<bluetail>
if I use box64, I probably can hdsentinel. I'll try soon
<bluetail>
I want to use hdsentinel cause smartctl is not as nice
<TheDcoder>
Can't compile it for arm?
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<psykose>
it's proprietary so no
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<psykose>
there's an aarch64 version tho
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<TheDcoder>
sounds like it might do the trick
<TheDcoder>
anyway, why is the support for the speakers taking so long?... I mean we already have functioning GPU drivers!
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<Zopolis4>
different people interested in different things
<Zopolis4>
and like
<jn>
apple's speaker design is dancing pretty close to the physical limitations of the speakers, and requires significant software cooperation in order to get the full performance (sound good and loud) while staying safe (not melting)
<Zopolis4>
you can use headphones to replace speakers
<tpw_rules>
yeah, at least one set of speakers has already been melted in the interest of science. nobody's melted their GPU yet :)
<TheDcoder>
Ah...
<TheDcoder>
In that case, is it not possible to enable some kind of safe configuration which doesn't risk melting the speakers?
<TheDcoder>
even very low volume stuff
<tpw_rules>
i think that is coming soon maybe? but that is still difficult
<Tramtrist>
i am also excitedly patiently awaiting speaker enablement
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<jackos>
exit
<jackos>
exit
<jackos>
Sorry just installed weechat for the first time, figuring it out :)
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<chadmed>
TobiasGrosser: i didnt realise grub can handle an encrypted /boot is the simple answer as to why thats there :P
<chadmed>
i use sd-boot so the ESP is my /boot
<waldi>
chadmed: what do you gain from encrypting /boot, if you can't trust the code that decrypts it?#
<chadmed>
symbolic reassurance basically lmao
<chadmed>
m1n1 will eventually be able to verify the chainloaded payload so we will have a trust root all the way from bputil and the SEP to userspace
<chadmed>
but there are bigger fish to fry
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<chadmed>
couple notes about the speaker stuff since people were asking too
<chadmed>
the reason its taking "so long" is because we are not releasing anything that is subpar or could in any possible circumstance explode a machine
<chadmed>
there was some discussion about the best way to approach this and we believe we have a pretty bulletproof way to handle it, its just a matter of finding the time to implement it now
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<chadmed>
the pipewire DSP stuff in the asahi-audio main branch is 100% safe to use on a 14" macbook pro. cant say for a 16" but some folks have been testing it
<chadmed>
the problem is when you "accidentally" select a sink that isnt the DSP graph, or try to bypass pipewire
<chadmed>
which is why i dont advertise the stuff that much and will not help people enable their speakers if they cant figure it out for themselves
<chadmed>
ive also got faaar better sounding DSP waiting in the wings but thats not getting pushed until the safety stuff is resolved
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<dsharshakov>
Maybe when povik implements (at least in hv) the visense thing you can figure out the safe limit which yields almost no heating thus can be enabled (with just the volume cap in machine asoc driver). Sure, dissatisfactional to someone, but still enabled and working.
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<chadmed>
i have a poc rust safety daemon already
<dsharshakov>
Btw how is excursion currently limited in lower part of the stack (kernel or speakersafetyd prototype)?
<dsharshakov>
chadmed: yes, but IIUC no visense in kernel at the moment
<chadmed>
excursion prediction is hard and taxing and we dont have the tools or data to do it properly
<chadmed>
we dont have all the required TS params for excursion and even if we did TI's tools to model it are gated behind an NDA etc
<dsharshakov>
yes
<chadmed>
and yeah i'm just waiting on the visense stuff to get implemented (nowhere near competent enough to bother trying it myself) and then ill sort out the daemon
<dsharshakov>
how dangerous is overexcursion from the physical part of this hw?
