robclark changed the topic of #aarch64-laptops to: Linux support for AArch64 Laptops (Chrome OS Trogdor Devices - Asus NovaGo TP370QL - HP Envy x2 - Lenovo Mixx 630 - Lenovo Yoga C630 - Lenovo ThinkPad X13s - and various other snapdragon laptops) - https://oftc.irclog.whitequark.org/aarch64-laptops
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<steev>
robclark: looks like the Thinkpad 14s is default 32gb and 1TB for the 2700
<akaWolf>
I dont know why but that sample just doesnt work with hw accel, others are working
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<akaWolf>
anyone get chromium video hw accelerated?
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<akaWolf>
looks like there is need to build chromium with use_v4l2_codec=true IIUC
<akaWolf>
and I've checked, at least at arch linux arm there is no such flag
<HdkR>
Would be nice if Chromium just supported runtime selection of vaapi,vdpau, and v4l2
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<steev>
i just get errors trying to load that file as well, but it seems a bit small for what it should be?
<steev>
only 18MB?
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<steev>
ah, no, it could just be lack of hwaccel for vp9
<cenunix[m]>
<HdkR> "OLED could be a turn off" <- Ah I see, some people don’t like staring at oled for long periods or something? I’m actually a big fan of oleds purely for watching media, so it’s always nice when a device has oled and hdr/dolby vision.
<HdkR>
Lenovo doesn't say if the OLED in the Thinkpad is high-refresh like the Yoga sadly
<HdkR>
I assume since refresh isn't mentioned then it's 60. Lower end panel than what is in the Yoga :(
<HdkR>
Now if only Lenovo would smoosh the two devices together, it would have been perfect
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<Dylanger[m]>
Anyone know if the new Snapdragon X SoCs will squat over EL2?
<travmurav[m]>
allegedly el2 is supposed to be available but don't preorder it based on that, we never saw it actually working :P
<Dylanger[m]>
Aww damn that makes me excited, sounds like I'll finally be moving to aarch64 as my daily laptop this year!!
<Jasper[m]>
<HdkR> "I assume since refresh isn't..." <- Have you checked if the specsheet is already in psref?
<HdkR>
Jasper[m]: I have no idea what psref is
<travmurav[m]>
Dylanger: fwiw all I know is that, allegedly: someone @ qcom was paid to prototype el2 support as a fw option; at a sample size of 1, that option exists on a devkit but doesn't work; neither slbounce works on the same devkit. sooo... :D
<travmurav[m]>
would qcom fix the fw? is that option locked to select devices? will oems enable it? will oems expose the knob? All remains to be seen
<Dylanger[m]>
Really hoping they allow EL2 raw access
<Jasper[m]>
HdkR: psref.lenovo.com lists all specsheets, manuals and configurations for every device lenovo (and IBM) ever made
<HdkR>
fancy
<Jasper[m]>
I haven't checked, but try to find if the thinkpad and the yoga are already on there, they will list all display options
<HdkR>
Jasper[m]: Looks like it is there but the they don't have all the SKUs or some are labeled incorrectly
<Jasper[m]>
Normally it would list a better specsheet in pdf form under documentation, but it's not there yet it seems
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<HdkR>
So really the only sad thing is Thinkpad loses a 40gbit port, and its battery capacity is quite a bit smaller. Compared to the Yoga
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<Jasper[m]>
There might be a actively cooled non-s T14 on the way?
<HdkR>
Although maybe the trade off of an HDMI port and two USB ports are worth it
<Jasper[m]>
HdkR: Was gonna ask that
<HdkR>
Oh, I already assumed it was actively cooled since the Yoga is and the Thinkpad has a higher end SoC SKU
<HdkR>
But that's okay, I have a 140mm fan
<agl>
bamse: Which Snapdragon X Elite Notebook do you prever?
<agl>
The Lenovo T14s: 32GB, 1TB SSD, non-touch costs in Germany 1899,- € that's about less than $2000.
<agl>
Pre-order, at Fr, Jun 21 it will shipped.
<agl>
Until now it's not confirurable.
<HdkR>
Yea, can't configure it yet, and I don't want the SKU they're offering for $2700 here
<agl>
But I want to configure it.
<HdkR>
same
<agl>
When I buy it I want 64GB RAM, Touch-Screen and mSD-Card-Reader.
