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<nephele>
x512: yeah, we have openssl. It can be used, otherwise I think only a review for a new "cryptokit" which would also be based on it
<nephele>
otherwise, depending on what checksum functions you want we do have some in fs drivers i think... and the standard sha256sum set of commands from coreutils
<andreasdr[m]>
Good morning
<nephele>
hi there andreasdr
<andreasdr[m]>
Hi nephele.
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<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] 946bd9ab3c42 - HaikuPorts: bump arm build-packages via davidkaroly
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<win8linux[m]>
Does Haiku have support for USB audio?
<x512[m]>
win8linux: Only for USB 3+ and with manually compiled drivers. usb_audio driver currently have some small glitches while playing.
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<win8linux[m]>
If I boot to a previous system state, then run FilWip to wipe previous system states, will I only have access to the latest system state or the one where FilWip was ran on?
<win8linux[m]>
Asking since updating today broke Quaternion, but a previous system state restores it.
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<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] 3571cd8a6b99 - StyledEdit: Add comment explaining MakeFocus() loc
<waddlesplash>
trungnt2910[m]: got a paste of the crash report from the shell?
<waddlesplash>
win8linux[m]: I don't think FilWip is intelligent enough to handle this case so it will probably delete the state yo uare actually running on.
<win8linux[m]>
It was either dive into the depths of the monstrosity that is the NT kernel or VM.
<waddlesplash>
yes, I know
<waddlesplash>
also, the NT kernel isn't "that" bad anymore to my knowledge
<waddlesplash>
I've read that comment when it was posted in 2018 I think
<trungnt2910[m]>
A really dumb idea but:
<trungnt2910[m]>
The `runtime_loader` and `libroot.so` doesn't depend on anything, except syscalls, right?
<waddlesplash>
well, and commpage, but yes
<trungnt2910[m]>
So can we implement some kind of Haiku userland on Linux.
<waddlesplash>
that is more or less what libroot_build is already
<trungnt2910[m]>
Really good for cross-compiling scenarios.
<waddlesplash>
that's how we build Haiku on Linux/BSD/etc.
<trungnt2910[m]>
Can it emulate a sysroot and run command line apps?
<waddlesplash>
it's not complete because there's tons of functionality that is very hard to implement outside the Haiku kernel
<waddlesplash>
the biggest problem is attributes emulation, this is the biggest reason your builds are so slow especially in mimeset
<waddlesplash>
you have to use XFS or another filesystem on linux that actually supports unlimited size xattrs
<win8linux[m]>
waddlesplash: It improved a bit when the graphics subsystem was taken out of it for Windows 10, but it still keeps accumulating cruft that almost nobody knows how to deal with (much less want).
<waddlesplash>
I think you're selling the MS devs a little short there
<waddlesplash>
anyway, there's probably other technical reasons they don't do stat caching even at the NTFS level
<waddlesplash>
in Haiku, stat caching occurs somewhere inbetween the VFS and the FS driver level
<waddlesplash>
it's dependent on the FS driver to add/update the entry/lookup cache, but the VFS will access it without touching the driver assuming the FS driver does add entries to it
<win8linux[m]>
Heard it might break FS filters, such as what OneDrive and some AV solutions use?
<waddlesplash>
there's no reason I know of NTFS couldn't do the same, so, probably there is some other answer as to why they don't do this kind of caching
<waddlesplash>
again, not if you just bypass disk I/O
<waddlesplash>
do literally everything else but the disk IO and access the cache instead
<waddlesplash>
however, they may already do exactly this
<waddlesplash>
in fact I would be very surprised if they didn't.
<waddlesplash>
or at the very least they probably put the IO cache pretty low
<win8linux[m]>
That was sort of the idea behind DirectStorage, but it doesn't actually do that on Windows.
<win8linux[m]>
Well, not exactly. It was part of the premise behind DirectStorage, though.
<win8linux[m]>
Only actually occurs on Xbox, though.
<waddlesplash>
trungnt2910[m]: another thing which may help is using a dedicated partition on your usb drive and passing it directly through to VMware
<waddlesplash>
i.e. let Haiku do raw disk IO
<waddlesplash>
all the way to the partition instead of the vmdk
<win8linux[m]>
Speaking of drive passthrough, does Haiku support that?
