<ermo[m]>
was related to "total accelerant redesign"
<nephele>
hu
<nephele>
hi
<ermo[m]>
but the overall mulled design changes look interesting
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<Begasus>
haikuports keeps me busy, so mostly I don't read the logs here ;)
<nephele>
morning Begasus
<Begasus>
morning nephele ermo[m]
<ermo[m]>
mornin'
<ermo[m]>
Begasus: you're a haiku contributor then?
<ermo[m]>
s/haiku/haikuports
<nephele>
Begasus is the one that keeps haikuports running :P
<ermo[m]>
oh?
<ermo[m]>
Mad props to Begasus then ^^
<nephele>
(I mean, he is a very active there :)
<Begasus>
heh
<Begasus>
someone has to keep 32bit recipes working as well as the 64bit ones nephele
<Begasus>
could always use help :P
<nephele>
Indeed
<ermo[m]>
Huh. Just had a thought re. debugging drivers. What if ... you compile two version of each driver, one prod and one debug-enabled, and then name them with a known-in-advance-postfix and then enable said debug drivers selectively via advanced debugging flags as part of the boot-loader and/module module-loader code?
<ermo[m]>
two *versions
<ermo[m]>
you can do this with dynamically loadable drivers but not the kernel proper
<ermo[m]>
or, well, you could do the same with the kernel proper I guess
<nephele>
that is what i ment with build two add-ons
<nephele>
personally my main gripe is still that i don't get debug symbols for the entire system tbh
<ermo[m]>
ah, ok, I must've missed that then
<ermo[m]>
Is it not possible to build with e.g. -g and then strip and save the debug symbols, but have them available if the debugger is used?
<ermo[m]>
i.e. not there to bog down perf, but can be loaded in if you need them?
<nephele>
I don't care if it's stripped or not, my disk is big enough
<Begasus>
I guess that's why we use defineDebugInfoPackage in the recipes
<ermo[m]>
to which degree is this about proving additional -debug .hpkgs?
<ermo[m]>
*providing
<nephele>
Most of my build enabled debug, but i still don't get much debug info
<nephele>
not at all, i'm talking about haiku.hpkg and consorts, not additional installed packages
<nephele>
one problem is for example that Debugger can't understand how syscalls work currently
<ermo[m]>
Go easy on me -- my reference is how linux systems are built/assembled. Still not up to speed on the Haiku-specific internals / choices =)
<nephele>
so it will show you the raw assembly instead of "this is calling iscomputeron()"
<ermo[m]>
But I've gotta say that I haven't been this excited about computering since, well, ever (in relation to talking about Haiku and discovering how it ticks)
<ermo[m]>
may be a honeymoon phase thing ;)
<nephele>
Perhaps, you will see :P
<nephele>
I am quite the fan of our debugger though, I like having a gui debugger instead of having to use gdb cli, i never got used to it
<Begasus>
haven't done any internal OS things since RH5.0 I think (recompiling the kernel to get graphic screen) :P
<ermo[m]>
TUI stuff is mostly about rote learning in a sense. Unless said TUI was designed by an exceptionally gifted UI/UX interaction designer.
<nephele>
i don't think compiling the kernel is considered internal OS on linux :P
<ermo[m]>
(as I see it, others may disagree ofc)
<nephele>
I don't see a point of using a TUI if you have a GUI
<Begasus>
right nephele ;)
<nephele>
especially if there is no coherence between TUI interfaces
<ermo[m]>
I think that depends.
<ermo[m]>
It can be super useful to script sequences of actions for testing for instance?
<nephele>
(It's different if your entire OS is "only" a TUI, with which i mean "uses vesa text mode"
<ermo[m]>
even if you can do the same actions via gui gestures
<nekobot2>
[haiku/haiku] 2aac05508f52 - Update translations from Pootle
<ermo[m]>
then perhaps we're talking past each other?
<ermo[m]>
I consider the Terminal a TUI
<ermo[m]>
Just as I consider the vi(m) interface a TUI
<nephele>
TUI in my definition is a terminal interface made to behave like a GUI
<ermo[m]>
Ah, k.
<nephele>
with for example text box characters
<ermo[m]>
Well, in that case, I take your point.
<nephele>
i consider the normal "shell" case to be CLI
<ermo[m]>
I guess you could switch my use of TUI with CLI then.