<z3ntu>
so expensive..
<HdkR>
There are less silly expensive options
<HdkR>
Because really if you're spending $2700, you're probably better off buying a Macbook
<HdkR>
$1100 for some of the base X1E devices is more comparable to something sane
<HdkR>
Actually throws hands with Macbook Air price and performance at that point :P
<z3ntu>
My "gaming" laptop I bought about 10 years ago with Intel+Nvidia GPU was around €1100 back then, I'd have thought prices would still be around that number, not more like double that number..
<Jasper[m]>
Do keep in mind you're looking at the topend models
<HdkR>
^
<Jasper[m]>
Any other (brand new) thinkpad costs similarly
<Dantheman825[m]>
*pats X13s*
<Dantheman825[m]>
don't worry, you're still a good laptop
<HdkR>
I think it was X1E devices stating at $1100, and X1P starting at $1000?
<HdkR>
starting at*
<HdkR>
Plus theoretically a 4.6TFLOP GPU will actually do some decent gaming
<Dantheman825[m]>
too bad they wasted so much die space on the NPU
<Dantheman825[m]>
no Adreno 790 for us :(
<HdkR>
I would have preferred more CPU cores or more GPU cores if the tensor units were stripped out of the Hexagon yes
<travmurav[m]>
I wonder how much does the ai bubble contribute to the adoption of the x actually, since they're probably best at it right now and ai is "hot"
<travmurav[m]>
that is, would it still be adopted widely if not for ai
<HdkR>
Intel and AMD are expected to release AI things at Computex as well. So it's not like it would matter on the timeline scale of hardware
<Jasper[m]>
travmurav[m]: Why do you think the ms copilot cert exists? :p
<HdkR>
(Ryzen AI today peaks out at 16TOPS which is a bit lower than 45 of QCOM)
<lollaritits[m]>
stupid question
<lollaritits[m]>
but my mouse stopped working in the minecraft gui
<lollaritits[m]>
it works as usual for the movement but not for the GUI
<lollaritits[m]>
anyone ever had that problem
<HdkR>
Sounds like cursor plane plague
<HdkR>
I notice it periodically that the cursor plane stops moving, but hovering over elements still changes the cursor image
<HdkR>
I assume it to be a kernel bug
<Dantheman825[m]>
I mucked up my audio on my laptop :(
<Dantheman825[m]>
originally it worked on my other kernels (specifically 6.9 from Jhovold), but Steev's 6.9 branch missed audio
<Dantheman825[m]>
tried installing the downstream alsa-ucm-conf and firmware for the DP fixes, but it broke audio everywhere
<Dantheman825[m]>
okay, maybe it was completely reinstalling alsa-ucm-conf or compressing audioreach-tplg.bin back to zst like the other firmware, but I fixed audio
<Dylanger[m]>
<JensGlathe[m]> "yes, according to the [blog](..." <- Actual picture of Qualcomm when they hear "Just use KVM"
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<akaWolf>
HdkR: I see
<akaWolf>
anyone got chromium with video hw accel?
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<JensGlathe[m]>
<Dylanger[m]> "I don't understand why they don..." <- From what I've read, running proprietary software stacks could be some reason, like phone functionality.
<bamse>
agl: don't know yet
<Dylanger[m]>
I understand that but this is a Laptop SKU, they should give you control over EL3 tbh, it's your device, I'd like to see a "I'm advanced and use Linux" and it unlocks everything
<travmurav[m]>
>control over EL3
<travmurav[m]>
neither you have this level of access on x86, whatever those privilege modes are called
<Dylanger[m]>
SMM?
<Dylanger[m]>
You do if the OEM/ODM doesn't blow any fuses on the CPU
<travmurav[m]>
providing EL2 would be "on the level of competition", not providing EL2 would be unacceptable or vendor lock-in
<travmurav[m]>
Dylanger[m]: same applies to arm/qcom though
<JensGlathe[m]>
WoA on the Mac doesn't have EL2
<Dylanger[m]>
Yeah that's true, I'd pay extra for an unfuse'd SoC laptop
<Dylanger[m]>
We might see ODMs like framework do this
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<travmurav[m]>
but as I said, allegedly one would get a choice between proprietary hyp or EL2
<travmurav[m]>
but I have no proof of the thing working
<travmurav[m]>
and I'd not believe it until I see it
<Dylanger[m]>
I guess it depends who actually makes that decision, like is it the OEM or Microsoft
<Dylanger[m]>
* or Microsoft or QC
<agl>
bamse: Thank you ... I will wait to see what you an steev order. The ThinkPad T14s Gen 6 (Snapdragon X Elite 12 cores) gives in a fixed configuration for 1900.- €. But I want to configure it.