<waddlesplash>
also make sure your usb3 drive is actually connected to a usb3 port. and if applicable it's in UAS mode not usb-disk mode
<waddlesplash>
win8linux[m]: what do you mean?
<waddlesplash>
you can mount VMDKs as disk images on Haiku itself, if that's what you're asking (which is a pretty neat feature)
<win8linux[m]>
Was looking a f3 a couple days ago and its extra utilities are Linux-only:
<trungnt2910[m]>
don't know how to make @nightly-raw
<trungnt2910[m]>
```
<waddlesplash>
yes, harmless
<waddlesplash>
you get that message when building a target with a profile specified
<waddlesplash>
I've never figured out how to tell jam that profiles aren't targets
<waddlesplash>
win8linux[m]: not really, but you can use pkgman to downgrade to that state
<waddlesplash>
by just pkgman install path/to/state/*.hpkg
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<win8linux[m]>
But the state folder only has an activated-packages file?
<waddlesplash>
well, that's not usual
<waddlesplash>
that means the state was really uninstalling something
<waddlesplash>
check the state before it for the real packages
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<win8linux[m]>
Hmm, many of them only have a couple packages. None of which would be relevant to Quaternion crashing on the latest state.
<win8linux[m]>
The latest state does have a lot of updates for KDE, Qt, and libquotient (Quaternion's Matrix lib).
<win8linux[m]>
The last known good state seems to use the same libquotient version as the latest one, so that can be ruled out.
<win8linux[m]>
Really thought that was the cause, since the error on the latest state occurs right after attempting to fetch the room logos.
<win8linux[m]>
:\
<win8linux[m]>
Hmm, the crash might actually be in the updated Qt packages?
<waddlesplash>
most probable
<win8linux[m]>
But then reverting those would mean dealing with all of its associated packages and might break other Qt apps compiled against them. >_<
<waddlesplash>
Qt is supposed to be ABI compatible across major versions
<waddlesplash>
so it shouldn't cause an issue
<waddlesplash>
however, most likely the relevant changes are in the Haiku plugins, so you need to report an issue about this
<waddlesplash>
to Haikuports
<win8linux[m]>
Sure, will do that now. Would the crash report generated by Haiku be useful?
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<Begasus>
heading down, cu peeps!
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<nephele>
hi win8linux
<win8linux[m]>
hello
<win8linux[m]>
I'm not talking from Haiku right now, though.
<nephele>
What error did you get with quaternion?
<win8linux[m]>
No specific error really, it just crashes soon after trying to load room logos based on the terminal output.
<win8linux[m]>
More details are in the issue at HaikuPorts.
<nephele>
Yeah but... do you have the debug report?
<win8linux[m]>
Yes, it's linked in the issue.
<nephele>
Do you mind opening that issue on the quaternion bugtracker? :)
<nephele>
I can do it otherwise if you want
<nephele>
kitsune probably has some ideas what went wrong
<win8linux[m]>
Uh, it's not a problem with Quaternion or its library though (prolly).
<win8linux[m]>
> However upon checking the versions for that package on both the last known good state and the current bad state, they were the same.
<nephele>
Why? it segfaulted, that sounds like a bug to me. if it's in packaging i can just close the issue later *shrug*
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<nephele>
dun worry, i'm a 'profesional' github party member association team thingy... person... in the quotient team, hopefully i know what I'm doing :D
<win8linux[m]>
Oh, ok then.
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<win8linux[m]>
Was hesitant on filing an issue there, since Haiku doesn't look like an officially supported platform for Quaternion.
<win8linux[m]>
Only checked the GitHub project page.
<nephele>
Well, i think quaternion supports Haiku insofor that it is a cross platform product, and /I/ use Haiku... so :)
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<nephele>
I use a build from git so it uses qtkeychain, and it has slight bugfixes... it works for me anyhow
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<win8linux[m]>
Wait, is there anything in the Quaternion terminal output that I should redact for the issue?
<nephele>
I dunno, maybe? I don't think it ever posts your access token. but it likely shows what media you requested (which in matrix is completely unauthed, lol) and the avatars for which users etc
<nephele>
no, just ment your s/ line :) it's the syntax from the "sed" command from unix that gained popularity in irc aswell
<nephele>
but not everyone who uses it in irc or matrix is aware really of how it works in sed... or say what other stuff there is for it
<phschafft>
(I would more refer to POSIX regex and Perl regex, as that are the formal names for the two main dialects. also not sure who invented it. but today it is part of like every editor and every programming langauge and every... so it makes sense it becomes used outside that scope as well.)
