (or not using one)?
<waddlesplash>
ah seems I misremembered the name, it's really ParkingLot
<phschafft>
I mean it might be easier to port software that uses them. sure. but if that is all there is to it then one could just write a bit of code that can be loaded into those packages.
<phschafft>
a libfutex ;)
<Begasus[m]>
OscarL: that's "only" 10 commits, been receiving (or bombing) emails from a few others which should be straightforward :)
<Begasus[m]>
ah, should really check that one jmairboeck
<Begasus[m]>
haven't fiddled much with 32bit lately
<jmairboeck>
Begasus[m]: there will be some work for quite a few KDE recipes when this is merged and deployed.
<Begasus[m]>
yeah, saw the email yesterday
<Begasus[m]>
just switched branch to your PR for haikuporter
<jmairboeck>
you could maybe test it with one of them
<Begasus[m]>
will give it some checks
<Begasus[m]>
was my first thought :)
<Begasus[m]>
updating local repos on 32bit
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<Begasus[m]>
pulls in to take a peek at the email :)
<jmairboeck>
ah, extra_cmake_modules_doc didn't actually use $secondaryArchSuffix
<pol>
Is it possible there is something missing in the Networking configuration of KTorrent? I tried all interfaces in settings & restarting but it will not connect to Seeds. I'm using Wi-Fi Network connection.
<jmairboeck>
so that is already done ;)
<jmairboeck>
and is probably broken now on 32 bit
<Begasus[m]>
ckecking karchive6
<jmairboeck>
that one will have its REQUIRES removed, or the main package will need to provide something without the suffix if the REQUIRES should be retained
<Begasus[m]>
ECM?
<jmairboeck>
karchive6
<jmairboeck>
karchive6_doc
<Begasus[m]>
argh :(
<jmairboeck>
the goal is that the resulting packages are identical to the ones built on 64 bit, and if you include a $secondaryArchSuffix in REQUIRES, that won't be the case
<Begasus[m]>
not looking forward on adding suffix-less PROVIDES in every recipe
<PetePete>
I see everything here is order.
<PetePete>
in* order
<OscarL>
pol: if normal http trafic works, double check the torrent you're trying to use actually has active seeds, then maybe check ktorrent's bittorret protocol options (DHT, PEX, and allow encryption/cyphering). I don't use ktorrent, but those are usuals settings to check on other clients.
<jmairboeck>
is the REQUIRES really needed for the doc packages?
<Begasus[m]>
jmairboeck: $secondaryArchSuffix will be empty anyway on 64bit
<Begasus[m]>
no, it pure QCH documentation
<jmairboeck>
exactly, that's the problem. It isn't on 32 bit, which means it's different
<pol>
OscarL I was reading the logs, you can do wifi hotspot and connect the laptop with that to avoid system crashing with USB tathering.
<Begasus[m]>
then you'll end up with karchive6 + karchive6_x86 on 32bit in PROVIDES which in my view doesn't make sense
<jmairboeck>
I would suggest to remove the REQUIRES_doc entry then. When using SoftwareUpdater or pkgman full-sync, they shouldn't get out of sync practically.
<Begasus[m]>
only thing would be to drop requirement on the base package then
<OscarL>
pol: sadly, no wifi adapter in this old desktop (which is what I use the most), but thanks for the suggestion!
<jmairboeck>
they are built from the same recipe, so always updated together
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<Begasus[m]>
yeah, shouldn't be a big loss
<gordonjcp>
afternoon
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<OscarL>
pol: and is mostly my phone just randomly rebooting itself more than the system crashing.
<Begasus[m]>
and maybe even handy for those wanting to check the documentation without installing the packages :)
<jmairboeck>
at least as long as we aren't deduplicating the "any" packages on the server side and one of the builders failed to build an updated version :)
<Begasus[m]>
hi PetePete gordonjcp pol zardshard :)
<Begasus[m]>
for the most things, I think we as haikuports team try to make sure it builds on beta5, so we should be good there jmairboeck :)
<OscarL>
related to packages and their "docs", /me should remember to either file a ticket for openssl / openssl_man "fake" dependency, or just remove the SUPPLEMENTS from that recipe.