<agl>
also here in Germany
<konradybcio>
vivobook s15 looks to be the cheapest X elite + 32G option
<konradybcio>
but it's x1e78100
<JensGlathe[m]>
which vendor will give data for a dtb first, that would be my question
<travmurav[m]>
schematics would probably leak eventually :D
<JensGlathe[m]>
plunking down 2k+ for a new shiny and then count on that? 🤨
<travmurav[m]>
no, you just hope WoA flops and buy it second hand for third the price from a disappointed owner after a year /s
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<danielt>
If I hoped for that then after two years it would only be Apple left making laptops for us...
<travmurav[m]>
(which is not the case this time hopefully, I guess)
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<travmurav[m]>
but yeah, iirc there was some Linaro booth video where the rep said "some vendors do consider linux, most don't want to work on it" or something like that
<JensGlathe[m]>
that chance is non-zero, but with buy-in from multiple vendors... I would expect somehow otherwise. If WoA flops that invest into the hw needs to be amortized... the hw is good, maybe odd, but you 'can' do interesting stiuff with it
<JensGlathe[m]>
s/stiuff/stuff/
<Dylanger[m]>
<JensGlathe[m]> "which vendor will give data..." <- Really hoping MS's Surface, I've always loved their look/feel
<travmurav[m]>
that's why I'm very sceptical that while qcom seem to be taking some (?) effort to make Linux work properly (which, if true, is very respectable), there is just too many things to go wrong for it to actually work out
<travmurav[m]>
also the usual note for matrix users, your reactions don't get bridged to the irc and this is an irc room
<JensGlathe[m]>
cf Ubuntu 24.04 for X13s
<JensGlathe[m]>
the installer ISO is still f'ed
<Dylanger[m]>
If MS confirmed Linux support I'd preorder right now
<JensGlathe[m]>
they will say "yes, WSL"
<JensGlathe[m]>
and yes it works
<Dylanger[m]>
Wow that makes me unnecessarily furious lol
<Dylanger[m]>
I'll keep an eye on Pharonix, hopefully we get some love a few months after launch
<JensGlathe[m]>
I do Dynamics NAV for a living ^^
<\[m]>
what can flop about WoA? the app ecosystem following through?
<travmurav[m]>
at least so far I saw quite a few second hand woa laptops with "software x didn't work" :D
<travmurav[m]>
but I guess here it's mostly the low end ones too
<JensGlathe[m]>
Windows as a GUI with its vendor has quite a taint. But as it seems MSFT is exerting massive pressure on the software vendors that didn't want to compile aarch64 for WoA to change that. The Dev Kit was "asking nicely", that's over now.
<\[m]>
do you mean reactions or replies? replies do get sent to IRC I believed
<travmurav[m]>
\: reactions specifically never get bridged
<JensGlathe[m]>
edits, too, answers, too. But not emoji reactions
<JensGlathe[m]>
I sincerely hope the answer from the vendors is "okay, make it a professional system again, stop that ad fsckery, and we're in"
<\[m]>
I'm thinking we have to hope WoA becomes huge really
<\[m]>
theoretically they could provide the dtb in the uefi no?
<travmurav[m]>
+1, if it flops this time, I don't think there will be third
<JensGlathe[m]>
yes and yes
<JensGlathe[m]>
this is prepared and appears to work on the X13s (and Volterra does odd things with UEFI, too - unfortunately systemd-boot doesn't follow through and boot something useful)
<robclark>
seems like we are at the inflection point, where performance finally surpasses intel/amd, enough sw has arm support, and x86 emulation has improved to the point that you can still run whatever old random binary.. so, I'm not thinking that it will flop. Not to mention, with something like 22 different snapdragon X laptops announced, it is going to get harder _not_ to buy an arm laptop.