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<nephele>
Yeah, Posix regex is also a good name (though that is derived from sed in unix then, also :)
<nephele>
wikipedia atleast sais sed has influenced perl, but then i wouldn't trust wikipedia on anything related to IT
<phschafft>
I think the big thing POSIX did was exactly what POSIX is all about: make it a well defined standard.
<nephele>
yep
<phschafft>
perldoc has some history information on the discussions between sed and perl developers and how and why the syntax is different.
<phschafft>
and from what I remember what is written there clearly supports the claim that Perl tried to use sed as a starting point and improve on that.
<phschafft>
... given that as always 'improve' has objective AND subjective aspects.
<win8linux[m]>
Don't really use regex much outside of a terminal, even when it's available.
<win8linux[m]>
Though it seems to be spreading quite a fair bit beyond IRC among chat clients.
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<nephele>
Seeing as I don't know the perl regex syntax I don't have much of an opinion... though I do have a perl 6 book, before they realized that convinvg people that it's not perl, really, while calling it "perl 6" is quite difficult :)
<win8linux[m]>
Matrix and Discord both have it now, although many users of the latter think it's an Easter eggs of sorts.
<win8linux[m]>
heh
<nephele>
maybe some matrix clients do, i dunno. Matrix itself only has "edits" which is "let me resend my message again completely, while referencing a complete copy of the previous message"...
<nephele>
though they mostly got rid of the latter part... mostl
<nephele>
I'll read the perldoc history stuff later, sounds interesting
<nephele>
(honestly just delighted the greatest game, The Powder Toy works on Haiku :3)
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<win8linux[m]>
Who needs anything else? :D
<win8linux[m]>
Computers can even be built in it, after all.
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<nephele>
indeed
<phschafft>
if you can build a computer inside a game, can you run that game inside itself?
<nephele>
It's a "falling sand" game, but the size is limited, i don't think you can build RAM in the game that would be big enough to hold the game world itself :)
<phschafft>
in minetest you are limited by the fact that time only passes around the player.
<nephele>
oh, you can easily bypass that
<phschafft>
so you will have kind of relativistic effects.
<phschafft>
hm?
<nephele>
I have to bypass this in my minetest gamemode too, because stuff like quarries or so would then stop digging if you went too far into the quarry hole
<nephele>
you can forceload chunks from the lua api side
<phschafft>
I mean you can set the view range high. and you can force load chunks.
<phschafft>
:)
<phschafft>
I sometimes wish I could force unload chunks. when playing in bigger worlds it sometimes has performance problems for me.
<nephele>
(gotta say though, in some cases it's quite annoying to write a game for minetest, even though it sais it's an engine some places it really is quite limited .-.)
<phschafft>
like when you are in infinity view range mode and there are more than 2k blocks of world loaded in your viewing direction.
<nephele>
Like the damn formspecs, the "size" and the positions were not operating at the same coordinate scale, only after some long time that got fixed...
<phschafft>
;)
<nephele>
Wouldn't it work then to disable unlimited view range?
<phschafft>
formspecs is something which I haven't needed too much yet, and happy about that. ;)
<phschafft>
nephele: sure. but then you are back to very limited range.
<nephele>
I animated my formspecs :) so you can see cooking progress in furncaes and stuff
<phschafft>
...
<phschafft>
I see. ;)
<nephele>
(just uhhh, this is really terrible for nw performance because you stream the animation for every damn loaded block (that has an inventory)... and you can't simply show the relevant player the formspec, because the only way to do this is to force open a formspec to the player... which uhm... is a race condition with the player closing it...)
<nephele>
minetest has many of these annoying api deficiencies :/, kind of a lack of "generic" interfaces in some cases
<nephele>
I would like to do more of my minetest stuff on haiku though, but it just runs terribly now :/
<phschafft>
It feels like there is room for many more years of development. but that also means that it got some foundation to build on.
<nephele>
(unless you use burningvideo, but that is removed in recent versions so...)
<nephele>
Yeah, it certainly got some merrit, otherwise i probably would have stopped long ago with developing my gamemode for it :P
<phschafft>
:)
<win8linux[m]>
Can only hope that the recent uproar in the *Minecraft* community about global chat reports will bring some attention to *Minetest*.
