ChanServ changed the topic of #aarch64-laptops to: Linux support for AArch64 Laptops (Chrome OS Trogdor Devices - Asus NovaGo TP370QL - HP Envy x2 - Lenovo Mixx 630 - Lenovo Yoga C630 - Lenovo ThinkPad X13s - and various other snapdragon laptops) - https://oftc.irclog.whitequark.org/aarch64-laptops
chrisl has joined #aarch64-laptops
KhazAkar has quit [Server closed connection]
KhazAkar has joined #aarch64-laptops
chrisl has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
jbowen has quit [Server closed connection]
jbowen has joined #aarch64-laptops
sboyd has quit [Server closed connection]
sboyd has joined #aarch64-laptops
chrisl has joined #aarch64-laptops
chrisl has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
CosmicPenguin has quit [Server closed connection]
CosmicPenguin has joined #aarch64-laptops
_alice has quit [Server closed connection]
_alice has joined #aarch64-laptops
dianders has quit [Server closed connection]
dianders has joined #aarch64-laptops
alx___ has quit [Server closed connection]
alx___ has joined #aarch64-laptops
chrisl has joined #aarch64-laptops
BrainWart has quit [Server closed connection]
BrainWart has joined #aarch64-laptops
chrisl has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
jbowen has quit []
jbowen has joined #aarch64-laptops
chrisl has joined #aarch64-laptops
chrisl has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
tobhe_ has joined #aarch64-laptops
tobhe has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
ungeskriptet_ has joined #aarch64-laptops
ungeskriptet has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
<dgilmore>
robclark: could we extract the firmware from downloads directly from the vendor rather than from a windows install?
<robclark>
umm, maybe? Idk how all that works out but would be worth someone figuring out
<robclark>
iirc t14s is the easy case, since lenovo posted fw for us upstream? It is everything else that is the problem
<dgilmore>
okay. someone would have to figure out the right file to get and extract from
<robclark>
iirc there are some fw extract scripts floating around
<robclark>
assuming you have a win partition to extract fw from
<albsen[m]>
[@powpingdone:matrix.org](https://matrix.to/#/@powpingdone:matrix.org) the 5ghz crash is a known bug for a while ath I'm looking forward to that fix that [@_oftc_anthony25:matrix.org](https://matrix.to/#/@_oftc_anthony25:matrix.org) mentioned. Depending on the version of T14s you're using there are more workarounds needed as well. And the ath bug isn't the only way to crash / force reboot the device at the moment; at least in my
<albsen[m]>
testing.
<dgilmore>
first thing i did was pull the windows drive and put in a new one for linux. ideally I would rather figure out what updates I can pull the files from
<dgilmore>
I have been using primarily 5ghz and 6ghz wifi on the t14s
sskras has quit [Server closed connection]
<robclark>
maybe someone has figured that out... tbh maybe someone should just publish a fw tree for $all_the_random_laptops.. ianal so don't know the legality of that but I guess the fw is all the same modulo the signing
sskras has joined #aarch64-laptops
pundir has quit [Server closed connection]
hexdump0815 has joined #aarch64-laptops
pundir has joined #aarch64-laptops
hexdump01 has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
<dgilmore>
ls /usr/lib/firmware/qcom/x1e80100/LENOVO/21N1/
<JensGlathe[m]>
Oh, working firmware update for the Thinkbook 16
khilman has quit [Server closed connection]
khilman has joined #aarch64-laptops
hexdump0815 has quit [Quit: WeeChat 3.8]
hexdump0815 has joined #aarch64-laptops
hexdump0815 has quit []
hexdump0815 has joined #aarch64-laptops
jhovold has joined #aarch64-laptops
chrisl has joined #aarch64-laptops
chrisl has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
unsaidMoonshine has joined #aarch64-laptops
srinik has joined #aarch64-laptops
chrisl has joined #aarch64-laptops
unsaidMoonshine has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
unsaidMoonshine has joined #aarch64-laptops
chrisl has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
kalebris has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
crabbedhaloablution has quit []
crabbedhaloablut has joined #aarch64-laptops
lucanis has quit [Server closed connection]
unsaidMoonshine has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
unsaidMoonshine has joined #aarch64-laptops
chrisl has joined #aarch64-laptops
chrisl has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
fantom has quit [Server closed connection]
fantom has joined #aarch64-laptops
laine__ has quit [Server closed connection]
laine__ has joined #aarch64-laptops
unsaidMoonshine has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
kalebris has joined #aarch64-laptops
<anthony25>
dgilmore: we'll be able to do that if manufacturers authorize qcomm signed firmwares
<anthony25>
Which is why I saw windows users happy that the slim 7x will have soon a bios update that can load qcomm signed files, because the qcomm drivers are up-to-date compared to the ones lenovo has provided (which are lagging behind, mostly on the GPU side)
<anthony25>
Otherwise it depends if the manufacturers make available their drivers or if it's just shipped through windows update (again, like the slim 7x)
<SpieringsAE>
Wonder how first party linux support from a vendor is going to look like
<SpieringsAE>
the gpu, usb-a and fingerprint reader not working is surprising to me
<SpieringsAE>
I think those should all be well established by now
chrisl has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
<anthony25>
Oh nice!