<ermo[m]>
in both the gdb and vi(m) case
<nephele>
but as for sh itself, i dislike that too, not because i dislike the idea of a text interface, but rather because i think the sh language is ill-designed (and some posix interfaces around it are too)
<ermo[m]>
sh is a bit shit.
<ermo[m]>
I like fish and some of the other modern takes on CLI better. nushell for instance.
<nephele>
Well, I think that the design /around/ sh also is in dire need of fixing
<ermo[m]>
But I use bash and (a simple configuration of) zsh habitually because it's available
<nephele>
I use mksh, it is the most sane shell i know
<ermo[m]>
I'm guessing it's the MirBSD Korn Shell?
<nephele>
(and the Android default shell, lol. which means i can just use the android shell and dont have to try and download bash like a madman)
<nephele>
Yes
<ermo[m]>
How close is zsh to mksh?
<nephele>
dunno
<ermo[m]>
I was actually struck by zsh not being the default in Haiku. I can only assume that it's a legacy from the BeOS days...?
<ermo[m]>
Though I suppose the default use of GNU coreutils is a giveaway in terms of Haiku "userland"
<nephele>
I use mksh because it is very... say, simple and calm, atleast to me. for example i do "typecommand -arg^C" very often to look up what else i need to input for my command
<nephele>
it saves my incomplete command to the backlog whereas bash does not
<nephele>
ermo: err, why would we have zsh per default?
<Begasus>
iirc zsh still has issues
<ermo[m]>
I may be mistaken, but zsh advertises good POSIX compatibility?
<nephele>
It's not compatible with sh, which makes it a bad "posix shell" kinda
<nephele>
MacOS uses zsh over bash because "no gpl" mainly
<nephele>
but you could also use mksh in that case, which is what android did
<nephele>
We have bash because "BeOS did it", and nobody changed it. Personally I could live without bash just fine, but then I doubt that mksh would be accepted by all other devs easily aswell
<nephele>
And also, i would much rather trash that entire layer and replace it with a better design *shrug*
<Begasus>
well maybe I'm wrong with zsh ;)
<ermo[m]>
I was actually wondering why Haiku doesn't simply import the stable FreeBSD base layer (libc + userland)
<ermo[m]>
since it's already importing drivers from FreeBSD (?)
<nephele>
why would we?
<ermo[m]>
MIT licensing
<nephele>
We have our own userland
<ermo[m]>
sorry, the coreutils equivalent
<nephele>
The idea to "just switch the kernel" is a bit silly and linux centric imo :P
<ermo[m]>
as I said, the coreutils CLI stuff
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<nephele>
it's coreutils + libc you would need to replace, we have our own libc with bits from different things (many things from glibc though)
<ermo[m]>
but if this is a historical artefact, then no worries. It was on the order of "stray thought", not "serious design change proposal" FWIW.
<nephele>
I think some work is trying to replace that with musl
<nephele>
Well, Haiku would want less GPL certainly, but "just copy this exactly" is probably not the way to go for now ;)
<nephele>
I mean, you could use FreeBSD, but then why not OpenBSD or toybox? etc
<nephele>
a lot of bikeshedding can ensue ;)
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<Begasus>
Did one for checking new version for libgeotiff (saw simular approach from Fedora)
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<idot>
nh
<idot>
nonij
<idot>
j vjc
<idot>
gv
<idot>
gfv
<idot>
gv
<idot>
gv
<idot>
bvh
<idot>
vg
<idot>
gv
<idot>
f
<idot>
df
<idot>
drs
<idot>
dx
<idot>
dfx
<idot>
cf
<idot>
gftfgt
<idot>
d
<idot>
dfx
<idot>
drs
<idot>
f
<idot>
fgv
<idot>
gv
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<jmairboeck>
fontconfig uses $secondaryArchSuffix in its cmd: provides. Can I just normally call fc-cache then, or is it called fc-cache-x86 on x86_gcc2?
<jmairboeck>
or does that just mean that the binary is in bin/x86 instead of bin?
<waddlesplash>
jmairboeck: both
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<waddlesplash>
the binary is in bin/x86 without postfix and is symlinked from bin with postfix
<jmairboeck>
so should I call fc-cache-x86 in the recipe or is bin/x86 in the PATH?