<win8linux[m]>
* Can only hope that the recent uproar in the Minecraft community about global chat reports will bring some attention to Minetest.
<phschafft>
hm.
<nephele>
I considered buying minecraft for quite some time, i especially enjoyed the minecraft pocket edition demo for android... minetest isn't really the same game as that though :P. Ultimately decided against it because they now require a microsoft account for it and i just don't have any nor do i want one
<phschafft>
it started more or less as a clone. but as in every good clone related move it found it's own soul. ;)
<win8linux[m]>
That migration of accounts was in hindsight, really meant for implementing more MS oversight over MC players.
<nephele>
(And honestly, some of the stuff I really enjoyed about minecraft like technology mods minetest just didn't have... or if they did it was really complex and hard for me to understand :/... Well, that is why i made my own but still, mine isn't finished either yet)
<win8linux[m]>
Doesn't MineClone gets quite close to turning Minetest into Minecraft?
<win8linux[m]>
s/gets/get/
<win8linux[m]>
At least, that's what I've heard lately.
<phschafft>
a friend of mine is on the minecraft side and does some very strange things over there. and for some time I was wondering about writing a mod that allows us to play together.
<nephele>
Eh. in some parts, i guess. But what is the point of that?
<phschafft>
meaning a mod that connects a minetest and a minecraft world.
<phschafft>
not as in you can go there. but on a exchange level.
<nephele>
The really interesting parts about minecraft to me was really the mods and such. not the core game loop
<win8linux[m]>
True
<win8linux[m]>
Mods, shaders, resource packs
<nephele>
(I'm still silently hoping someone else will help on orion at some point heh. who knows. I guess not unless I upload it to github... isn't that ironic)
<win8linux[m]>
Embrace, extend, ...
<win8linux[m]>
:P
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<extrowerk>
waddlesplash: maybe you heard it plenty times, but since the switch to the openbsd wlan drivers my laptop doesnt tries to automatically connect to my ap.
<waddlesplash>
yeah, not really unexpected, but it never worked reliably for me with the old drivers too
<waddlesplash>
there's tickets open about it. autojoin functionality really needs a major overhaul.
<nephele>
Not connecting to an AP on boot is an old bug, it happens to some, not to others
<nephele>
(and for me for example, spuriously yes for some networks no for others.)
<nephele>
extrowerk: i use nixes
<nephele>
FreeBSD is my mail server, it works very well for this
<extrowerk>
nephele: too bad, you are compromitted then.
<win8linux[m]>
Isn't Haiku a *nix-like?
<nephele>
I don't know that word extrowerk
<extrowerk>
you used to learn about, you know that scene, you think along its rules and bordering lines, eg. thinking outside of the box is not possible anymore for you.
<extrowerk>
or it is way too hard.
<nephele>
I think you are a bit ideologically poisioned on that front
<extrowerk>
ideologies comes and goes, *nix won't stay, the earlier it goes the better.
<win8linux[m]>
Most OS research these days happens in Linux or more generally, *nix-likes (which I'm told Haiku is one of).
<PulkoMandy>
extrowerk, we really don't have anything better for servers so far
<nephele>
It's really wierd to say "nix is bad, everything that comes out of it is bad", when really that isn't true
<extrowerk>
win8linux[m]: maybe Haiku uses its nix-like personality only to stay relevant since BeOS did the same.
<PulkoMandy>
I'd say it's fine if it stays there. It's nice that not all technologies are in perpetual revolution and we never make any progress because we can't build a stable ground
<nephele>
opensolaris was a real honeypot of inovation for server technology
<nephele>
and FreeBSD adopted a lot of really good ideas from it
<PulkoMandy>
unix only has to admit to its limits and that it doesn't make a great desktop/end-user system for the modern world on its own
<win8linux[m]>
PulkoMandy: Some of the BSD folks would argue otherwise. :D
<extrowerk>
PulkoMandy: servers can stay whit whatever os they uses, i don't really care about servers.
<nephele>
why are you bothered then about me using FreeBSD for a mail server....?
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<win8linux[m]>
IMO there's room for both Linux and Haiku on the desktop.