<chadmed>
the alsa rust crate will need some new bindings for the pcm interface but the daemon has most of the core logic we need ready to go
<chadmed>
well i tested some.... significant excursion and the things didnt break
<chadmed>
youd have to be trying very very very hard to damage the woofers from overexcursion alone
<dsharshakov>
idk what kinetic energy would that speaker have, but maybe it's not sufficient to really harm it
<chadmed>
one thing that will help mitigate it is if we decide to do virtbass then we can bump the high pass on the woofers to 100hz and that will get rid of basically all the overexcursion
<chadmed>
in my testing they only really do it on fat bass hits
<dsharshakov>
yes, so likely that can be ignored as you need -> broken pw config -> loud volume -> ignoring rattle -> long-term to do (possible) damage
<chadmed>
yup
<dsharshakov>
re virtbass: I thought about having profiles for filter-chain. So we can have "fake bass - high volume" and "real bass - low volume" (removing compressor maybe)
<dsharshakov>
and maybe real bass + high volume + high CPU
<chadmed>
the thing about virt bass is that the average person's brain (weirdos like myself notwithstanding) cant tell between it and "real" bass
<chadmed>
so i think if we do end up writing a biquad chain to do it, we just ship that and taking it off can be an exercise for the reader if they so choose
<bluetail>
whats virt bass? Also the other day wim asked for you chadmed on #pipewire
<dsharshakov>
yes, but maybe someone would like to have true bass for some reason
<chadmed>
virtual bass is a psychoacoustic phenomenon where your brain will interpret harmonics of bass frequencies as the "real" one
<chadmed>
its used in small embedded devices all the time to make them sound good, but its not a very well documented trick
<chadmed>
theres a couple of IEEE papers on it and some commercial XXXTREME ULTRA PHAT SUBWOOFER 69420 vsts for DAWs
<dsharshakov>
so you actually play 200 + 400 hz to hear it as 50 hz (sorta)
<bluetail>
I see. By the way, I want to try coaxial speakers soon because they tend to be less critical in non-ideal rooms but have less bass.
<dsharshakov>
higher frequency harmonics make your brain autocomplete the low frequency it thinks those originated from
<chadmed>
yeah thats pretty much it
<chadmed>
its used in embedded devices so that they can cut out having to amplify and play bass and sub bass notes
<chadmed>
which means less cone excursion and less power use
<chadmed>
so you can get away with smaller amps
<dsharshakov>
how loud is the machine if you eliminate rattle without compressor (just lower volume to avoid cones touching chassis)?
<chadmed>
loud enough that it hurts my ears if im in the same room with it
<chadmed>
oh without compressor
<dsharshakov>
maybe volume caps would be nice then?
<chadmed>
yeah nah forget it you get weird volume slider behaviour
<chadmed>
where you lose basically all volume at like 30%
<chadmed>
but then 60% is too loud
<chadmed>
we already have a hard cap that is ~3 dB lower than macOS in the kernel
<chadmed>
i take that off on all my kernel builds for science
<chadmed>
but you still get overexcursion with that limit AND the silly volume slider behaviour
<chadmed>
hell, you can saturate macos's virtual sink and make it rattle a bit too
<chadmed>
so the compressor is absolutely necessary in any case, what virtual bass will let us do is cut out one of the bands and save a bit of cpu time and energy consumption by setting the HPFs a bit higher
<chadmed>
im at the point where i think that people who refuse to use pipewire for whatever reason just have to put up with a slightly lower QoL
<dsharshakov>
yes
<dsharshakov>
if they really care they can do filtering in some ALSA plugin
<chadmed>
we will stop their machines from outright melting and dying but we cant gimp the desktop experience for the lowest common denominator, its just silly
<chadmed>
thats how i did a lot of my early testing before i wrapped my head around pipewire
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<dsharshakov>
well, rattle should be pretty much safe + fairly noticeable I believe (how loud is it?)