<jmairboeck>
ok, thanks Begasus[m]
<Begasus[m]>
OK looks fine, new package is clean from suffix and replaces the suffixed one on the system
<Begasus[m]>
so it "works" jmairboeck :)
<pol>
I was getting system crash KDL when USB tathering when there was sudden disconnect- the cable/ connector was faulty. Tried with different cable?
<jmairboeck>
OscarL: I never really understood how SUPPLEMENTS is supposed to work ...
<jmairboeck>
thanks Begasus[m]
<Begasus[m]>
OscarL: there is an update for openssl if you intend to tackle that :)
<Begasus[m]>
it "supplements" the given package jmairboeck :)
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<Begasus[m]>
already updated curl earlier, seeems to be ok
<jmairboeck>
I'm going to merge it then and ask waddlesplash to deploy it to the builders
<OscarL>
pol: ah, yes.. those KDL were frequent for me in the past too when testing some older phones (on bare-metal Haiku).
<Begasus[m]>
ps, for the KDE frameworks, next friday there should be the release of 6.13.0, so I'll do that then in one row
<Begasus[m]>
(if deployed)*
<OscarL>
jmairboeck: that supplements does weird things currently, like... openssl_man gets installed the first time along with openssl, then you can just uninstall the "_man" subpackage, but when you try to "pkgman install --home foobar"... it forcess you to re-install openssl_man for some reason :-D
<jmairboeck>
+1 Begasus[m]
<Begasus[m]>
isn't that normal behaviour OscarL ? openssl wasn't installed I gather in --home target?
<OscarL>
no, it is in system.
<OscarL>
why it wants me to install _man when I'm doing unrelated stuff in --home?
<jmairboeck>
I have one more change planned for haikuporter, that is disallowing PACKAGE_NAME and PACKAGE_VERSION for the main package, but that is more of a policy thing and won't affect the builders.
<Begasus[m]>
well, it doesn't take that into account when installing in home
<Begasus[m]>
because _man suppliments the base package?
<OscarL>
but it doesn't complains or even mentions it when I install stuff on system?
<Begasus[m]>
I guess it's the same if you install a _devel package to HOME
<OscarL>
and SUPPLEMENTS is not REQUIRES.
<OscarL>
I should be able to NOT have it installed.
<Begasus[m]>
no it isn't :)
<OscarL>
and you can... you can uninstall it just fine...
<Begasus[m]>
it's the way it's written I guess?
<OscarL>
until it "complains" again :-)
<Begasus[m]>
did you check to install a _devel package without it's base in home?
<Begasus[m]>
the function behind it is quite simular I guess
<OscarL>
I think it will be better to try to write a proper bug report than try to explain the sutuation one line at a time on IRC.
<Begasus[m]>
comments will be quite simular then here I guess :P (only takes longer), but reaches more attendees
<OscarL>
will be easier for readers to see where the issue is.
<Begasus[m]>
+1
<OscarL>
(and to me to better explain myself)
<Begasus[m]>
OK, without changes in the recipe haikuporter will now raise a POLICY error/warning
<Begasus[m]>
so I could switch, just will have to disable builds in strickt mode :)
<Begasus[m]>
or add an alias to take care of that
<Begasus[m]>
jmairboeck: this "--with-included-regex" doesn't seem to do the trick for the crashing ./conftest in latest apache?
<Begasus[m]>
https://bpa.st/BVPQ not sure if it's the same one mentioned in that issue?
<OscarL>
jmairboeck: re dissallowing PACKAGE_{NAME,VERSION} for main/base package. +1.
<Begasus[m]>
OscarL: I guess we got our wires crossed :) you were "NOT" installing openssl in home for this right?
<OscarL>
no
<OscarL>
some unrelated package.
<Begasus[m]>
ah, I stand corrected then, my bad :(
<OscarL>
and pkgman kept insisting in wanting to (re)-install openssl_man :-/
<Begasus[m]>
even if you drag and drop the package there?
