ChanServ changed the topic of #wayland to: https://wayland.freedesktop.org | Discussion about the Wayland protocol and its implementations, plus libinput
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<DemiMarie>
kennylevinsen: Qubes has its own GUI protocol, but I’m not sure how to extend it to support dmabuf for once Qubes gets hardware acceleration.
<DemiMarie>
@orowith2os:fedora.im: A full-screen compositor like Cage should do the job.
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<orowith2os[m]>
Demi: my goal was to have Xwayland manage Wayland windows too, so Cage would be *half* of the job, at most
<orowith2os[m]>
but I should definitely look at it for a bare minimum implementation
<orowith2os[m]>
and then fork it, or use something like Anvil, from Smithay
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<i509vcb>
orowith2os: a sort of waylandx so old wms can still be used?
<orowith2os[m]>
i509vcb: bingo
<orowith2os[m]>
another option is actually implementing a polar opposite of Xwayland, but you still have bare metal Xorg, which I Don't Like™
<i509vcb>
I could see it working assuming you can fight the X server and WMs
<i509vcb>
Personally I've been going towards making a window management protocol that has similar capabilities to X WMs but less messy
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<orowith2os[m]>
would definitely be interested in it, and see if it would be enough to get most of an XWM going on top of it (with Xwayland in the middle)
<i509vcb>
I'm curious if you could literally just use xwayland but make a compositor client that injects fake Wayland windows
<i509vcb>
And then just forward xwayland to the server
<orowith2os[m]>
may need a tiny bit more explanation there
<i509vcb>
Pretty much tell xwayland about fake X11 windows that are really Wayland ones. And then let the WM controlling xwayland do window management
<i509vcb>
Although that leaves the issue of compositing the Wayland surface content xwayland side
<i509vcb>
And subsurfaces are a fun mess you'd have to deal with
<orowith2os[m]>
wouldn't you also still need to have some sort of absolute positioning protocol for Xwayland, and a way to inject events and read everything about them from Xwayland?
<i509vcb>
This is definitely not my expertise, so I can only really guess
<orowith2os[m]>
ah
<orowith2os[m]>
my first thought would be that, as Wayland doesn't allow absolute positioning, you still can't have Xwayland manage windows - all it knows is that they exist
<i509vcb>
Well that's why I proposed having xwayland effectively only see X11 windows. From the Wayland side, pretend the Wayland windows don't logically exist
<orowith2os[m]>
you still get into the ickiness, pretty sure
<orowith2os[m]>
those fake X11 windows are still native Wayland windows
<i509vcb>
You'd just have your compositor render what xwayland does and lie to x11 about a few windows
<i509vcb>
Yeah that's the sticky bit
<orowith2os[m]>
*at the very least* you need to tell Xwayland that "key, you can access these special protocols" and use them to implement most of the X-isms inside of it
<orowith2os[m]>
s/key/hey
<orowith2os[m]>
a benefit would also be that you could reuse those protocols to implement that X WM behavior in your use case
<orowith2os[m]>
I should take a full and close look at everything necessary, and design (theoretical) protocols around them
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<kennylevinsen>
DemiMarie: I meant you can have whatever custom Wayland shell protocol to allow whatever you want
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<pq>
orowith2os[m], cage - Xwayland rootful - { X11 apps, WaylandX - Wayland apps }. You only need to invent WaylandX, and that will be "easy" because Wayland apps cannot position themselves, so the X11 WM running under Xwayland rootful can manage them like any X11 windows.
<pq>
no need for any new or privileged Wayland protocol
<kennylevinsen>
heh, so: wayland app -> wayland-to-x -> Xwayland + X11 WM -> Wayland server
<pq>
yup
<pq>
that's what they're asking, right? :-)
<kennylevinsen>
It would solve it
<pq>
I don't see any benefit combining WaylandX with the on-hardware Wayland compositor, their operation modes and environments would be completely different.
<pq>
Also a Wayland compositor's XWM would not be used at all for anything.
<kennylevinsen>
I believe the request was to have a "normal" Wayland server, but whose WM decisions only were made by an X11 WM through some unholy magic
<kennylevinsen>
but... yeah
<kennylevinsen>
it also seems like an extreme niche: you basically want X (with WaylandX compat layer), but Xorg itself can't be used because hw compat :S
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<pq>
maybe one could replace /usr/bin/Xorg with something that launches cage + Xwayland rootful...
<pq>
one would lose direct display control via X11, but that's all coming to my mind. Oh, multiple monitors might break?
<pq>
maybe not
<emersion>
could be fixed with multi-window Xwayland rootful
<pq>
or the Xwayland window just spanning all monitors
<emersion>
then there are "holes", fullscreen doesn't work, etc
<pq>
but it would match how Xorg works, right?