<nephele>
win8linux: I doubt it, the "on its own" part is quite relevant, none of the BSD's have any sort of "own" desktop enviroments, at all (there was lumina, but then that got to linux aswell and shifted focus), openBSD is the only one to have a graphical interface in it's own sourcetree also
<extrowerk>
nephele: good point! you usiing *nixes therefore your view is influenced. Th worst ting in *nixes that it infects everything and you can't unthink it.
<nephele>
Better delete all the wifi drivers then...
<win8linux[m]>
Haiku is the more complete package for OSS desktop that works for most people (drivers aside).
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<nephele>
win8linux: while I don't mind if linux wants to be on the desktop personally it has really let me down quite a lot, and maintenance is just super hard on it. I am happy when I don't have to use it and can use Haiku, and recently more and more and more stuff starts to just work on Haiku, gets ported etc. I'm really happy about that
<nephele>
maybe for beta5 or something I can recomend it wholeheartedly to my not-so-tech-enthusiastic friends
<win8linux[m]>
Linux meanwhile is an OSS desktop platform of freedom and experimentation for the very technical users who have specific needs.
<win8linux[m]>
nephele: Honestly, the same. Haiku has increasingly become my place of zen, where I can relax and focus on other things.
<win8linux[m]>
I've grown disillusioned by the DE/WM fights, display server chaos, and other problems with the Linux desktop.
<PulkoMandy>
it's been a while since I've seen something really interesting in terms of ui/ux coming from the linux world
<nephele>
I feel the upgrading of toolkits all the time on linux is just a perpetual cycle of torment at this point
<win8linux[m]>
Groups trying to make it into a vertically integrated desktop while steamrolling other projects in the process, when that just won't happen in an OS inherently composed of components from different developers.
<nephele>
Like now there is qt6 instead of qt5 instead of qt4 with having to "port" apps every time, many apps never getting ported and some getting ported and becoming worse for it...
<win8linux[m]>
GTK4 breaking all sorts of things, to the point where it has caused some projects to switch toolkits entirely.
<x512[m]>
win8linux: You can use Neochat instead of Quaternion.
<nephele>
Hmm, i still want to make a driver to let me use my wacom tablets touch input to rotate the canvas in Wonderbrush at some point
<win8linux[m]>
x512[m]: Thanks, didn't realise that it's in HaikuDepot now.
<nephele>
There was a video about multitouch cursors on youtube that was really really cool for UI stuff, I am quite sad no UI really implemented that
<PulkoMandy>
(that was from 2007 or so, early work on compositing and using opengl for accelerating rendering, but more interesting is what they had built above it)
<nephele>
wayland also does this but then most clients there /also/ dont expect this... making it quite hard to have a second pointer with the wacom tablet
<nephele>
I see there is much more hda debug info in syslog now, is that to open tickets with? :D
<nephele>
for some specific applications these cursors would be really great
<nephele>
PulkoMandy: funny, atleast one thing demod in your video, that is scrolling on the scrollbar but dragging down so it does it more slowly is actually used in iOS nowadays :) (just that you have to drag up to select the dragging speed instead)
<PulkoMandy>
yes, not all things went lost fortunately :)
<PulkoMandy>
but they did not get integrated to Linux which is where this tech demo originally ran
<PulkoMandy>
things worked out better (eventually) for the things HAiku got from the Aukland university research (Stack and Tile and the Aukland Layout Model)
<PulkoMandy>
we didn't merge all of their experiments either, still
<win8linux[m]>
What hasn't been merged yet?
<PulkoMandy>
they also had a prototype for live editable GUIs as well as automatically generating documentation based on hey, I think
<PulkoMandy>
I don't know if it was conclusive and if they ever published the code
<extrowerk>
they argue most of the time that linux is a kernel. I am not sure if it is flexible enough to do all of this at all.
<PulkoMandy>
but they did conduct some user testing during one BeGeistert
<extrowerk>
planing to do an lfs / buildroot to test it.
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<extrowerk>
my main interest is: what happens if somebody doesn't follows lfs at all. I conclude it is deprecated and should be completely reworked. I want to see what hapens f linus is rreally used only as a kernel and nothing else.
<win8linux[m]>
The only remotely interesting UI work on Linux are those centred around Arcan:
<extrowerk>
there is many people who think haiku should switch to *nix kernel, but they never provide any bootable image. So maybe their kernel isn't that flexible at all. Who knows? The people who attempts to build a non-*nix system.