<OscarL>
I think I even trying having openssl_man in ~/config/packages just to make it shut up. don't recall if it was effective.
<OscarL>
might not have been, because I'm currently have openssl3 and openssl3_man on systems :-D
<OscarL>
*even tried having (man, mi anglish zuks)
<Begasus[m]>
heh
<Begasus[m]>
just did a check with drag&drop NovelWriter package in home... it wanted to install other packages there, but they are only installed if not installed in system
<OscarL>
sounds correct.
<Begasus[m]>
yeah, that's how it should re-act I guess
<Begasus[m]>
react* :)
<OscarL>
try again, but first uninstall openssl3_man
<OscarL>
PetePete: regarding persistence and encryption... those are two independent/orthogonal concepts/features. Haiku already has "persistence": you boot from an usb-drive, install/create stuff, stuff will be there on reboot.
<Begasus[m]>
ah!
<Begasus[m]>
weird
<OscarL>
PetePete: I assume you meant "persistance" as in... some linux distros allows you to create a file where the changes made in a live environment gets saved (separated from the the base system).
<OscarL>
Begasus[m]: told you that SUPPLEMENTS is crazier than me!
<Begasus[m]>
did you try with another package the has SUPPLEMENTS in it?
<OscarL>
"inrecipe SUPLEMENTS=" not many there, and never needed any of them
<Begasus[m]>
ok, will run some checks here
<Begasus[m]>
novelwriter doesn't even mention openssl in it
<OscarL>
well, I guess at some point I might have had installed the qthaikuplugins... but didn't tried uninstalling just that.
<PetePete>
OscarL: Yes sir
<OscarL>
PetePete: in Haiku, you *can* create a file that contains a filesystem, mount that, store your secrets there, unmount, and encrypt if you want. Might not be entirely automated, but nothing that some small bash scripts can't handle.
<Begasus[m]>
doesn't do it for qt6_translations
<Begasus[m]>
hmm bad example :P
<Begasus[m]>
upstream doesn't have qt6_translations for qt-6.8.3 :)
<Begasus[m]>
but it didn't trip over it
<PetePete>
OscarL: so far, qemu on top of fully encrypted linux provides a pretty nice haiku experience
<PetePete>
I suppose I'm happy with virtualization. Best of both worlds and all
<OscarL>
PetePete: long as you have something that works well for you, great! (I just wanted to mention that volume encryption and "persistance" are not dependent on each other).
<Begasus[m]>
OscarL: I think REQUIRES_man and! SUPPLEMENTS_man is the overkill here?
<PetePete>
OscarL: Greatly appreciated
<OscarL>
PetePete: I too use mostly VMs, practicalliity beats purity. and using it this way makes the most of my old hardware.
<Begasus[m]>
building openssl3
<OscarL>
(at least until we get better drivers)
<scanty>
good afternoon, my haiku friends.
<Begasus[m]>
howdy scanty :)
<PetePete>
OscarL: I'm still willing to pitch in on occasion to build up a hardware fund for the devs/hobbyists here who make stuff work in Haiku. You guys ought to have decent hardware.
<scanty>
Hi Begasus[m]!
<OscarL>
Begasus[m]: I suspect that removing SUPPLEMENTS_man would be enough to "cure" the issue... but it might be better to report the bug at Haiku level first.
<OscarL>
Good afternoon scanty!
<PetePete>
"I am... 'SUPPLEMENTS MAN!'"
<OscarL>
:-D
<scanty>
hey OscarL! How are you feeling today?
<Begasus[m]>
doing a revbump before that OscarL , then I can react to the isssue you create :)
<Begasus[m]>
new hardware??? maybe we can send some suggestions over OscarL :D
<PetePete>
Let's ALL react! I'll go first!
<PetePete>
*confused face*
<PetePete>
*anger*
<PetePete>
*curiosity*
<Begasus[m]>
*killed the cat*
<PetePete>
*intrigue*
<PetePete>
Begleg... how you just gonna kill my cat like that? You ain't even axe me how I'm feeling today.