<Jasper[m]>
<SpieringsAE> "it seems the tuxedo x elite..." <- Ohhh very cool
<Jasper[m]>
@SpieringsAE I'm going to assume there are some non-standard things going on depending on where they source the panel, usb controller and fprint from and how they hookit up
<Jasper[m]>
I'm kind of assuming "output" with the GPU thing is just the display itself
proycon has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
proycon has joined #aarch64-laptops
Eirik has joined #aarch64-laptops
Eirik has quit []
eirikkar has joined #aarch64-laptops
Guest10774 has quit []
changwoo_ has joined #aarch64-laptops
changwoo_ has quit []
changwoo_ has joined #aarch64-laptops
eirikkar has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<SpieringsAE>
I am curious about the specs/io
<SpieringsAE>
it seems they are using one of the higher binned x elite chips
<krzk>
I wonder if this time Tuxedo also is going to ship code GPLv3, to be sure upstream process is blocked...
<SpieringsAE>
yep lol
<tobhe_>
at least the dtb is BSD3
<tobhe_>
though I wonder if dtbs can actually fall under copyright
unsaidMoonshine has joined #aarch64-laptops
<krzk>
just like ELF or EXE
<travmurav[m]>
I'd argue more like a copyrighted PDF even since dt is just input data xD
<travmurav[m]>
one could argue whether the "artwork" of names etc in the dt is copyrightable at all but I hold an opinion that dtb license is inconsequential to it's user (at least as long as they don't compile dts into C/asm I guess)
<tobhe_>
I was thinking more like headers which do not fall under copyright (according to fsf and google vs oracle)
<krzk>
headers are not part of DTB
<tobhe_>
i know, I'm saying the intellectual value or creative input that goes into dts resembles headers more than code :)
<bamse>
elf, exe, and pdfs are quite likely to capture the expression of an idea
<krzk>
DTB is the output of DTS, so if we assume that DTS is copyrightable (otherwise we all waste time on doing something which machines should do) then its output has the same relation to source as EXE to C
<bamse>
under the defines of the bindings, the expression in the dtb would pretty much equal the idea...
<bamse>
or rather, there's very little room for expression
<tobhe_>
krzk: right, I am actually questioning whether dts can be copyrighted
<travmurav[m]>
&{/chosen} { oem,novel= "Once upon a time /s
<krzk>
so if you question that then it would mean significant part of our work is not copyrightable so what are we getting paid of? if someone decided to pay us nice money for writing DTS, it means something? But regardless, it is copyrightable because writing DTS is actual creative work of figuring out how to describe wires and systems in abstract language
<krzk>
IOW, DTS is not autogenerated from anything in our case.
<bamse>
krzk: those two aren't necessarily related
<krzk>
The DTS whihc would be auto-generated from tools / Altium / whatever, would not be copyrightablke, just like generated C from something is not
<bamse>
krzk: it would still be valuable to our employeers even if it was released under public domain
<krzk>
bamse: public domain does not mean something is not copyrightable
<krzk>
bamse: and it is related, because it is a proof that task is not trivial, requires specifi cskills of creative mind, which is then well paid for
<javierm>
krzk: that's the legal definition of public domain though, creative material that are not protected by intellectual property laws
<bamse>
javierm: yes, but krzk is right in that the work would still meet the bar for being copyrightable
<krzk>
one requirement of copyrightable is that work must contain creativity, which is what we do, otherwise machines would do it
<javierm>
bamse: ah, I see. yeah, that's correct
<krzk>
or the work was so trivial any monkey would do it etc. (although even trivial work might be deemed copyrightable)
<javierm>
krzk: the question AFAIU is if given the constraints of the DT bindings, if there are multiple ways to describe a given HW platform using a DTS
<javierm>
there could be room to duplicate in dts vs having a shared .dtsi but there isn't that much room for innovation when writing DTS
<javierm>
the DT bindings though are different
<krzk>
javierm: yep, so we could write bindings that way that you generate DTS out of them. But we do not and you can vreate DTS in multiple ways.