<robclark>
as far as linux support, I guess for now there is the write .dts based on acpi tables
<robclark>
probably longer term, linux will have to re-vist the ACPI PeP thing so we can just ACPI boot on these new things
<konradybcio>
no
<robclark>
I don't think dt based boot will scale, sadly
<konradybcio>
all the useful data is currently hardcoded in windows drivers as of now
<konradybcio>
the acpi bindings will need to change
<travmurav[m]>
afaik even qcom says they dont want pep on linux xD
<robclark>
konradybcio: re PeP, at least it is one per SoC rather than one-per-laptop
<konradybcio>
robclark I cannot fully agree
<konradybcio>
swap out one pmic and you're cooked
<robclark>
if you can get the vendors to play ball and provide dtb, then maybe... but I'm just not seeing how that can work
<Dylanger[m]>
robclark: We need like, a foundation where people can donate for baremetal support on these SoCs, I'm 💯 willing to donate/pay for this
<robclark>
hmm, well I guess you can check what is shipped on the different x1* laptops
<konradybcio>
i'd say let's worry about what we have today for now
<konradybcio>
future may be better or worse
<robclark>
Dylanger[m]: right, but how do you get out ahead of the release date... so laptop has day-1 support
<robclark>
with dtb we are always in catch-up mode
<Dylanger[m]>
Yeah that's never going to happen sadly
<dgilmore>
I'm with robclark ACPI really needs to be made to work
<dgilmore>
Any dtb really needs to be shipped with the system
<robclark>
so.. off the wall idea.. what about a PeP implementation that used dt.. so we have a limited amount of (mostly per-SoC) config, and then everything else uses acpi
<Dylanger[m]>
robclark: Wish it was Chrome-esk where that's sort of mandated by Google
<travmurav[m]>
have anyone figured out how qcom gpios are numbered in acpi yet?
<robclark>
Dylanger[m]: yeah, that would be nice
<Jasper[m]>
travmurav[m]: "Someone" mentioned they're attributed by qcgpio.sys, the numbers in dsdt are only references for those
<Jasper[m]>
robclark: Having a way to mark some node as reserved for ACPI based boot would be cool
<Jasper[m]>
No idea how well that would work in practice obviously
* travmurav[m]
smells boardfiles
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<JensGlathe[m]>
travmurav[m]: omfg not another one
<konradybcio>
yes, the current acpi bindings would require lots of boardfiles
<konradybcio>
i'm not saying all this out of spite
<konradybcio>
it's just that there is not enough description with the current ones
<ardb>
that is essentially what PEP is - boardfiles
<robclark>
but, at least it is only the same pain that ms+qc have for windows ;-)
<travmurav[m]>
afaiu x86 today also has quite a bit of boardfile-esque stuff but not sure if it's to this extent, since I guess x86 also heavily relies on pci(e)glue which helps, and for qcom, pep would also include gpu etc?
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<robclark>
my guess is there isn't a lot of permutation of pmics/etc
<konradybcio>
x86 benefits a lot from having many peripherals over pcie and from ibm pc standards yes travmurav
<konradybcio>
robclark there hasn't been for a period of time, but not anymore
<konradybcio>
also, it was rather common before like msm8996
<robclark>
right, but my point is if permutation is difficult for windows from a sw standpoint, it is kinda a problem we don't need to worry about
<robclark>
$OEM isn't going to build a laptop that windows won't work on
<konradybcio>
the oem can patch the driver and ship a different binary through windows update
<robclark>
maybe.. I'd kinda be curious about some data points on that.. I kinda suspect we are making it out to be a bigger problem than it actually is
<robclark>
(and I still maintain that even if it is a problem... it is a problem that we'll have to deal with, unless we convince ms to switch to devicetree ;-))
<travmurav[m]>
imo, the actual question is probably, "will someone be paid to work on this", I guess x13s was a cool example but would it repeat and would the sponsor pick a "make it work now" or "make all of them work" route
<Jasper[m]>
travmurav[m]: I think the conclusion that @jhovold made, was that most of the work and discoveries being done with the X13s were SoC wide and that (in the end), it already improves things for X Elite devices
<steev>
and vice versa
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<steev>
the question is... if we're gonna get qcom to do the improvements
<travmurav[m]>
well I mean someone still need to write the actual DT and validate specific devices
<travmurav[m]>
this is (1) and (2) was that no existing work targets acpi
<travmurav[m]>
afaik at least
<Jasper[m]>
travmurav[m]: Wasn't one of the BSD's trying very hard?