<Begasus[m]>
it wasn't me, it was the dog! :D
<OscarL>
scanty: a bit chilly (temps went down unexpectedly), a bit sore after doing some long walks this last few days, but otherwise... fine. Thanks for asking! Hope you're feeling good as well!
<Begasus[m]>
so, how *are* you feeling today PetePete ?
<PetePete>
I used to have a dog named Curiosity
<PetePete>
Not now, Begasus.
<PetePete>
This place is biased I tell ya!
<scanty>
chilly and raining here today, I'm feeling well today OscarL :-)
<PetePete>
Lotta love for some bloke they call "waddlesplash"...
<PetePete>
I guess you have to know people to get asked about your day around here
<PetePete>
Or be responsible for like half the code ...pfffft
<Begasus[m]>
still no go OscarL
<scanty>
PetePete: some of us have been "around" for some 20 odd years, or more
<Begasus[m]>
I guess it checks upstream depot for it's dependency
<PetePete>
Them some odd years
* OscarL
would gladly share a beer (or a scotch or two) with this crazy bunch.
<PetePete>
lol
<PetePete>
not if you knew me
<scanty>
yeah, i totally want to have a beer with OscarL
<OscarL>
:-D
<PetePete>
Let's auction that!!!
<PetePete>
You know how much money we could raise?
<PetePete>
HUNDREDS
<Begasus[m]>
I'll take one too (if it's alcohol free)
<PetePete>
Begasus[m]: No sugar added, ice cold apple juice
<scanty>
boo no alcohol ^_^ (just kidding)
<Begasus[m]>
doesn't sound bad too PetePete
<PetePete>
When My oldest comes over for game night or movie night or whatever, we break out a jar of cigars and a bottle of honey whiskey, and my youngest gets a jar of meat sticks and a bottle of apple juice.
<scanty>
Begasus[m]: are you familar with a beer called "Kwak", i think it's from Belgium
<Begasus[m]>
yes scanty :)
<scanty>
I quite like it.
<Begasus[m]>
it was a hipe way back
<scanty>
epxensive though.... $8
<scanty>
probably closer to $10 now·
<Begasus[m]>
hmm what's the dollar compared to the euro atm? ;)
<Begasus[m]>
by next week :)
<scanty>
not sure ;)
<PetePete>
abysmal as always
<OscarL>
PetePete: "jar of meat sticks"... is that some form of beef jerky?
<scanty>
hah i was wondering that as well.
<PetePete>
OscarL: yep, they look just like cigars so the little brother chews on those and sips apple juice from a whiskey glass with us
<scanty>
lols, how old is he?
<OscarL>
:-)
<PetePete>
9 years old
<PetePete>
big brother is 24
<scanty>
ah, still young and innnocent.
<PetePete>
good kids
<PetePete>
9 yr old is a tennis pro (at tournament as we speak) and competes at state level for math
<PetePete>
oldest graduated from top school. Became a programmer actually, which is funny because he went to a medical school
<scanty>
last time i played tennis was in the fall of 2000
<PetePete>
same year you found haiku?
<PetePete>
@.@
<scanty>
yeah, maybe. i was probably running BeOS at the time.
<PetePete>
I love that xkcd comic that says, "Parents, pleas talk to your kids about Linux/BSD before someone else does."
<OscarL>
last time I played tenis... was on an Atari 2600.
<PetePete>
I licked two batteries just yesterday (foreal)
<OscarL>
dunno, I always sucked at analog electronics :-)
<scanty>
OscarL: i too am better with digital circuits. analogue stuff has a lot of nasty maths that i like to stay away from.
<OscarL>
PetePete: there's a "touch tongue here" in scanty's xkcd. you should see if Randall is hiring? :-)
<OscarL>
scanty: I actually had zero issues with the math (at least when designing/analisying second-year level circuits), but actually building them... and figuring out why the *physical* circuit failed... oof...