<jmairboeck>
thinking about it, probably it must be because haikuporter essentially must do something similar to `setarch x86` if building a secondaryArch recipe
<kallisti5[m]>
after that.. i'm going to introduce "https://lofi.haiku-os.org" it'll be (hopefully) running a small gemini server for Haiku.
<kallisti5[m]>
well.. gemini://lofi.haiku-os.org
<kallisti5[m]>
we might want to do gopher or whatever in the future too. tldr; lofi.haiku-os.org is a silly little thing for people who want low-bandwidth stuff :-)
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<europa64[m]>
Hey, hopefully this is the right place to ask for help. I'm trying to install Haiku on a ThinkPad T410 and, while it boots from the USB installer and installs just fine, I can't actually boot the OS. The system can't find a bootable drive.
<europa64[m]>
I went into the BIOS and set the SATA mode from AHCI to Compatibility in case that was causing an issue, but I saw no change.
<europa64[m]>
Does anyone know why this might be happening?
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<Begasus>
heading out here, cu peeps!
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<nephele>
kallisti5: heh, would be interesting if gemini will be supported in web+
<nephele>
(kind of want to adjust the gopher: support to support dark-mode automatically, that should match the "client decides rendering" model nicely imo)
<nephele>
heh, rebuild Renga to show gemini: uris... but it WebPositive opens duckduckgo searching for gemini: bah
<nephele>
Two geminin browsers in haikudepot, both buggy in the first 5 seconds of usage :/
<nephele>
The second one doesn't support copy pasting, has a hamburger menu and unusable scrollbar .-.
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<kallisti5[m]>
lagrange isn't bad
<kallisti5[m]>
that's kinda the defacto standard atm.
<nephele>
Well, i ment lagrange with "the second one"
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<nephele>
It doesn't do copy pasting and the scrollbar is way too small... I suppose that could be porting issues
<nephele>
which would raise the question why that recipe is even enabled .-.
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* Anarchos
succeeded in a pxe boot :)
<nephele>
nice
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<ermo[m]>
kallisti5: Gemini is one of my little "guilty pleasures", so that sounds cool =)
<ermo[m]>
I kinda like the idea.
<ermo[m]>
i mean, it's wonderfully impractical and opinionated, but that's also part of its charm.
<kallisti5[m]>
I do wish gemdoc was a bit better
<kallisti5[m]>
bold text, etc
<kallisti5[m]>
inline links. I get the point is "simple", but it's hard to even represent markdown cleanly in gemdoc
<ermo[m]>
I think it's also that the people behind don't want any way for advertising and user-hostile features to sneak in.
<ermo[m]>
i.e. intentionally hobbled to avoid clever arseholes doing stuff they aren't supposed to do.
<ermo[m]>
(if you'll pardon my french)
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<Anarchos>
hello folks !
<jadedctrl>
hey anarchos!
<Anarchos>
jadedctrl: i finally managed to have a PXE boot working :)
<jadedctrl>
heck yea, congrats :D
<Anarchos>
i had to use safe boot + disable io-apic, but i am very glad to see haiku booting from the net :)
<jadedctrl>
what use-case are you going for? diskless machine?
<Anarchos>
i want to play with haiku source code, and i am tired of using usb keys to install haiku
<jadedctrl>
ahh, that makes sense
<Anarchos>
jadedctrl: it is obvious that the transfer rate of a network boot is less than with a usb key plugged
<Anarchos>
but i don't need anymore to access physically to the machines
<Anarchos>
just put the image on the tftp server and type 'reboot' in a Terminal on the test machine :)
<Anarchos>
(well this setup is not fully working yet, cause i have to specify safe mode+disable io-apic in bootloader options)
<jadedctrl>
that's way more convenient, yea
<ermo[m]>
Sounds like potential HOWTO wiki article territory. Congratulations on the success. =)
<Anarchos>
jadedctrl: and i think i am first to have PXE working since 2018 cause there was some discusssions/troubles never solved :)
<Anarchos>
ermo[m]: yes i will try to write one :)
<Anarchos>
ermo[m]: but when haiku changes its blog architecture to github i never found time to look on the process, and all my old articles about texlive seem lost
<ermo[m]>
ouch
<Anarchos>
ermo[m]: i could never found my previous blog entries on the website