<Jasper[m]>
And the start of this irc channel
<travmurav[m]>
and didn't they give up later :D
<Jasper[m]>
Oh yeah, definitely
<travmurav[m]>
sorry s/existing/current/
<robclark>
ohh, x1e dev kit for $899... wonder what the RAM config is.. that might be an attractive alternative to a laptop
<Jasper[m]>
robclark: HUH?
<Jasper[m]>
WHERE?
<robclark>
link nscnt[m] posted
<travmurav[m]>
afaut there is quite a bit of work being sponsored for x elite on linux but it's all DT, and I think I also heard qcom talking about implementing dt selection support in their firmware
<bamse>
\[m]: CS is good to get the deeper understanding, but just read people's code, hack on things, write stuff, solve problems (real problems, not just leetcode)...this is what gives you understanding of the subject
<\[m]>
bamse: I'm just a humble sysadmin but I will take it 🙂
<bamse>
s/understanding/feeling/
<bamse>
\[m]: i started there as well...
<steev>
tbh... solving real problems does indeed work - i wanted bluetooth on the x13s because of the audio driver not working yet... i knew fuckall about bluetooth drivers
<steev>
and now people think i'm a fancy kernel dev cuz i have commits in the kernel
<bamse>
well, you can choose smaller problems in less messy areas to start with ;)
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<steev>
if i had known before hand.... :P
<steev>
it was fun and a good learning experience
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<travmurav[m]>
though I have a feeling that longer you go, less low-hanging-fruit problems there are, i.e. not sure if x13s is already "exhausted of simple problems" too?
<travmurav[m]>
since easy obvious stuff tends to get done first
<gwolf>
ohai :) I like to think of myself as part of this "we" you mentioned ~30min ago, although it's largely an aspirational self-appointment 😉
<gwolf>
But anyways... I've learnt quite a bit here. Enough to allow me to ask the same questions over and over 😉
<gwolf>
bamse: It's again about the patches you proposed for enabling the C630's HDMI video out...
<gwolf>
...I currently have my machine with a recent-ish 6.7 kernel IIRC I use for my everyday work, plus a 5.19 kernel with your modifications...
<gwolf>
...have you ported them to any newer kernel? If so, where can I get the patches / branch?
* travmurav[m]
is not sure he should feel lucky that the only "very hard" problem he has left on aspire1 is the va macro dmic, be it damned
<gwolf>
( + lots of thanks...)
<\[m]>
yeah, leave the simple stuff to the noobs pls 😄
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<bamse>
travmurav[m]: that's certainly the case...but there's a still a lot of bugs and issues left to be solved, just less of the big obvious items
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<konradybcio>
travmurav what's wrong with it?
<konradybcio>
other than "doesnt work" lol
<steev>
gwolf: they haven't been ported to newer :( lumag submitted the usb-c changes without hdmi, i don't know if anyone has circled back since
<bamse>
gwolf: dmitry from Linaro is working on it... in particluar there was a desire (requirement) to sort out the usb type-c stuff
<steev>
also fwiw, audio is broke again on the c630 :D
<travmurav[m]>
konradybcio: well first of all, on 7c the va depends on 3 drivers, all of which needs PM to be fixed (hacked that up already but didn't finish properly) - that's a simple part
<travmurav[m]>
and then when I try to actually record from it, adsp crashes, cripplinc the AP with it
<travmurav[m]>
the setup is supposed to be the same on rb5 but when I asked, I was told it's broken there too ...
<steev>
but not if we take jenneron[m]'s 6.7 reverts, still need to find time to go through and find the actual commit that breaks it... i think i sent the wrong t-b on the patch srini sent because i tested on his 6.7 which had the other reverts still
<gwolf>
steev: Right... Well, I don't care too much for sound. Wouldn't mind having it, of course, but I don't _require_ it for anything
<konradybcio>
travmurav ouch
<konradybcio>
have you tracked down which call(s) actually hang it?