<PetePete>
You know I would, but I just got approved for disability
<scanty>
OscarL: ah, i see. i love building things and seeing them to completion, even if it takes a long time.
<OscarL>
and then here comes the TA... puts a finger over a resistor... circuit starts working... he: "yeah... add 20 ohms to this one". me: "f**k this s**t!"
<scanty>
hehe
<Begasus[m]>
lol
* OscarL
really wishes he could have finished his Biomedical Engineering studies.
<scanty>
i did two years of EE, and two years of CS, never got a proper degree.
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<OscarL>
scanty: I did about 3 years (out of 6) of bioeng (in around 5 and a half years) before my mental health issues made me quite a second (and final time). Still miss the hell out of that, hard as hell, carreer.
<OscarL>
(later on I did about 1 and a half years out of 5 of CS before getting a job in QA automation)
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<OscarL>
Begasus[m]: re: "<Begasus[m]> still no go OscarL"... to re-cap/clarify... you rebuilt openssl3 without "SUPPLEMENTS_man", and still tries to re-install itself?
<jmairboeck>
Begasus[m]: I think that error for apache is a different one, I didn't see a check for something regex related in your pasted log
<Begasus[m]>
guess so jmairboeck , if need be I can add a report from the crash later
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<scanty>
OscarL: I understand. if i didn't have this mental illness, it would have been easy to finish my degree.
<OscarL>
scanty: still on that 730 xkcd: "oh, so you think you're such a whiz at EE 201" LOL. yeah... you win... the more I look at it, the more it makes me LOL :-)
<scanty>
hehe yeah, it's a funny one.
<OscarL>
"tear collector", FML!
<scanty>
heh, FML indeed.
<scanty>
i always wish things were different, but this is the hand i have been dealt, so i have to deal with it.
<Begasus[m]>
OscarL: rebuild without REQUIRES_man
<AlienSoldier>
a new tron in october, Disney really need money. What is next, a nex F-zero by Nintendo?
<AlienSoldier>
*new
<OscarL>
Begasus[m]: ah, thanks.
<OscarL>
scanty: True. And yet, you still can be (and are!) a positive presence. Don't forget that.
<scanty>
thanks OscarL :-)
<OscarL>
AlienSoldier: wondering when Disney will remake Fantasia.
<AlienSoldier>
OscarL i was thinking the same ting. I liked fantasia 2000
<AlienSoldier>
hopefully they will not screw it with live actor
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<AlienSoldier>
i also wish some homebrew develloper will fix fantasia on megadrive or do a proper adaptation of the movie
<OscarL>
wait... there's already a 2000 version? /me got stuck in 1940 it seems :-)
<OscarL>
ah, a sequel :-)
<AlienSoldier>
yes, it got out in 1999
<AlienSoldier>
i really loved it
<AlienSoldier>
it's like a re-imagining that is what they called it
<AlienSoldier>
7.1 on imdb, seem it got better appreciated with time, it flopped when it came out
<OscarL>
AlienSoldier: "hopefully they will not screw it with live actor"... Can't beat Samuel L. Jackson as Snow white (2026)? :-P
<AlienSoldier>
what about the 2025 one, seem it is one of the greatest flop ever
<AlienSoldier>
now i want a remake with a CGI Chevy Chase and real dwarf.
<OscarL>
heh
<AlienSoldier>
ho, that made me remember there is Sorcerer's Apprentice on atari 2600 :)
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<OscarL>
PetePete: before I forget... you might be over-energetic at time (even for me, LOL), but, FWIW, I do appreciate you good humor/energy/enthusiasm.
<scanty>
i think my favourite 2600 cart is bowling.
<AlienSoldier>
scanty there is a great 2600 bowling homebrew, let me find the name
<gordonjcp>
OscarL: also everyone that says "excuse my English" generally speaks better English than about half the folk I deal with on a daily basis who *only* speak English
<gordonjcp>
OscarL: so ;-)
<OscarL>
:-)
<gordonjcp>
OscarL: my parter is Austrian, when our wee boy was a baby the health visitor who came round every few months to check his progress would start talking V-E-R-Y L-O-U-D-L-Y A-N-D S-L-O-W-L-Y when she heard her accent
<AlienSoldier>
scanty champ games have a series of sport game planned for 2600. i know he want to do hockey (the current one by activision is nice) but perhaps he will do bowling eventually.