<extrowerk>
if thats actually and phylosophycally possible at all.
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<win8linux[m]>
Haven't seen this one before, but a brief skim already seems to show a lot of rather intriguing ideas on OS design:
<win8linux[m]>
> Arcan is a single-user, user-facing, networked overlay operating system.
<nephele>
extrowerk: that makes no sense
<nephele>
if you boot linux without a userland it will immidiently call panic() and freeze
<win8linux[m]>
Could've sworn someone managed to pack a Python interpreter into the kernel or initrd or something.
<extrowerk>
nephele: i meant to build a non-lsb system, you are misunderstood me.
<win8linux[m]>
* into the Linux kernel or
<x512[m]>
nephele: Haiku kernel can run without starting any userland processes. Or start multiple userland processes.
<nephele>
extrowerk: lsb...? you mean linux standard base?
<extrowerk>
yep
<nephele>
extrowerk: yeah uhm, hate to break it to you but basically none of the linux distros even follow that
<nephele>
so you are kind of late to the party
<nephele>
x512: what's the point of that? the kernel is useless without a userland
<x512[m]>
In theory you can run an OS only with kernel modules.
<extrowerk>
Good to know, i hope they will drop nixisms then in the "near" future.
<nephele>
lsb has nothing to do with "nixism"
<win8linux[m]>
…
<x512[m]>
Haiku basically have no init process concept.
<win8linux[m]>
That term seems rather nebulous, innit?
<nephele>
lsb is a corporate invention of "wow it would be really cool if we shove this into linux distros" with no regard to whether linux distros want it or not
<win8linux[m]>
"NIXism"
<nephele>
for example the lsb just plainly states that rpm is the linux package file format, and thats it
<nephele>
so, if debian wants to be "lsb compliant" they have to somehow support rpm and stuff
<x512[m]>
LSB also mentioned GTK and Qt.
<nephele>
x512: yes, that concept is called a rump kernel i think, or monokernel. but it's not what we do with haiku
<win8linux[m]>
nephele: They did that in a roundabout way with `alien`.
<win8linux[m]>
😂
<x512[m]>
There are RPM support for Debian.
<nephele>
win8linux: yes, but unsuprisingly they did not want to maintain it and neither did anyone care about it, especially because debian is a lot bigger :P, they basically removed all pretenses to support lsb from their normal installs
<nephele>
probably the support still exists, like the support for debian/kFreeBSD still exists "somewhere"
<win8linux[m]>
The most useful part of LSB is `lsb_release`, that's it these days really.
<extrowerk>
See, this is the *nixism what i would like to see deprecated. You people argue about theories from the '70s . It is over. Get over it. You don't have a mainframe. Stop being wannabe amins.
<nephele>
kind of replaced with /etc/os-release no?
<nephele>
what are you talking about extrowerk?
<extrowerk>
about your concepts.
<nephele>
the linux standard base is from 2001
<nephele>
it has nothing to do with the 70s
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<extrowerk>
definetely.
<extrowerk>
and i am a pink rhinoceros.
<nephele>
well, i guess that isn't the least ridicilous claim you made this evening
<nephele>
honestly, i don't understand what is up with your unconditional hatred for this, sure "here at Haiku" we are quite opnionated about how a desktop should look... but that doesn't really mean we are "better" than anybody else
<extrowerk>
I am always up to discuss about it.
<win8linux[m]>
nephele: Kind of yes, but that's not really intended for users.
<win8linux[m]>
`lsb_release` is formatted more appropriately for direct user interaction.
<nephele>
commandline tools are not really ment for users either
<win8linux[m]>
As if anyone cares anymore really, when `neofetch` exists. :D
<extrowerk>
nephele: i never said better, i said newer. You don't really understands me, the reason for that could be the predeterminism you received through learning about computing.
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<win8linux[m]>
Only other prominent OS model these days is the NT model, which is a descendant of the VMS model.
<nephele>
No, the reason that I don't understand you is because you don't explain anything about your motivations. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with computing as such. Why does newer matter? if that is the case maybe fuchsia is the better option for you? they don't have all the legacy BeOS cruft we carry around
<x512[m]>
NT kernel is very complex and overengineered, many of its features are not used.
