ChanServ changed the topic of #wayland to: https://wayland.freedesktop.org | Discussion about the Wayland protocol and its implementations, plus libinput
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<danieldg>
Riolku: linux dmabuf is how you pass a buffer already on the gpu around
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* Riolku
should probably spend some time figuring out how GPUs work
<bl4ckb0ne>
mean engraved rock goes fast and makes software people angry
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<oldbabyface>
Ok so we start at what is the first google match on wayland, people yell it breaks everything, cause they want nvidia driver, well (yeah also slightly short sighted in fact)--- i do not want nvidia driver, i would be ok with nouveau, but i can not understand it all roots back to what i said and what i work on. Is that you do not need the higher clocks at all , you simply run a new extension to the compiler to run sane formats of
<oldbabyface>
instruction streams , cause my understanding is that nvidia offers 3d firmware for most (signed encrypted keyring), but nvidia has this extension in their driver egl buffers or whatever it was, it likely started on some later releases in other words, does not support vintage hw yes?
<oldbabyface>
any other than that, wayland should be fine , though i tested now 8years back or something
<oldbabyface>
but it worked yeah
<emersion>
your message is somewhat hard to grasp, do you have any question in particular?
<emersion>
fwiw, the nvidia proprietary driver now supports the standard GBM/DMA-BUF/etc stack that everybody uses
<MrCooper>
emersion: it's Joss
<emersion>
oh
<emersion>
indeed
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<pq>
vyivel, yes. I just 'meson install' to a prefix in my $HOME, and simply run 'weston'. Needs the usual LD_LIBRARY_PATH setup but nothing even remotely as horrible as WESTON_MODULE_MAP.
<vyivel>
eh, i'd like to avoid installing anything
<pq>
vyivel, I think you could also just 'meson devenv' in weston, and run 'weston'.
<pq>
without installing
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<vyivel>
TIL that's a thing
<vyivel>
it works, thanks
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<pq>
daniels, no, the question is for you, I put it in gitlab mentioning you, but now I think we should simply YOLO it, because anything better is too complicated to implement for this task.
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<kennylevinsen>
oooh, devenv, interesting
<pq>
I haven't got to the devenv boat myself yet, because I'm not in the "all deps are subprojects" boat either, and I tend to manually build some deps with downstream changes.
<kennylevinsen>
yeah with my squirrel-esque attention span I tend to work on a lot of unrelated things, and strongly prefer that projects stay in their project folder without too many workarounds...
<kennylevinsen>
but didn't know about meson devenv, I just ran things from the build folder and cursed whenever doing so was cumbersome :)
<pq>
it's all a trade-off of which setup things you likely forget the most, doing installs or making sure the right branch is checked out on every dep
<pq>
and I tend to switch checked-out branches often
<pq>
my "installed to $prefix" setup has all been scripted for years now, so I don't even think of it
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<kennylevinsen>
If only those container thingies weren't a pain for this kind of work. Or I guess nixOS. One day maybe.
<kennylevinsen>
Containers for project work environment seems to be getting more popular, and maybe it wouldn't be so bad with podman... Hmm...
<pq>
toolbx? I've never tried, just heard about it.
<daniels>
pq: aha, just found it ... I've got 128 unreads in fdo-gitlab even after sifting to ignore the ones I don't really want to catch up on :(
<daniels>
luckily I also have a 4.5h train journey this evening
<pq>
daniels, ahahah. I'm intendting to post "let's just YOLO it" to it today.
<pq>
daniels, btw. I've taught my MUA to highlight all emails that mention @pq or such, so I see if I'm mentioned in gitlab. As I never learnt to use the Gitlab todo thingy.
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<daniels>
pq: I've replied in record time! with what might be a useful suggestion!
<pq>
Should we make a habit of requiring sealed memfd when passing bulk data for CPU as shared fds in general?
<daniels>
in general sealed memfds are the thing we want for a lot of things, and per discussion above all the alternatives are strictly worse; that was the background behind having OS-divergent instructions, so people can do the good thing where the OS allows and the bad thing where the OS doesn't give you an option
<pq>
daniels, would be forbid building Weston on non-Linux then?
<daniels>
pq: nope, just only check the memfds on Linux, and on non-Linux have /* this can DoS your compositor lol */
<pq>
oh, *so* bad thing. I thought the thread was the bad thing.
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<daniels>
they're all bad :P
<pq>
shades
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<pq>
I'd be fine with that, if we also log a warning in Weston start-up on no-sealing OS.
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<pq>
daniels, ah, but sealing will not help with the compositor stalls though.
<pq>
hmm, but memfd does
<pq>
JoshuaAshton, yeah, it's awesome when you know all the users of a protocol extension are under your personal control, so you can update everything in sync and not think about interface stability at all. Certainly makes it easy and fast to get results and evolve when necessary.
<daniels>
pq: wfm
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<pq>
swick[m], I think your rebase of your color-management protocol branch lost the commit "color: reference the color-and-hdr repository".