<scanty>
that's cool
<gordonjcp>
OscarL: like, bitch, it's her third language and she speaks it better than you, give it a rest
<OscarL>
gordonjcp: awkard situation for sure. I could see how something like that can happen from a well-intentioned point, but also... is always bad to assume too much, or to just plain project.
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<OscarL>
AlienSoldier: will watch it tonight, when I get some spare MBs to download it. thanks.
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<|cos|>
Searching dev.haiku-os.org gives me no results for "pipx", and searching the web appears to be just as thin when it comes to actual matches. Does that mean noone has attempted bringing pipx to Haiku yet?
<OscarL>
looking at its pyproject.toml, it might be simply installable via pip. if so... at least *I* won't be adding a recipe for it :-)
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<OscarL>
|cos|: also... you shouldn't be searching dev.haiku-os.org to find what has been packaged or not. use either depot.haiku-os.org or search on https://github.com/haikuports/haikuports
<|cos|>
`pkgman search …` was done first, to see whether it was readily available. i searched the web to see if some prior work appeared to have happened.
<|cos|>
...and, yes. that's the pipx. it's essentially pip, but done slightly less wrong. a more modern variant which actually attempts to actually isolate the python stuff from the system installed things.
<OscarL>
I see. suggestion still stand. for python packages, makes little sense to depend on system provided packages. using pip/pipx/uv/conda/etc (assuming any of them besides pip actually works on Haiku out of the box, lol) should make the most sense.
<OscarL>
I even plan to nuke our pip ".hpkg".
<OscarL>
We can't possibliy keep up with their release schedule (x times per python version), and "python3.xx -m ensurepip --altinstall --user" should work just fine for all the supported Python versions.
<|cos|>
Nuking pip seems like a good idea, but only once having pipx! (I see why one don't want to fight with packaging a hostile language/eco-system like python)
<jmairboeck>
OscarL: quick python style question: should I use double quotes for a string literal containing an apostroph (')? haikuporter mostly uses single quotes apparently.
<jmairboeck>
or should I escape it with a \ ?
<jmairboeck>
Also, concatenate strings using + or "compile-time" concatenation?
<OscarL>
I'm partial to use 'string here', as that frees you to use the more commonly user facing " without escaping. that's my rationale: 'some "string" I will print'. means having to escape ' for English contractions though :-D
<jmairboeck>
that's exactly what I'm asking about
<OscarL>
I would just escape the single quote.
<jmairboeck>
ok
<scanty>
OscarL: are you still around, i need to pick your brain for a minute.
<OscarL>
for concatenation... depends, but + is ok most of the times for me.
<|cos|>
oh. pipx actually depends on pip, i read.
<OscarL>
|cos|: even if we remove the pip .hpkg... you would be able to install a non-packaged version of pip via that "python3.xx -m ensurepip --altinstall --user" I mentioned. that should allow for "bootstrapping" the rest of your needs.
<OscarL>
that way, keeping it updated also is just a: "python3 -m pip install --update --user".
<OscarL>
scanty: not sure if I will be of much help, but shoot :-)
<nekobot>
• jmairboeck (3086adb5): disallow PACKAGE_NAME and PACKAGE_VERSION for the main package…
<scanty>
gnome... yikes!
<OscarL>
jmairboeck: forgot to mention the alternative to scaping the apostrophe... just s/isn't/is not/ :-P
<scanty>
pithos is probably the only app for linux that i miss.
<OscarL>
LGTM, jmairboeck. Message is clear enough.
<jmairboeck>
it has the negative side effect though that you get the message multiple times, when parsing the recipe for DependencyInfos and then again when it actually tries to build it. But I guess that is the same for e.g. SUMMARY violations.
