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<zuse>
hello
<zuse>
Is using asahi on m1 dangerous right now. Is it possible to harm my computer.
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<nicolas17>
zuse: no, the hardware is designed to be un-brickable
<nicolas17>
you *could* lose your data so you should make backups, but no matter how badly you screw things up, it's always possible to do a clean reinstall of macOS
<tpw_rules>
(it might need another computer though
<zuse>
possibilities .) i don't think asahi will screw up system and make me reinstall macos because they are seperate aren't they?.
<zuse>
which program you use for accesing this chat website version oftc irc is looking complicated or i am too young for all this
<nicolas17>
zuse: I don't think it will happen no
<nicolas17>
I'm just saying that's the *worst* thing that can happen
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<zuse>
i see thanks sir
<zuse>
can you tell me little about irc?
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<ligma_toad>
btw, if any Asahi contributors or staff are in here?
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<ligma_toad>
it's pretty impessive stuff you all have been able to accomplish in so little time, nice work :)
<ligma_toad>
I still mainly use macos but asahi seems pretty nice
<ligma_toad>
as someone who plans to use this macbook for work, it's quite nice to be able to run linux natively for those times when a task is not as easy in macOS as it is in Linux
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<kjoonlee>
marcan: thank you, I’ll try again later after disabling third-party key remapping programs
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<kjoonlee>
marcan: indeed, it was an issue with input-remapper-git; keys do indeed repeat with it disbled, and now I've switched to keyd for remapping keys
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<alyssa>
i find it kinda curious that there's an m2 pro mini, but not an m2 max mini
<alyssa>
unless that's for marget segmentation / marketing reasons rather than technical ones
<alyssa>
and we'll see an m2 max studio released together with an m2 ultra studio?
<alyssa>
(and m2 extreme i guess?)
<delsol>
alyssa: possibly heat reasons also
<alyssa>
delsol: I'm not sure that makes sense... if anything the mini should be easier to cool than the laptops
<alyssa>
although I guess the bigger physical form factor of the studio makes cooling easier
<alyssa>
Maybe I'll wait for the M3.
<alyssa>
I'm fairly sure that the M3 series GPU will mostly just work with Mesa once it's out
<delsol>
alyssa: yes and no.
<delsol>
look at volume.
<delsol>
the mac mini includes the power supply IN its volume
<delsol>
and its still pretty damn freaking small.
<jannau>
at least the 14" mbp can't cool the m1 max under continuous load
<delsol>
on bursty workloads, its fine...
<delsol>
on sustained GPU load.......
<alyssa>
jannau: yeah.
<delsol>
Also, do you find the 16/19/30/38 odd?
<jannau>
also the m2 pro mac mini is more expansive than the m1 max mac studio (32GB ram, 10GB ethernet)
<jannau>
s/expansive/expensive/
<delsol>
... is there actually 20/40 GPU cores on die...... and they're saving all the "perfect" ones that clock well at lower voltages for the M2-Ultra and M2-ShortIntelStockNow
<alyssa>
jannau: curious
<alyssa>
delsol: lol @ the new M2 name :-p
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<delsol>
alyssa: if its got an IO die, with a couple extra slotted DDR5 channels.... and PCIe.... and 4 M2-Max dies attached to it....
<delsol>
and a price less than a Honda Civic.... then yes, consider shorting intel stock. Doubly so if it runs linux workloads and comes in a rackmount form factor.....
<alyssa>
giggle
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<bluetail>
delsol I miss 10GBe
<bluetail>
like why the heck would they not add it especially for the top model
<bluetail>
and like you said, in rackmount server setups it makes a lot of sense
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<jannau>
I'm still sceptical of 4x Mx max configurations. why would you want 20 large display controllers in a rackmount server
<bluetail>
fancy tailored screens infront of each device maybe? xD
<delsol>
jannau: video wall.
<bluetail>
playing touhou on them of course, on thousands of screens
<bluetail>
bad apple ...
<delsol>
or use otherwise perfect dies, with a bad display controller..... for die 3 and 4?
<delsol>
Look at all the silicon intel is wasting in Sapphire Rapids on accelerators that are disabled on the majority of SKU's
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<opticron>
like avx512?
<opticron>
nvm, it has that
<opticron>
I was thinking consumer chips with intel's big.LITTLE equivalent
<Soni>
does asahi have a CLAT?