<win8linux[m]>
The Nintendo Switch's Horizon OS is notably not a *nix-like and somewhat unusually for a microkernel OS, is able is achieve high-performance graphics well.
<nephele>
I don't see how that is unusual really
<win8linux[m]>
That has an interesting OS model too, but unfortunately it is not documented well by Nintendo.
<nephele>
most of gpu programming is "put this stuff into a command que and let the gpu do it"
<nephele>
if you have a shared RAM segment you can even avoid lots of copying data
<x512[m]>
Nvidia GPU even allow to send command buffers only with userland and without any syscalls.
<win8linux[m]>
An old criticism of microkernels is that they're unable or at least harder to achieve high-performance graphics with due to needing more context switching than other kernel types.
<win8linux[m]>
Something about the drivers being in user-space or whatever.
<extrowerk>
nephele: pretty easy, i would like to replace every nixism with qnx. end of story.
<nephele>
I've seen such claims, also that "the performance is bad because message passing". What I didn't really see is evidence for that. Most of computing is about message passing already :) even if you don't do microkernel
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<win8linux[m]>
Frankly, it was the Hurd which ruined the perception of microkernels until the last decade or so.
<nephele>
I still like minix3
<extrowerk>
nephele: then why not switch to microkernel entirely?
<nephele>
extrowerk: microkernel and monolithic kernel are mainly marketing terms, most OS lie somewhere in the middle
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<win8linux[m]>
Haiku's kernel is considered a hybrid on Wikipedia.
<nephele>
I don't think we should make technical decisions on a stanpoint of "purity". If we can move stuff to userspace to increase reliability we should definitly do that
<nephele>
for example the networked file systems talked about yesterday
<win8linux[m]>
I've seen conflicting statements on what kind of kernel Haiku has.
<nephele>
probably because only the haiku devs really know?
<nephele>
I wouldn't trust wikipedia on tech stuff anyways, they are often wrong :/
<extrowerk>
nephele: then why not to switch to microkernel entirely?
<nephele>
I already answered you above
<win8linux[m]>
nephele: One of them said monolithic to me a while back, so it still seems contested even among the devs possibly.
<nephele>
win8linux: it's more that it doesn't really matter honestly
<nephele>
wikipedia sais our next two releases are beta4 and beta4.1 uhhh
<win8linux[m]>
That can be changed, but will prolly get reverted if we essentially say:
<win8linux[m]>
> Source: Dude trust me
<nephele>
German wikipedia plainly states that haiku has 3d acceleration since 2017 in like the fifth paragraph
<win8linux[m]>
:P
<nephele>
which uhh... isn't true, like at all
<win8linux[m]>
Yeah, that happened this year!
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<win8linux[m]>
:D
<nephele>
like, i'm looking forward once x512s work is polished enough to be reviewed and merged but like, there wasn't any usable 3d accel in 2017
<nephele>
german wikipedia sais the amd64 version is trying to be source compatible to beos sourcecode...?
<nephele>
(for apps and such?)
<win8linux[m]>
LOLOLOLOL
<win8linux[m]>
Maybe someday, hehe.
<nephele>
I'm just confused how would we be source compatible to code build for another architecture with a compiler (gcc2) that we don't maintain for this architecture...
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<win8linux[m]>
Just recompile it bruh, that's how it works on Linux.
<win8linux[m]>
:P
<n0toose>
evening!
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<extrowerk>
nephele: haiku had 3d accelereation since a decade or so. You are painting an alternative picture in your head. This is allowed but not entirely true.
<nephele>
3d acceleration is not the same as providing the opengl api
<extrowerk>
so hw accel is not hw accel.
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<nephele>
useable 3d acceleration implies beeing able to use it on common hardware, not trying to build an ancinet computer with agp cards for a nvidia gpu :P
<win8linux[m]>
Maybe GPU **hardware** 3D acceleration would be clearer.
<extrowerk>
so hw accel is not hw accel because
<nephele>
funnily enough i have one of those nvidia gpu, but no agp board
<nephele>
win8linux: the acceleration part already implies hardware
<extrowerk>
goalpost moving is strong here.
<win8linux[m]>
nephele: Just making it extra clear, just in case. :)
<nephele>
extrowerk: maybe you should take a break if everything pisses you off today? you quite clearly understood what i ment. and i'm not in the mood to debate technicalities of "theoretically you could" when even if you used such an ancient card it wouldn't be usefull with modern opengl software
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<extrowerk>
nephele: goalpost moving.