<scanty>
hm, maybe make a haiku native pandora client would be a nice side project.
<scanty>
never done anything networky.
<OscarL>
scanty: might be easier to port. I think we have all the dependencies.
<scanty>
orly?
<OscarL>
jmairboeck: I usually trip over hp complaining about an empty DESCRIPTION or something when I'm just starting on a new recipe... this case seems like it would be far less frequent :-)
<scanty>
just downloaded the source, will play with it later or tomorrow (day off)
<jmairboeck>
I thought, I'll just add some sanity check to make it clear that this isn't supported and doesn't work, not that someone tries to use it and then complains about it :)
<jmairboeck>
because $prefix and everything else depending on it wouldn't be correct, and you probably couldn't actually install anything in the INSTALL function then
<OscarL>
"foobar-1.2.3.recipe" creating ONLY "barfoo-6.6.6-1-any.hpkg" should be punishable by law :-P
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<jmairboeck>
the build package would be for barfoo-6.6.6-1 and thus the directory in /packages, but $prefix would point to /packages/foobar-1.2.3-1/.self, which wouldn't even exist
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<OscarL>
jmairboeck: for the record, I missundertood your previous question regaring string concatenation. (I was thinking more on things like: `foo + " some string " + bar`).
<jmairboeck>
haikuporter goes through some hoops already to get the REVISION out of the recipe for that path, having that 3 times sounds like a nightmare to implement
<OscarL>
(for concatenating string literals that just don't fit on one line... what you did in the PR is fine)
<jmairboeck>
thanks OscarL
<jmairboeck>
I saw + being used for that further down the line, but then I found out that python supports "C style" string literal concatenation as well.
<jmairboeck>
which I think is more appropriate here
<OscarL>
given that haikuporter's code even uses TABs intead of spaces, I won't be complaining much about + vs '' :-P (just trying to follow the style already there sounds the best course of action, when in doubt).
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<jmairboeck>
good night, I'll have to go now
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<scanty>
OscarL: i was all set to try out your poke driver the other night with my NES devkit, but I couldn't find a parallel port cable! I'll have to look for one tomorrow.
<OscarL>
hope you can make any use of it. give a shout if needed.
<scanty>
yes, i really hope it works because i don't really feel like wrtiting a driver.
<scanty>
i just need to know where in address space to poke/peek, probably can find that in the syslog.
<OscarL>
bios should also report address of legacy LPT port, probably.
<scanty>
its' not legacy, it's a pci card with a parallel port interface.
<OscarL>
I see. might be easier to remove /var/log/syslog and then reboot...
<scanty>
ah okay.
<OscarL>
so you get the early boot info at the top of the file (easier to find)
<scanty>
I'll manage.
<scanty>
:-)
<OscarL>
if not, one of the pci commands of my /bin/poke replacement should be able to output info in the PCI config space.
<scanty>
well, last i checked, the port is mapped into 0xd500
<scanty>
so that's where i'll be peeking and poking around.
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<scanty>
instead of legacy 0x378
<OscarL>
not sure if you'll need to remap some ports to be able to use them via ISA ports (mmio?). Loooong time since I've done anything like that. Memory fades :-D
<scanty>
well, if what i think should happen happens, it will work. 0x378 will map to d500, 0x379 to d501, etc for 0x37a
<scanty>
so if i can bitbang there with your driver, it might work.
<OscarL>
(or was that the other way around? remap ports so you can write to them by writting to a memory address? mmm, man so much that I have forgotten already, lol)
<scanty>
have to run some errands, bbl
<OscarL>
take care!
<gordonjcp>
I would like to find out where to start tracking down why my Thinkpad T430 occasionally boots Haiku with the built-in mouse and keyboard not working
<gordonjcp>
what would be a good way to start?
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<Habbie>
total back seat driving remark: compare logs generated during 'good' and 'bad' startups?
<OscarL>
cold vs warm boots (or boots after rebooting from another OS) also can cause variations.