<alyssa>
fichcha
<delsol>
opticron: extra accelerators, on the big quad-die tile, you get up to 60 cores, and 4/4/4/4 accelerators... but the vast majority of SKU's get only 1 of each accelerator max... the extras are buy-later add-ons
<delsol>
or rentable by the hour/day/etc
<opticron>
weird and I hate it
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<delsol>
hey, look at it this way, Sapphire Rapids has usable to the CPU cores memory bandwidth of 250GB/s!!!!
<delsol>
thats 10% more than an M1-Max!
<Soni>
alyssa: huh?
<nicolas17>
it makes sense for cloud servers tbh, they only activate them and pay Intel for those compute-hours if the cloud customer pays for it on their cloud VM
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<delsol>
nicolas17: sure. But it also reduces the likelyhood of people programming to use them.
<delsol>
and thus will end up dead silicon on the huge vast majority of SKU's
<nicolas17>
true
<delsol>
right along with the other umpteen cores and mountain of cache you didn't buy.
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<ncl>
i think this is the first i've seen someone complain about too much cache
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<ligma_toad>
hi, am I good to unmount '/Volumes/Asahi\ Linux/' in macOS?
<ligma_toad>
I've already installed Asahi, it works, and I ran '/Volumes/Asahi\ Linux/Finish Installation.app'
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<nicolas17>
Soni: how does that affect asahi?
<Soni>
nicolas17: microsoft and linux are the major holdbacks for deploying 464XLAT more often
<Soni>
and asahi is a linux
<nicolas17>
does Linux have a CLAT implementation?
<Soni>
we don't know
<nicolas17>
you just want Asahi to add one more Arch package to its default image?
<j`ey>
nicolas17: I don't think it's relevant to asahi
<Soni>
there's TAYGA but is that even maintained
<Soni>
does asahi add a bunch of stuff to the default image?
<Soni>
nah, might be useful in a guide tho
<ligma_toad>
arch is pretty much the easiest distro to install packages in. pacman rocks, and then there is the AUR
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<Soni>
but it should ideally be officially supported
<j`ey>
the minimal image just adds the asahi kernel/bootloader packages, and networking etc
<Soni>
(it would be nice if systemd-networkd supported it but eh, different can of worms)
<psykose>
i spent 5 minutes on google and i still can't figure out what clat is
<nicolas17>
some ipv6 transition thing
<Soni>
it's for 464XLAT
<Soni>
it's defined in the 464XLAT RFC
<nicolas17>
if there's no Linux implementation, we're not gonna make one
<nicolas17>
if it's not packaged in Arch, you need to go talk to Arch people
<nicolas17>
if it's a matter of "add this one package from Arch's repository to Asahi's default image" *then* you can ask here :P
<psykose>
ah i see now
<psykose>
yeah this is just some networking stuff and not related to asahi
<j`ey>
nicolas17: sounds pretty specific to be added to the base image anyway
<nicolas17>
j`ey: even if it wasn't "pretty specific", it's like asking us for HEIF image support; get it into KDE's image viewer or whatever, get it packaged in Arch, and only *then* it might possibly be something relevant to ask Asahi people :P
<nicolas17>
bcrumb: what about it? I've been using it for a while on my Mac :P
<nicolas17>
first implementation of SEP-backed SSH keys for macOS was in 2017 ("sekey")
<bcrumb>
idk, just saw
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<ncl>
i vaguely like the concept but i dont like the idea of hwtokens for consumers? i guess
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<ncl>
the point is mostly that you can't make a backup, if you're a business you can verify your identity and rotate keys in case of damage/loss
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<nicolas17>
I don't think I have ever copied a ssh private key between computers
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<ar>
forcing that on everyone isn't probably a good idea, but I do love having that option
<sven>
just add multiple keys *shrug*
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<ncl>
sven: and buy multiple expensive machines just to keep as backup?
<ar>
and for ssh you can do certificates, which is nicer anyway
<ncl>
ssh certs kind of suck but there's been like a handful of attempts at doing pki for ssh
<sven>
you mean multiple 20€ or so yubikeys for devices that don’t have a Secure Enclave like thing?
<nicolas17>
I suppose if you only own a single computer you could want a ssh private key backup :P
<bcrumb>
I think optimum is synchronized keedpassxc databases accross devicres
<ncl>
sven: i thought the original thing was storing in apple's secure enclave
<nicolas17>
ncl: it is
<ncl>
i mean, yubikeys are still a step up but it's like
<sven>
yes? But that’s the same as storing in a yubikey except that you don’t waste a typec port
<ncl>
sven: except you can move a yubikey between machines,
<nicolas17>
if you lose your Apple machine, then the backup is you login with your other key (which could be yubikey-backed)
<ncl>
idk for personal use it seems excessive and if you're worried about someone stealing a privkey off your encrypted-at-rest drive then assume they can also just sneakily control your tty as well?