<chadmed>
the overexcursion is a very distinct sound and a humans first instinct when they hear it should be to turn the volume down
<chadmed>
its not like clipping where its just "skull yeah bro sick bass" its extremely annoying and sounds unhealthy
<dsharshakov>
yea, nice. then people are normally expected to avoid that: especially when tuning stuff in configs
<chadmed>
yeah, plus it only really happens with my DSP because of the filters which increase gain
<dsharshakov>
if they don't, 99% everything is okay and 1% they've being doing dumb things
<chadmed>
with bare alsa it shouldnt happen unless youre being an absolute ass, and the safety daemon should sense that kind of power going through the system and pull it back anyway
<chadmed>
and like i said, bare alsa users are just gonna have to accept a lower QoL. so long as their machines dont let the magic smoke out, im satisfied
<dsharshakov>
alright. just want to ensure that nobody relies on PW/WP solely for safety
<dsharshakov>
probably will do some WP work soon
<chadmed>
oh yeah for sure that was never going to be the case
<chadmed>
if we needed to worry about excursion for safety reasons id 100% find a way to model it
<chadmed>
but ive done some absolutely heinous things to this macbook and its still alive
<dsharshakov>
btw checked the mb compressor. it solely takes 10% of one core on Ryzen at 1400 mhz base clock
<chadmed>
yeah its not very efficient :P
<chadmed>
it uses about 50% of an Icestorm core at 600 MHz
<chadmed>
amazingly if i renice pipewire to -11 it doesnt stall or anything at 96kHz
<chadmed>
but thats still too much
<dsharshakov>
Maybe the plugin lacks some NEON or other optimizations?
<chadmed>
it's possible. i havent really looked at the source code for it yet
<dsharshakov>
since I'd expect it to be 25% if ryzen could run at 600 mhz
<chadmed>
it depends on the source actually, ive seen it anywhere between 20 and 50
<chadmed>
fluidsynth at 1.0 gain makes it very grumpy
<dsharshakov>
maybe run some plugin after the crossover somehow?
<dsharshakov>
might need more work but I believe the necessary effect is: volume on woofer too high -> reduce input volume
<chadmed>
tweeters too
<chadmed>
so the thing is if you compress the woofers you necessarily also need to pull the tweeters out by some ratio
<chadmed>
which is why im using multiband in the first place
<dsharshakov>
libebur128 could help us with that sort of loudness normalization. just take lows out and monitor for it, reducing input gain when needed
<dsharshakov>
no, I mean adjusting stereo input knob accordingly
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<chadmed>
that might work
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<chadmed>
if im not mistaken, pipewire changed to controlling the input to a sink with the volume control recently, no?
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<dsharshakov>
what's the purpose of multiband compressor? I believe it checks woofer-band signals and compresses everything in case it's needed. Correct me if I'm wrong
<chadmed>
no it checks the passbands its configured for and compresses _only_ those passbands
<chadmed>
on the stereo signal
<dsharshakov>
chadmed: wdym about volume?
<chadmed>
before it goes to the convolvers
<dsharshakov>
so it compresses woofers only?
<chadmed>
no if you have a look at the config in the j314-18db branch
<dsharshakov>
Why not place it after the woofer FIR then?
<chadmed>
it also pulls down a tweeter passband
<chadmed>
like i said earlier, because you necessarily _need_ to tame the tweeters by some amount if youre pulling signal out of the woofers to maintain the balance
<chadmed>
otherwise as you crank the volume up and the woofer bands get compressed, you get a very harsh and tinny tweeter sound
<chadmed>
so its better to do it as a multiband on the stereo signal before it even hits the convolvers
<dsharshakov>
Yes, so it compresses everything?
<chadmed>
not _everything_ just certain bands
<dsharshakov>
what to be certain?