<swick[m]>
shit
<pq>
that's a really nice bunch of changes you proposed :-)
<pq>
I'll get through them... umm... soon I hope
<swick[m]>
oh wow, I didn't just drop the commit, I then noticed that we need to do exactly what the commit did
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<swick[m]>
🤦
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<pq>
swick[m], I'm typing up the "must be sealed memfd" working for set_icc_file atm.
<pq>
*wording
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<davidre>
FWIW FreeBSD has mem_fd and sealing as well now
<pq>
cool
<davidre>
adays
<pq>
I'm already wording it so that the OS does not need to be Linux, just have sealing
<davidre>
13 I think. I was recently wondering if we could hardrequire it in KDE code :D
<pq>
...umm, hmm. What if an OS *adds* sealing capabilities?
<pq>
that would then change the spec retroactively, because before, sealing was not necessary on that OS, and then it becomes mandatory. Is that a problem?
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<davidre>
Can the compositor detect you didn't seal but you could have?
<davidre>
If not maybe not
<pq>
yes, I believe it can detect
<zamundaaa[m]>
The compositor can hardly detect whether or not the app, when it was written, could make use of the OS capabilities
<pq>
if you upgrade a compositor to require sealing, but not client, the client suddenly breaks.
<pq>
zamundaaa[m], that's the real problem, and also a different question.
<pq>
The whole point there is to protect the compositor when OS gives the tools for it, but if we also consider that apps could have been written before the OS got the tools, we essentially demand the compositor gives up permanently about protecting itself.
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<pq>
you could always just run an ancient app and claim it needs to keep on working, so the compositor can never require seals, so all apps can always just forget about sealing anyway.
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<pq>
hmm... maybe I make sealing requirement compositor-implementation-defined, and recommend clients always seal if possible or they risk a protocol error.
<pq>
awful for a spec, but I'm not sure how otherwise to avoid OS development from implicitly changing the protocol spec
<kennylevinsen>
quoting a 2016 article (https://lwn.net/Articles/671649/): The API is not considered to be one of our best and is not exposed by the GNU C library; indeed, the POSIX AIO support in glibc is implemented in user space and doesn't use the kernel's AIO subsystem at all. For files, only direct I/O is supported; despite various attempts over the years, buffered I/O is not supported. Even direct
<kennylevinsen>
not sure if still accurate
<ascent12>
io_uring solves a lot of that, but obviously a highly linux-specific thing
<ascent12>
It's also a pretty complex API to drag in for what could be a fairly small part of the code.
<kennylevinsen>
pq: heh, one of the suggested fixes to aio was to spawn kernel threads :)
<kennylevinsen>
An io_uring based solution should be hidden in the compositor event loop - makes it easier to fall back on other platforms
<kennylevinsen>
I'm all for compositors using io_uring, as long as we don't hard-break *BSD again
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<pq>
kennylevinsen, oh gosh.
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<oldbabyface>
MrCooper thinks he is a driver architect :) First you are not even that, and if you were you still are not forwarded any rights to come at my territory , we understand you are suicidal but your presence is obnoxious to all of us, having a break at overseas on my own territory from real work, not bullshit as what you do,You all are too bad jokes to make fun at. Put Your GBM/DMABUF into your asses, that is all you have achieved in 10years aside from
<oldbabyface>
pissing all intelligence off. Have you ever considered what projects i have lead?, there are also results considerably noticed
<bl4ckb0ne>
dont be rude
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<swick[m]>
mentally stable
<bl4ckb0ne>
i did not expect that to work
<pq>
you never know
<bl4ckb0ne>
can we frame "Put Your GBM/DMABUF into your asses" please
<ids1024>
AIO may be better on BSDs, though it looks like `EVFILT_AIO` (to poll for aio completion on a kqueue) is FreeBSD specific.
<ids1024>
I really wish Wayland could require (at least) `F_SEAL_SHRINK` for all shared memory fds it uses. But yeah, backwards compatibility and portability.
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<danieldg>
map_nofault doesn't require that the other side do sealing
<Riolku>
oh, right
<danieldg>
also it works for things beyond memfd, which is a real limitation of sealing
<Riolku>
The compositor cant protect itself, it has to ask clients to protect it
<danieldg>
well, it *could* try to seal FDs but that doesn't actually help if clients seal without shrink, or just pass normal shm (not memfd)
<Riolku>
right. didnt know seal fails on non memfd
<danieldg>
you wouldn't want sealing to work on an actual file anyway
<pitust>
couldn't one implement this without kernel features by handling the SIG
<danieldg>
yes, that's the usual solution
<pitust>
SIGBUS and mmaping over it with some map_anonymous pages?
<danieldg>
but that's rather inefficient
<pitust>
only in the failure scenario, and a malicious client can cause DOS in other ways anyway
<danieldg>
you have to record where all your maps are and walk them in your sigbus handler
<danieldg>
right, but you have to bookkeep always
<pitust>
well you need to know which client owns which region so that you know what to unmap, right?