<sven>
stealing keys from a machine is just a random exploit in a random app you’re running
<sven>
hardware keys or the Secure Enclave protects against that
<ncl>
if you're running under X any application can hijack display/mouse/keyboard so /shrug
<sven>
yes, but you’re not compromised forever
<nicolas17>
(currently, if you're running under X you don't get to use the secure enclave either :D)
<sven>
and each key operation requires physical presence (e.g. Touch ID or pressings the button on the yubikey)
<ncl>
you can.. rotate keys like you were saying earlier
<sven>
huh?
<ncl>
idk it's like at the point of protection this gets for personal use there feels like plenty of easier methods exist to own me
<nicolas17>
it's always a tradeoff between security and convenience
<ncl>
even looking at apple's security, just read through recent CVEs they've published
<nicolas17>
and I really don't find this too inconvenient
<nicolas17>
install app, add something to .ssh/config
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<ncl>
plenty of sandbox bypasses etc.
<ar>
ncl: tbqh, with all the extra optional protocols wayland is getting these days, it's not like the security story thereis much better
<ar>
there is*
<nicolas17>
ncl: you mean sandbox bypasses that would let an app read my .ssh/id_rsa, which won't work in the SEP case? :)
<ar>
and the extra protocols are needed for things that people actually do, like playing games and sharing screens over video chat apps
<ncl>
nicolas17: ok but what's more important, your vps or your bank account
<nicolas17>
my bank account has TOTP 2FA and I don't save its password anywhere
<sven>
uh, my bank account also requires the yubikey to get the login password and then two factor auth that’s not on my computer
<ncl>
and once you login?
<nicolas17>
the TOTP 2FA is to do a transfer
<ChaosPrincess>
arguably, bank account is a bit less impact than ransomware
<ncl>
if the device is otherwise compromiseable i mean,
<ChaosPrincess>
cause in that case you usually can revert the transaction
<ar>
sven: oh, nice. none of the banks here even have optional support for webauthn or u2f or anything like that
<sven>
mine doesn’t either
<ncl>
it's like you have the world's most secure door but someone can still tailgate in behind you
<sven>
but my password manager for the important stuff is encrypted with a private key on that yubikey
<sven>
and the additional 2fa is just some hardware token generator
<ncl>
take one of the permission bypasses apple has published in the last year and just, attack the browser once logged in
<sven>
but anyway, this is all fits better into #asahi-offtopic
<nicolas17>
also my ssh key can access kde.org servers, so I should probably get *better* security than what I have now :P
<ncl>
nicolas17: yeah i mean, again im arguing personal not org/business
<nicolas17>
in FOSS that's blurry
<nicolas17>
is the VPS hosting asahilinux.org "personal"? :)
<bcrumb>
ncl: vps
<bcrumb>
>his vps is not his bank account
<bcrumb>
or the inverse >his bank account is not his vps (???)
<ncl>
nicolas17: still easier to reach out to a colleague and go "i've been compromised i'll video chat you later with new creds" vs doing the same with personal stuff
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<mattf>
I am a future asahi user. Will emacs work? :)
<j`ey>
yes
<j`ey>
needs to be a new enough version, but yes
<mattf>
cool, and I plan on getting a moonlander mark I keyboard. I know it works on linux (is the keyboard DT uses) its open source firmware
<mattf>
that might work fine too right?
<j`ey>
Im assuming it's just USB, so yes
<mattf>
it is.
<j`ey>
some USB keyboards dont work in the earliest stage of bootloader, but it's rare to need that anywya
<mattf>
i see. well it is a fancy keyboard with key remapping
<ChaosPrincess>
almost all keyboards have their basic features (keys) implemented via hid, and everything supports hid
<jannau>
USB hid keyboard woes in u-boot should be solved
<mattf>
will I have the super performance for compiling stuff like in the normal mac OS? Does it lack anything performance wise?
<j`ey>
yes you will have good perf
<ChaosPrincess>
no
<j`ey>
oh
<ChaosPrincess>
everything perf related is there
<ChaosPrincess>
i think it might be even faster in some cases
<j`ey>
(nearly, there's a turbo boost that gives an extra 0.2GHz or so that doesnt work)
<j`ey>
(that isnt supported in asahi yet)
<mattf>
Can I dual boot with the factory OS? Can the two systems share a mount?