<n0toose>
out of curiosity [as i've been out of the loop for a boot out of my current inability to properly emulate the operating system], does haiku have any thoughts about reacting to the recent "let's all move out of github!" thing freenode style?
<nephele>
extrowerk: yeah no. you are the only one moving goalposts
<n0toose>
... i probably decided to ask that at a very wrong time, apologies ^^
<nephele>
n0toose: don't think so, really
<win8linux[m]>
nephele: Theoretically I could run glxgears in 30-60 FPS on an AGP card, so yeah. :P
<win8linux[m]>
Just one window, though. :D
<nephele>
for example gerrit still can't be used without a github account, that might be a dependency that could be removed
<extrowerk>
nephele: i would greatly appreciate if you could show me where did i move my goalposts.
<win8linux[m]>
n0toose: Why can't you use Haiku right now?
<nephele>
extrowerk: by trying to move the 3d acceleration goal we were talking about back to the technically working on some ancient computers
<nephele>
I am fairly sure you knew that nobody was talking about aht
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<extrowerk>
nephele: BeOS (and Haiku) had hw OGL acceleration on selceted hw confgurations. Now you are telling me i am wrong because i say "selected"? Or that i should know "acceleration" in this case doesn't means what you think it means? And that i am moving goalposts? Nope.
<nephele>
BeOS isn't haiku
<extrowerk>
indifferent in this question.
<nephele>
No it isn't
<nephele>
You already know we only have 3d hardware acceleration on hardware configurations nobody has
<extrowerk>
It is, as the same developer provided the driver for both OS.
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<nephele>
claiming that we, in general, have 3d hardware acceleration is dishonest and misleading
<extrowerk>
I never claimed it, you are the one i claimed something i never did
<nephele>
>nephele: haiku had 3d accelereation since a decade or so. You are painting an alternative picture in your head. This is allowed but not entirely true.
<extrowerk>
*you are te one who said i claimed something i never did
<extrowerk>
show me i was wrong, please.
<nephele>
that is literally a quote from you i just copied
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<extrowerk>
i don't see your answer. So you are saying Haiku did not have 3d? It have since long, irecall to see a commit about enabling ogl. it was around 2002 or 3. Or do you mentioning 3d acceleration? it was in the same time with mesa 7. Or do you meant hw 3d accel? which was around the same time with nv drivers from Rudolp Cornelissen? Or do you ment the "your kind of 3d acceleration which haiku doesn't have but i meant it have"? Yes, sorry,
<extrowerk>
Haiku really doesn't have that. Maybe one day! ....... Really do we need to do this kind of discussion? Don't you feel bad about this?
<nephele>
"3d acceleration" is the same as 3d hw accel
<nephele>
No, I don't. Because I only said that the german wikipedia claimed something that is untrue, that beeing that 3d acceleration was added in 2017 to haiku
<extrowerk>
but it was 2007, so they are wrong.
<nephele>
I don't understand why you felt the need to go on a tangent about that, the wikipedia entry is clearly wrong, no matter which definition you pick
<extrowerk>
then modify it
<nephele>
No, I don't care
<extrowerk>
Then why do we doing fights here about your imagination?
<nephele>
Because you apparently have nothing better to do then pick fights about literally nothing
<extrowerk>
can we return to important things?
<nephele>
Depends, are you done with your tangents?
<extrowerk>
idk, probably not. you will see.
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<extrowerk>
so nephele: what do you think about qnx, do you have any first hand experience with it or did you had any previous exposure to it?
<x512[m]>
QNX is closed source, so not helpful for Haiku.
<extrowerk>
x512[m]: it is , currently ,but it was not always so.
<x512[m]>
Really? Isn't QNX always closed source from beginning?
<extrowerk>
nope, it was "sources available but not open source" for a period of time before BlackBerry bought it. BB closed the sources completely however.
<extrowerk>
you can still find the qnx kernel sources aound the web if you look hard enough for them.
<extrowerk>
but i have to go to sleep now.
<extrowerk>
good night.
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<Vidrep_64>
Which Ralink chips are currently supported by haiku?
<Vidrep_64>
I popped open my non-working D-Link USB Wifi and it has a RT2571WF chip