ChanServ changed the topic of #wayland to: https://wayland.freedesktop.org | Discussion about the Wayland protocol and its implementations, plus libinput
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<DemiMarie>
Has an absolute positioning protocol been considered? My use-case is support for legacy X11 applications in a virtualized environment (Qubes OS). Passing through X11 directly is horribly insecure so Qubes OS has its own GUI protocol right now.
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<bl4ckb0ne>
iirc it has been proposed but was nack'd very quickly
<DemiMarie>
why?
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<kennylevinsen>
DemiMarie: letting clients dictate what should be compositor and user policy is frowned upon, and global window positioning is one of the big things that Wayland explicitly and intentionally disallows
<orowith2os[m]>
if you need the feature, your best bet is just to live with it
<orowith2os[m]>
well, with out it
<orowith2os[m]>
if it matters for you enough, like being a desktop shell, there are dedicated protocols for that, like KDE's protocols and wlr-layer-shell
<kennylevinsen>
But I'd Qubes has a custom GUi protocol it can just have whatever specific Wayland protocols it needs
<kennylevinsen>
s/I'd/if/
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<orowith2os[m]>
Hm, could we have an absolute positioning protocol in the wayland-protocols repo?
<orowith2os[m]>
(a privileged protocol)
<orowith2os[m]>
Nothing any arbitrary client can manage
<orowith2os[m]>
The idea would be to use it for Xwayland, in a cursed setup which allows it to absolutely position windows, and would also allow running a separate XWM in Xwayland without needing anything special (aside from absolute positioning) in the compositor
<kennylevinsen>
orowith2os[m]: and then to finish the X11-without-xwm support you'd need the ability to arbitrarily stack windows, sniff all inputs freely, ...
<orowith2os[m]>
kennylevinsen: nothing that can't be made to only be allowed for Xwayland
<bl4ckb0ne>
and xeyes
<orowith2os[m]>
At the very least, if this means we can get rid of bare metal Xorg for everyone but NVIDIA, it would be great
<kennylevinsen>
orowith2os[m]: that's what the xwm integration is, so what's the point?
<kennylevinsen>
A hack protocol dedicated to xwayland but that isn't xwm integration specifically?
<orowith2os[m]>
It could be loosened up a bit to be useful for users like wlroots
<kennylevinsen>
What would we need it for in wlroots?
<orowith2os[m]>
One moment, refreshing on wlr-layer-shell
<kennylevinsen>
I'm pretty sure we'd be the last to add support for something so contrary to Wayland concepts :)
<orowith2os[m]>
Okay, this is only useful for the anchor bit of the layer shell protocol, if anything
<orowith2os[m]>
In that case, let's just make this fully Xwayland-specific
<kennylevinsen>
wlr-layer-shell allows output (non-window) surfaces, and these have positioning relative to their output. This already works. Special shell protocols with special rules already works.
<orowith2os[m]>
Like keyboard grabbing
<kennylevinsen>
No need for a general positioning protocol
<orowith2os[m]>
Even if you wanted to let Xwayland manage your Wayland windows?
<kennylevinsen>
Uh what
<ifreund>
why would anyone want that
<kennylevinsen>
Absolute window positioning -> a window can position itself, not position or see others
<kennylevinsen>
That while unwanted is far from a full X11-style WM protocol controlling and inspecting everything, and even further from bridging that to *actual X11 WMs*
<orowith2os[m]>
ifreund: running an XWM like i3 without integrating it into the Wayland compositor, or porting it to Wayland
<orowith2os[m]>
I'm open to listening to other solutions, or ones that already exist
<orowith2os[m]>
Hm
<kennylevinsen>
Gotta be honest, that sounds horrible and like a worst of everything solution: a Wayland server pretending everything is X11, imppementinf every quirky X11 behavior towards the X11 WM while trying to convert it's behavior to something fitting into Wayland...
<kennylevinsen>
if you want i3, just run sway. It takes very little to write a small server with wlroots, so that's likely what the small niche wm's become.