<dsharshakov>
sorry, likely I'm being way too dumb
<chadmed>
it doesnt compress the mids for example because i already do that in the IR, so by not compressing the mids we get an approximation of equal loudness compensation without adding more crap into the chain
<chadmed>
well look at the config file
<chadmed>
it literally has the passbands in it
<chadmed>
band 0 is 0hz to the frequency of band 1, which is 160hz
<chadmed>
band 1 is 160hz to 400hz
<chadmed>
and band 7 is 2k and up
<chadmed>
notice how i dont pull band 7 out nearly as much or aggressively as the lower bands
<chadmed>
which is why a blanket compressor/limiter is unsuitable
<chadmed>
the human ear isnt that nice to work with
<chadmed>
and by volume what i mean is ive noticed that i no longer need a dummy sink to make the compressor work properly
<chadmed>
as in, when i turn the volume up/down in plasma, it seems to be affecting the signal strength on the _input_ side of the sink, not attenuating the final output
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<dsharshakov>
you need to adjust the filter-chain volume
<chadmed>
yeah thats the volume im adjusting
<chadmed>
before a recent update, adjusting that would attenuate the output side of the filter chain
<dsharshakov>
btw you need `device.api` set for it to work well in plasma
<dsharshakov>
ah, nice
<chadmed>
such that the compressor would be permanently compressing anything that comes into it as if it were max volume (the input gain is 1)
<chadmed>
so i needed a dummy sink to be the "volume control" so that the input to the compresor was the one being varied
<chadmed>
but now i dont need to do that
<chadmed>
was just wondering if you knew why or what got changed bc i cant seem to see why
<chadmed>
(this is a good thing btw it means one less useless virtual sink)
<dsharshakov>
maybe you were adjusting the filter-chain output stream or real hw sink volume
<dsharshakov>
if you changed input sink volume it must've worked ~everytime
<dsharshakov>
wdyt about using libebur128 for some other normalization mechanism (maybe not compressor but gain-based)?
<chadmed>
does it integrate with pipewire and is it widely packaged
<chadmed>
like i said im not keen on introducing more deps that require packaging
<chadmed>
besides loudness norm is not _really_ what we're trying to do here
<chadmed>
i dont want to crush the dynamic range of an entire input signal when all we really need is to tame down spikes that cause overexcursion and do equal loudness (which is not the same as loudness normalisation)
<dsharshakov>
I suggested it just as a cheaper alternative
<chadmed>
yeah
<chadmed>
i just dont think it really does what we need it to
<chadmed>
if we have to live with the cpu use of the compressor then so be it i guess
<chadmed>
(its how youd fix overexcursion even if you could model it, youd just have a more accurate idea of what exactly you need to compress and by how much)
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<TheDcoder>
I would've never thought so much science would go into userspace audio tuning... don't devices usually have a dedicated DSP to process the raw signal to something usable by the speakers?
<ChaosPrincess>
a lot of stuff does that in firmware
<ChaosPrincess>
but since apple vertically integrates from hardware to os, the boundaries between firmware and os are not the same here
<povik>
yeah, the dedicated DSP part isn't there
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<TheDcoder>
That's sad...
<TheDcoder>
povik: Thanks for working on this! chadmed as well I think.
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<kjoonlee>
IDENTIFY
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<chadmed_>
TheDecoder: it's not sad at all, it gives us something fun to do and a nice challenge
<chadmed_>
can we beat apple at their own game? so far the answer is yes with a bit of tweaking
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<mps>
heh, remember time when I built audio output over parallel port using resistors ladder network
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<knedlik>
Hello! Seems that I'm connected correctly now :D I'm interested in looking around Asahi and perhaps helping out, but I have no idea where to start. Could someone help me out? Should I perhaps ask in the dev channel?
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<ah->
btw. are there are j316 responses? I tried the j314 ones the other day and they sounded a little off
<ah->
way better than not having them, but not quite as good as with osx
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<chadmed_>
ah-: i dont have a 16" macbook to test on so being a little off is expected
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<eggnog>
hey guys, it doesn't seem like it's possible to install asahi on an external ssd is it? seems like it must be on the same as MacOS installation and partition there. I'd like to be able to dedicate part of my SSD to asahi as I simply don't have the space on my macos drive
<j`ey>
it is possible, but you have to do it manually, there's no easy installer way currently
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<eggnog>
oh okay, is there some sort of article or something I can follow to get that done or is that something I have to know myself how to do
<j`ey>
don't think anyone has written it up
<eggnog>
hm, okay, this really isn't my expertise so I have no clue where to start, but thanks for the info I can now try to look into it!
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