<danieldg>
eh, you can just use the address and map over it
<danieldg>
if you know your compositor is bug-free and will never get a SIGBUS except from bad clients, you can make your handler much simpler: any SIGBUS gets a zero page mapped where it hits
<danieldg>
... for some reason that's not the solution people use :D
<pitust>
you could map all client mapped buffers in a specific memory range
<pitust>
and then you know it's *definitely* okay to map over it
<danieldg>
that would be a nice way to do it, yes
<danieldg>
you'd have to manage allocations in the area yourself, ofc
<danieldg>
say on compositor startup, do a big PROT_NONE mmap of 1GB to reserve the area, then MAP_FIXED things into it
<ids1024>
I think the advantage of `MAP_NOFAULT` is mainly backwards compatibility. If the Wayland protocol were defined today, and only for Linux (or FreeBSD) you could make it a protocol error to send an shm fd that isn't a sealed memfd.
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<i509vcb>
I get the feeling at the staging -> stable migrations are going to cause a lot of git history noise
<i509vcb>
Wouldn't an attribute of sorts you can attach to a protocol make the move less messy>
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<danieldg>
ids1024: yeah, that was the goal when it was proposed, but not enough clients did it and so no compositor could start rejecting unsealed FDs
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<oldbabyface>
So the sports men, tiger woods vs nick faldo, or micheal jordan vs. drazen petrovic, say Ali mouhammed vs joe frazer or whatever from new ones, there are many in boxing, ronnie o'sullivan, i mean whatever you talk about one dude flies, there is one man who is bit more, and in my opinion that is micheal jordan
<oldbabyface>
but blacks are good especially when they are homied, tracy was good, orlando magic dunker was very shadow of micheal as tracy, but so good this man knew how to dunk, also vince carter was good
<oldbabyface>
Penny Hardaway
<oldbabyface>
good was also Grant Hill
<oldbabyface>
whatever math you do, it's micheal Jordan, the hugest goat
<oldbabyface>
Dwayne Wade was good, John stockton, there was Allen Iverson, but does any of them fancy playing against Micheal Jordan?
<oldbabyface>
not even the great of the 80s Larry Bird
<oldbabyface>
there is none to substitute Micheal Jordan
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<bl4ckb0ne>
i love the game where michael jordan plays with bigs bunny and daffy duck
<oldbabyface>
bugs bunny yeah
<oldbabyface>
that's absolutely true, there was a movie
<oldbabyface>
this is the biggest human or most capable that i have seen, but there used to be very big ones in history that we have not seen
<oldbabyface>
before they started fixate the heights etc.
<oldbabyface>
but yeah macbook air is good stuff, such a legend, my work is lot easier
<oldbabyface>
so i just do not want to talk anymore, but you understand anyways, there was something special about the splits, computing terms they produced a special set from germans
<oldbabyface>
and those are british
<oldbabyface>
those did it
<oldbabyface>
french and germans have great talents too, but computing is mostly famous british win
<oldbabyface>
so british and united states combine noble wins is insane too hence
<oldbabyface>
my work is lot simpler, cause i was given a computer already :D
<oldbabyface>
for me to talk about those things is not a problem, i see those algorithms well, cause all is presented, something you read in between the lines
<oldbabyface>
it's all offered to you
<oldbabyface>
cause so magical people they can handle stuff
<oldbabyface>
I have seen lance armstrong the king of the mountains
<oldbabyface>
lances doctor said to that type of cancer, cause lances doctor was the best brain surgeon in united states
<oldbabyface>
lance asked, why i should trust my life in your hands
<oldbabyface>
?
<oldbabyface>
that dude said, You know Lance, what you are in cycling i am many times better and higher in brain surgery
<oldbabyface>
this is a small case when some douche like me gets hurt , cause there are so many of those cases
<oldbabyface>
prolly i just was not good enough
<oldbabyface>
but from all the assaults my brain survived , so no problem you want to optimize code?
<bl4ckb0ne>
im ok
<oldbabyface>
yeah i think also, i am ok too
<oldbabyface>
there are safety issues, but there is no trouble at my side too, i know how to do it too
<oldbabyface>
its all done through the permutes which are a possibility set of any of the ALUs
<oldbabyface>
they can pack very high throughputs like this
<oldbabyface>
it obeys to certain very easy logics
<oldbabyface>
but i have understood the same, i can not see back from 1983 cause then i was born, but yeah i heard, there was one nation that got a lead, and today the lead is at the hands of united states when to pick out only one, they were doing mass productions indeed, i dunno what is so special about them, cause i do not see history before my birth
<oldbabyface>
true or false, they started to lead all the world
<psykose>
take ur meds
<oldbabyface>
this is crazy, one nation takes down remotely most the russian military
<oldbabyface>
and remotely
<oldbabyface>
not being at the zone not even close to it