<gwolf>
But anyway... Thanks. I'll keep a candle lit for the right planets to be aligned for it to land in newer kernels
<steev>
gwolf: i like having it... but yeah, no hdmi out over usb-c yet
<gwolf>
meanwhile, I'll keep my trusty 5.19 handy and reboot now and then :-]
<travmurav[m]>
I tried I think but it's a big pain since adsp takes calling core out and linux chokes on core stalls
<travmurav[m]>
but I htink it's one of the early messages to the adsp
<konradybcio>
pr_err and sleep before each call?
<konradybcio>
with maxcpus=1 to be sure?
<travmurav[m]>
notably it dies only if the va macro registers were (attempted to be) set (that is, if I touch the va alsa knobs)
<travmurav[m]>
and adsp dies by watchdog
<travmurav[m]>
I think last time I was looking at the dpam chains but they were looking correct, though I didn't completely understand if the dpam stuff was called properly or not
<konradybcio>
any chance va is not clocked properly
<konradybcio>
also uh do the mics work in windows
<travmurav[m]>
that's what I suspected but I think the needed votes were cast (thanks to broken PM driver always casitng them)
<travmurav[m]>
konradybcio: yes
<\[m]>
wtf it's 5.6klines
<travmurav[m]>
don't you remember me poking the poor thing with an oscilloscope to figure out schematics trolled me :(
<travmurav[m]>
(that is, I've read the option resistors wrong because they didn't remove 0ohm option ones but instead the actual value ones from another place, and kept the now useless 0ohm on the board)
<steev>
\[m]: what is?
<\[m]>
.dts
<\[m]>
lol I had a leftover /run/wpa_supplicant/wlP6p1s0 somehow that might have been breaking the ifup systemd service
<\[m]>
#n00b
<steev>
ah, yeah the dts can seem daunting, but it's really not
<\[m]>
maybe it's a bunch of generator scripts?
<\[m]>
what you start from
<\[m]>
windows extract of something?
<Jasper[m]>
I nearly put away all my dev board nuggets, and I almost have my desk set up again
<Jasper[m]>
Almost time to continue messing with my shitton of devices that are unused
<Jasper[m]>
._.
<Jasper[m]>
\[m]: What device are you looking at?
<\[m]>
just x13s looking around
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<JensGlathe[m]>
<travmurav[m]> "is not sure he should feel lucky..." <- > * <@travmurav:matrix.org> is not sure he should feel lucky that the only "very hard" problem he has left on aspire1 is the va macro dmic, be it damned
<JensGlathe[m]>
if the pupil is ready, the teacher will present itself
<JensGlathe[m]>
argh
<JensGlathe[m]>
pop 22.04 flash-kernel doesn't know the X13s,
<robclark>
bamse: should remoteproc/dsp stuff attempt to try again if it fails to load fw? Looks like the adsp/cdsp fw isn't making it into my initrd and I'm ending up w/out dp/charging/etc
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<konradybcio>
robclark you can reload it as many times as you want
<robclark>
hmm.. what triggers it to reload... because it doesn't appear to be trying
<konradybcio>
ah, you mean whether it should try itself
<konradybcio>
yeah no, only audio stuff may trigger it on use attempt.. otherwise you can do echo restart > /sys/class/remoteproc/remoteprocN/state
<robclark>
ok... `echo start > ...` but otherwise worked, thx
<steev>
robclark: have you tried lumag's in kernel pd-mapper stuff?
<robclark>
yeah, I'm aware of it.. just haven't gotten around to trying it
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<anonymix007[m]>
Are there any X Elite laptops with replaceable WiFi card? I was hoping that the Thinkpad T14s Gen 6 will be the one, but apparently it is not.
<steev>
they just lifted the embargo yesterday or so... i'm not sure anyone will know until june
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<bamse>
robclark: i tried to discuss that a few years back...Torvalds yelled at me... so no, we don't retry automagically
<bamse>
robclark: the current "solution" is to keep remoteproc out of the ramdisk...which then causes issues with usb when it finally kicks in...
<Dantheman825[m]>
<Dantheman825[m]> "okay, maybe it was completely..." <- What controls the little light toggle on the mute button? Whatever I did to bring back working audio made the light stop working
<steev>
so you mute it and it doesn't light up?
<Dantheman825[m]>
yeah, it's kinda bothering me more than it should
<Dantheman825[m]>
lol
<steev>
dunno, cuz dunno what you did to bring back working audio