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<Habbie>
good one
<OscarL>
which kinda indicates that Haiku's initialization of said hardware might not be complete enough.
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<Habbie>
likely
<OscarL>
or we're lacking some quirk() for that specific HW.
<Habbie>
hah. i knew that term from other projects, and it's the perfect word. i did not know haiku had them too
<OscarL>
gordonjcp: maybe grep linux/*bsd sources for possible quirks, or otherwise special init funcs related to your hardware?
<Habbie>
Or git rebase origin master your branch before updating doing the version updates, so when you push we don't get here already merged commits.
<OscarL>
I bet I could resolve the issue if I was at the keyboard, but I'm affraid I'll just confuse them even further if I attempt to guide them :-D
<Habbie>
that may not help
<Habbie>
if you see already-merged commits in the PR view, those commits have a different ID now
<Habbie>
however, rebase might recognise them anyway and drop them
<OscarL>
(noticed late they're just on master and not on a separate branch)
<Habbie>
anyway, if they rebase, they'll have to push -f after that
<Habbie>
ah yes
<Habbie>
them being on master works as long as they open one PR at a time
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<OscarL>
I would probably create a different branch, cherry-pick the newest commit (the only one relevant for th PR), push that as a new PR, nuke the current one....
<OscarL>
and then "git switch master && git reset origin master && git pull --rebase origin master" or something like that.
<Habbie>
third command sounds wrong there
<Habbie>
probably does exactly nothing
<OscarL>
the latter after switching to the new branch, so the cherry picked commit "gets on top", might have been what I had in mind :-)
<OscarL>
mixed it up with "git rebase origin master".
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<Habbie>
right
<Habbie>
after switching makes sense
<Habbie>
and then just rebase yes
<OscarL>
might be simpler to just `git fetch origin master && git reset origin master`, ask him to re-do the last commit manually and force push. (and then reset to orign master an not do more commits there).
<Habbie>
can still cherry-pick after fixing master and making a branch
<Habbie>
or, make a temp branch from the wrong master to be sure
<Habbie>
it's all fixable
<Habbie>
but hard to explain
<OscarL>
plus having to push to "master" (so the correct PR get updated)... right, easy to fix, but the "one-eyed leading the blind" part is the hardest :-D
<Habbie>
yeah
<Habbie>
i'm pretty decent with git but getting somebody else's tree in shape is still a hard problem
<Habbie>
and, from what i've seen you said here, you're not so bad yourself
<Habbie>
*you say here or *you've said here
<OscarL>
thanks. still lots to learn, but has been at least 2 and a half years since my last: "nuke repo, fresh clone, start again" :-D
<Habbie>
hehe
<Habbie>
not bad
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<Viking668>
Hi all and good morftervening. Hm, Vision's not as ugry as I thought.
<Viking668>
Ah, I did find one wrinkle. It doesn't integrate with Emacs.
<Viking668>
Does Haiku have a tiny standalone webserver like althttpd?
<OscarL>
hello there Viking668. Notice: libfossil recipe got merged, but seems that the package builders are taking a nap (or crashed). Will need to wait till one of the admins kicks them back up.
<OscarL>
Viking668: Haiku comes with the "PoorMan" http server.
<OscarL>
then there's RobinHood, another native webserver that's more feature complete.
<Viking668>
OscarL: thank you
<OscarL>
then there's lighttpd and nginx available.
<Viking668>
Ah, I saw lighttpd, but not nginx. I'll look again.
<OscarL>
might be others that I'm just not familiar with.
<Viking668>
Ahyup, it's there. I'll switch irc clients, back soon.
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<OscarL>
Viking667: `python3 -m http.server`works well too for those "darn, wish I had a webserver just about now" moments.
<Viking668>
huh. Is that in core python3+
<Viking668>
(that was meant to be a ? not a +)
<erysdren>
i think so?
<OscarL>
yes
<OscarL>
one of the "batteries included"
<Viking668>
Huh. It's been too long since I ever installed it.
<Viking668>
As in, it's been installed absolutely ages ago (Fedora 17)