<kennylevinsen>
Alternatively, look at something like ifruend's river where specific "wm decisions" are moved to an external client
<orowith2os[m]>
My first thought is that it would be implementing the X11 behavior necessary for an XWM under Xwayland to work as if it was bare Xorg, so their lives can be extended just a bit while they get ported to Wayland
<orowith2os[m]>
You'd need a keybind protocol, which would be useful in wlroots for their portal. A protocol to allow Xwayland to position arbitrary Wayland windows. A protocol to associate wl_surfaces with X11 IDs.
<orowith2os[m]>
Afaik atm that's it to allow a full XWM to work under Xwayland
<psykose>
the "extended just a bit" doesn't really make sense. extended "why"? for "how long"? it's already been a decade
<orowith2os[m]>
Fair
<kennylevinsen>
orowith2os[m]: it would not be a few small protocols, it would be a huge effort to make a Wayland server that walks, talks and acts like an X11 server - whether through Xwayland or not.
<orowith2os[m]>
The best way I guess I can reply to that is, this is all just a what-if, and how would that what-if be achieved
<kennylevinsen>
Right now, the Wayland server is an X11 WM
<kennylevinsen>
You're basically suggesting making it the X11 server itself instead
<orowith2os[m]>
Yep
<kennylevinsen>
and then in turn basically making Wayland windows have the same status as X11 Windows have Noe through xwayland, and...
<kennylevinsen>
Now you are just running Xorg with WaylandX to show Wayland windows :P
<orowith2os[m]>
There is a difference between Xorg and Wayland though
<orowith2os[m]>
Especially when it comes to hardware support
<kennylevinsen>
while a funny thought experiment, it makes no sense - huge effort, much easier to just make a dedicated WM protocol, but nobody seems to want that as "small Wayland servers" instead of "complicated rats nest" is one of the cool Wayland things.
<orowith2os[m]>
My idea would work to get old X stuff working on modern hardware where bare metal Xorg isn't going to happen
<orowith2os[m]>
Assuming someone implements it
<kennylevinsen>
That's what Xwayland is for. Just use a normal Wayland server of choice.
<kennylevinsen>
If everything sucks, Xwayland rootful and i3
<orowith2os[m]>
Xwayland only works for interacting with X11 windows, and some can't work with just that - apparently some accessibility tools still need X11-isms (there is a portal proposal in the works, I'm keeping an eye on it) and using them on Wayland is iffy
<orowith2os[m]>
so if someone needs some accessibility tool and they use Asahi Linux, they're out of luck when it comes to X, with it barely functioning as-is
<kennylevinsen>
"only for interacting with X11 Windows" good enough for your described use case
<kennylevinsen>
For stuff that doesn't work, rootful which is 100% X
<orowith2os[m]>
apparently rootful Xwayland isn't quite what's desired here, as it's just one large Wayland window
<orowith2os[m]>
and it can't access windows outside of X
<psykose>
what would need access to wayland windows outside of X?
<orowith2os[m]>
a full XWM running under Xwayland
<kennylevinsen>
No
<psykose>
but you can just do that inside the X window without any wayland clients
<orowith2os[m]>
yes, and I'd like to have Wayland clients here
<kennylevinsen>
Your use case does not require an can controlling Wayland windows
<kennylevinsen>
You said running old X stuff - they run either in normal Xwayland (with a Wayland wm) or in rootful (with X11-only WM)
<kennylevinsen>
If you want a Wayland desktop, pick a Wayland WM
<kennylevinsen>
Running an X11 WM outside isolated rootful will not be supported and is arguably not a valid use case - use plain Xorg for that.
<orowith2os[m]>
I guess I should look more into what it would take to make a minimal Wayland compositor whose only goal is to have a custom XWM implementation tossed onto it, and try and deal with the bridging there on my own
<orowith2os[m]>
then I can realistically judge what the work would take, and see if it's worth doing over just saying "use bare metal Xorg"
<kennylevinsen>
You're free to try, but it sounds horribly unpleasant
<psykose>
kennylevinsen: your profile picture is funnily topical :-)
<kennylevinsen>
orowith2os[m]: and your first step would be to create the dedicated Wayland server for the project that will have all the WM management
<kennylevinsen>
psykose: it is very accurate hahaha