<tobhe_>
my line of thinking was: could there be a system that uses header files to define everything we define in dtbs? and I guess there could
unsaidMoonshine has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<javierm>
krzk: yeah, I guess is a question for a judge to determine whether are really multiple ways to describe a DTS or not. As I see it, there's a single correct way to describe it for a given HW
<travmurav[m]>
but would that system understand and describe a very specific nuance that since gpio X connected to line Y for completely unrelated reason, we could do something wonderful with it that noone thought about before, and write a long comment that it's a hack but we did something fun?
<krzk>
javierm: I think you assume that bindings are fixed, right? So you have a defined bindings and then how to write DTS?
<javierm>
krzk: yeah, assuming that you only use existing bindings
<javierm>
adding new bindings if of course a creative process and subject to copyright (IMO)
unsaidMoonshine has joined #aarch64-laptops
<javierm>
I also think that DTS is a creative material that could be copyrightable but I understand that others might think that is not and should be something for a judge to have a say
<bamse>
in that world though, schematics and datasheets are copyrightable, so the translation of that into dts would be as well
<javierm>
bamse: oh, indeed
<krzk>
schematics are design, aren't they?
<travmurav[m]>
until you have cute drawings in them, then they become artwork xD
<javierm>
krzk: yeah, a DTS could be thought to be just another abstract language to describe a HW design and so be copyrightable
<javierm>
since as bamse said one can copyright a schematics
<javierm>
but is an interesting thought experiment
<krzk>
I think you can copyright schematics if someone creates them, so designs something and effect is the schematic. If you create some design and then just generate schematics based on that, are they copyrightable?
<krzk>
Let say you describe hardware in DTS and you generate schematics from that DTS with computer program - are such schematics creative work or just transformation of data?
<javierm>
krzk: you are reaching my law knowledge limits with that one :)
<travmurav[m]>
by that logic compiling latex into pdf is transformation of data too, I guess it's an interesting question where the line actually is
unsaidMoonshine has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<krzk>
Copyrightable material must have originality, thus if machine creates it autonomously this is not copyrightable. Therefore schematics per se might not be copyrightable if they are autogenerated. Schematics which you write/design are.
<SpieringsAE>
I did look this up at some point about schematics but from what I could find pcb design was not copyrightable
unsaidMoonshine has joined #aarch64-laptops
<SpieringsAE>
I was wondering what license to use for my pcb design
<SpieringsAE>
but I could be wrong
<javierm>
krzk: but that's similar to what I tried to say basically, that if you take a (copyrighted by company A) schematics and (manually) write a DTS based on the design, if is copyrightable by company B
chrisl has joined #aarch64-laptops
<javierm>
since the author of the DTS doesn't have that much room for creativity/originality
<krzk>
travmurav[m]: yeah, transformation of copyrightable work is copyrightable
<SpieringsAE>
actually may be wrong now that I'm checking again
<javierm>
krzk: like taking a book and writing a script for a movie
<krzk>
US law says: "A "derivative work" is ... or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted." :)
<travmurav[m]>
I wonder if fair use applies
chrisl has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
unsaidMoonshine has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
unsaidMoonshine has joined #aarch64-laptops
<anthony25>
the ARM laptops space is also way less packed than x86_64, so they might not feel the need to play with copyrights for the competition
<anthony25>
mostly if we're talking about ARM laptops with performance comparable to x86 laptops, officially supported for Linux
chrisl has joined #aarch64-laptops
chrisl has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
SpieringsAE has quit [Quit: SpieringsAE]
unsaidMoonshine has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
unsaidMoonshine has joined #aarch64-laptops
unsaidMoonshine has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
unsaidMoonshine has joined #aarch64-laptops
green has joined #aarch64-laptops
green has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
chrisl has joined #aarch64-laptops
chrisl has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
textmode has joined #aarch64-laptops
chrisl has joined #aarch64-laptops
jhovold has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
chrisl has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
chrisl has joined #aarch64-laptops
unsaidMoonshine has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
chrisl has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
green has joined #aarch64-laptops
green has quit []
green has joined #aarch64-laptops
green has quit []
unsaidMoonshine has joined #aarch64-laptops
chrisl has joined #aarch64-laptops
unsaidMoonshine has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
chrisl has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
unsaidMoonshine has joined #aarch64-laptops
srinik has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
chrisl has joined #aarch64-laptops
unsaidMoonshine has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
unsaidMoonshine has joined #aarch64-laptops
chrisl has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
unsaidMoonshine has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
unsaidMoonshine has joined #aarch64-laptops
chrisl has joined #aarch64-laptops
unsaidMoonshine has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
unsaidMoonshine has joined #aarch64-laptops
chrisl has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
changwoo_ has quit []
changwoo_ has joined #aarch64-laptops
unsaidMoonshine has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]