<pq>
RandR monitor / Xinerama would still communicate the monitor areas
<emersion>
RandR would just send one big screen
<pq>
that needs modifications then
<pq>
native Xorg multi-head is a single huge SCREEN, with monitor rectangles on it
<jadahl>
I imagine a rootful multi head Xwayland would first need some "multi monitor fullscreen" request, then use the configure event + scaling parameters to define its internal framebuffer size, then use xdg_output regions for randr plumbing
<emersion>
a multi monitor fullscreen request is unnecessary if you configure the outer compositor correctly
<emersion>
e.g. cage
<emersion>
i'd personally prefer something like multiuple xdg_toplevels plus viewporter or something, would fit better the design of Wayland
<jadahl>
I mean if one should be able to have a fullscreen Xwayland in your regular session just for a moment
<emersion>
(sway supports this FWIW)
<emersion>
(multi-monitor fullscreen)
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<pounce>
just curious, what's the state of non-rectangular screen geometry in Wayland currently
<pounce>
asking bc MacBook with a notch
<pounce>
currently asahi exposes the screen under the notch in the kernel and doesn't bother with it at all, but im wondering what work needs to be done (not including client software like bars) to make it work on the wayland side
<emersion>
pounce: there's an issue about this in wayland-protocols
<pq>
Unless you want applications to draw around notches and holes, there is no need for Wayland protocol and it's just a matter of the compositor finding out the holes and managing windows around them.
<kennylevinsen>
you probably want that for fullscreen
<kennylevinsen>
for windowed it's probably more reasonable to just have the compositor avoid the notch
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<kennylevinsen>
*fast forward to windows dynamically shuffling their content to evade the notch as they are moved*
<pq>
it depends, are apps even willing to handle the notch - if not, fullscreen needs to be a little less full
<pounce>
emersion: would appreciate a link, but i can find it myself later
<kennylevinsen>
makes sense to have it be optional
<emersion>
i think some apps will want to handle notches
<emersion>
android does this
<pq>
I'm sure some apps want to handle notches, and many more that don't.
<emersion>
sure, the compositopr can handle this
<emersion>
compositor*
<pq>
but if the DE puts a DE element around the notch, it know to do that correctly, and window management is all that's needed. Maybe paint the extra area black when an app is "almost" fullscreen.
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<pounce>
also you want the same bar on both sides of the notch
<pounce>
so this is something that should be communicated to the bar (its exclusion zones on the screen)
<pounce>
but also most applications in macOS in fullscreen just avoid the notch
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<DodoGTA>
Is there a way to create a software cursor on X11/Wayland?
<pq>
What do you mean?
<pq>
one that is guaranteed to not get into a KMS cursor plane?
<DodoGTA>
pq: One that doesn't appear in the x_cursor member of xwl_seat
<DodoGTA>
Or creating a cursor with SetCursor(NULL) for a Win32 equivalent
<kennylevinsen>
that's internal state to Xwayland
<kennylevinsen>
but a Wayland client is free to send set_cursor with a NULL surface to hide the cursor
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<DodoGTA>
kennylevinsen: How could I create a cursor without calling that set_cursor function after doing that?
<kennylevinsen>
this feels like an xy-problem scenario
<kennylevinsen>
You either have Wayland show a cursor surface (GPU or CPU rendered, composited or HW plane offloaded), or not.
<kennylevinsen>
Maybe a game would pick "not" if lets its game engine draw a fancy cursor
<DodoGTA>
kennylevinsen: That's what I meant by a software cursor
<kennylevinsen>
there's 3 different ways to interpret "software cursor" :)
<kennylevinsen>
then just set_cursor with a NULL surface to remove the cursor
<kennylevinsen>
remove/hide/whatever
<kennylevinsen>
there is no cursor to create after that, your application will have to figure out how to show something at coordinates of pointer events
<DodoGTA>
kennylevinsen: I wonder how cursor locking would work in that case (a game drawing its own cursor and set_cursor being NULL)
<kennylevinsen>
(note that the game could also attach an arbitrarily fancy cursor surface to the pointer instead of compositing it to its own toplevel)
<kennylevinsen>
DodoGTA: pointer constraints (how the pointer is allowed to move) and whether you have a cursor surface (how the pointer looks) are entirely orthogonal
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<i509vcb>
pounce: the notch thing is definitely uncharted territory on Linux, I'll probably end up trying to work around that at some point assuming I stop procrastinating on my compositor
<i509vcb>
Although no promises of a timeframe for protocol so clients can learn about cutouts
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