<mattf>
can i share the /home
<mattf>
:P
<j`ey>
not easily, you can have a shared FAT partition, or I think there's some paid software that can read ext4 from macOS?
<mattf>
oh thats annoying
<mattf>
only FAT ?
<j`ey>
dual boot is how it currently works
<ChaosPrincess>
hfs is a thing too
<ChaosPrincess>
and exfat
<mattf>
ok so i can at least share a partition, would be nice if i could share my home partition
<mattf>
so my company will buy me the macbook with m1 or m2. Which model should I ask them? I see the macbook 2023 16inch is the best but everything is TBD there
<mattf>
Im an old linux user but would be fine to use macos for a while if that TBD doesn't take like years :P
<j`ey>
the 2023 ones will probably Just Work
<j`ey>
with the current code
<j`ey>
(at least some of the more basic parts)
<mattf>
cool
<delsol>
ncl: I didn't complain about too much cache.... just that intel is disabling a huge mountain of cache when you buy the lower-tier CPU's or SKU's optimized for other stuff. The most extreme case seems to be going from 112.5MB of cache on die... to 45mb.
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<jannau>
usb3 over usb-c, display and gpu support will probably take a little time on m1 pro/max. display out on the m2 mac mini might take a little as well
<jannau>
display and gpu will take a while on the m2 mac mini as well since that also requires porting to newer firmware
<j`ey>
jannau: did you buy one of the new models?
<jannau>
not yet
<sven>
I’d guess we just need fuses for the m2 pro/max
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<ChaosPrincess>
the compatibles for the acio is different in the apple devicetree
<sven>
that’s only required for thunderbolt
<sven>
and the atcphy compatible for M1 Pro/max was also different and yet everything worked the same
<sven>
as usual, the adt is not very trustworthy
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<jannau>
yes, I expect that we just need the fuses. atc-phys have "atc-phy,t8112" compatibility
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<thansen>
is it possible to enable speakers/headphones in their current state at all?
<thansen>
err, microphone I mean
<jannau>
speakers yes, still not adviseable, built-in microphones no
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<opticron>
sometimes I think it'd be better to enable the speakers in a "safe" mode, but then people would complain that they're too quiet...
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<zzywysm>
thansen: i think the principle at play is "yes, it's possible to turn the speakers on, but we are not going to show you how, assuming that if you're smart enough to figure out how, you're smart enough not to risk blowing the speakers up"
<thansen>
no complaints from me! is the concern about blowing the speakers out still? what are the steps to enable the quiet/safe mode? and is there any doc possible working on the fixing up the code or contributing to get them going? I don't think I would be much help on the webcam but maybe could fumble through helping with the sound..
<thansen>
fair enough
<j`ey>
theres no quiet/safe mode
<thansen>
I was curious how the headphones are supposed to work when I didn't see any alsa device? I assume the headphones need some sort of sound device to function and not exactly sure how to enable the device without also enabling the speakers
<j`ey>
you cant accidentally enable the speakers
<zzywysm>
headphones should work, especially since i think m a r c a n fixed some of the code in the past couple of days. if your headphones don't work at the moment, there's a better chance they will the next time asahi linux ships a linux kernel update
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<thansen>
well, I just didn't see an alsa device at all on the machine I was helping someone with
<thansen>
presumably that needs to be for the headphones to work yeah?
<mattf>
Will a usb headset work, microphone and speaker?
<jannau>
thansen: are you using the asahi distribution? headset audio should just work in the desktop image
<thansen>
yeah it was asahi (don't have the machine in my possession atm however)
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<thansen>
I didn't see any alsa devices at all..but that was a couple weeks ago so things may have changed
<jannau>
mattf: most likely (if the usb headset uses the usb audio class) but headphones/microphone work with the headset jack
<thansen>
I have another device I *could* install on but I'm trying to decide if it's too pre-mature and/or if I can be of any use helping with some of the missing gaps
<jannau>
thansen: headset support on all machines (except the 2 usb port imac variant (typo)) should be there since autumm
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<thansen>
just read the blog post about the hypothetical daemon to help make speakers safe. Are all the bits in place to implement that or something more needed at the lower levels?
<thansen>
how was that written if the kernel bits aren't in place yet? or does it not actually function?
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<thansen>
nm, I see mock implementation is mentioned
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<nicolas17>
thansen: you won't see an ALSA device for the speakers because your kernel is unaware you even have speakers, it's intentionally missing from the devicetree
<thansen>
I don't see an alsa device *at all*
<thansen>
I'm assuming in order to playback on the headphones via the 3.5 jack I should have *something* right?