<Begasus_32>
Aanmaken van bestand ‘/packages/gdk_pixbuf_x86-2.42.2-7/.self/lib/x86/gdk-pixbuf-2.0/2.10.0/loaders.cache.UVEQP1’ is mislukt: Read-only file system
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<Begasus>
heading out here, cu peeps!
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<matt3>
hello, is all ok ?
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<extrowerk>
trungnt2910[m]: i have no idea what you are talking about locales, i just assume it is something we should never discuss, but somebody had a "neat" idea, and now we are talking about t, because that guy.
<trungnt2910[m]>
It's late now so I'll reply to any reviews next morning.
<extrowerk>
trungnt2910[m]: can you explain what does this locale_t stuff provides for Haiku or for the enduser?
<ermo[m]>
extrowerk: I assume you aware of what functionality locales provide in general?
<extrowerk>
nope
<extrowerk>
definetely not i18n.
<extrowerk>
but then if it is not about internationalization then i have no idea what could this "locale_t" stuff provide.
<extrowerk>
you can answer my question tomorrow if it is better for you , i am all ears.
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<rhx_irc>
unfortunately, haikuos does not boot on the steam deck
<ermo[m]>
extrowerk: localisation is about providing local rules for units, currency, punctuation etc.
<ermo[m]>
local time format, start of week etc.
<x512[m]>
ermo: Why it is needed for command line applications?
<ermo[m]>
it's also about setting the message language you want
<ermo[m]>
some people don't speak anything but their native tongue
<ermo[m]>
so to help them, one can set things up so e.g. console messages are given in their native language
<x512[m]>
ermo[m]: That people probably can't use command line.
<ermo[m]>
that's a sweeping assumption =)
<x512[m]>
Some minimal English knowledge is required. Command names are not translated.
<x512[m]>
Decimal separator locale settings are often harmful, it break many things.
<ermo[m]>
x512[m]: the theory goes that if a system (including libraries etc.) is fully locale aware, this won't happen...
<x512[m]>
It is often needed to run programs with LOCALE=C.
<ermo[m]>
look, I'm not a locale expert. I'm just sharing the point of view behind proving locales.
<ermo[m]>
s/proving/providing/
<extrowerk>
ermo[m]: in my readin that means this is kind of optionalstuff as every calucation/computation will be done in a basis locale, is this right?
<ermo[m]>
if my locale is set to en_DK, then e.g. the thousands separator and the decimal fraction separator would be interpreted like a danish person was taught in school in the ideal case.
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<ermo[m]>
in danish, ',' is the fractional separator and '.' is the thousands separator
<ermo[m]>
now imagine japanse, chinese, hebrew etc.
<ermo[m]>
*japanese, sorry
<extrowerk>
so it means a result of some operation is °K in default, but i can override and say i need the result in °C, is this all about?
<ermo[m]>
in theory, yes
<ermo[m]>
a better example would be °F and inches/feet
<ermo[m]>
vs sane units (sorry, couldn't resist!)
<extrowerk>
do i see it correctly the problem lies in the unix tradition?
<x512[m]>
Lets output numbers like 三千百四十一 and break everything.
<ermo[m]>
extrowerk: Maybe?
<ermo[m]>
I think the point is that once you set your locale, all locale-aware applications (console or otherwise), will default to respecting the various settings for that locale
<ermo[m]>
both in terms of messages, inputs accepted and default formats displayed to the user etc.
<x512[m]>
Locale is mostly relevant to GUI applications that usually do not use POSIX locale.
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<ermo[m]>
On the one hand, I can understand your perspective. On the other hand, I think the idea is that once you decide to use locales, you want to go all-in and support it from the libc and up?
<ermo[m]>
including in the console.
<ermo[m]>
(text console)
<ermo[m]>
if you view that as just yet another "view"
<x512[m]>
For computer specialist it may be hard to understand/search translated terms.
<x512[m]>
Haiku have Locale Kit that should be used for native applications.
<ermo[m]>
nice =)
<extrowerk>
ermo[m]: for me ir feels like a normal nixy hack, nothing useful, but i am probably way too naive.
<x512[m]>
extrowerk: Needed mostly for ported applications.
<ermo[m]>
extrowerk: FWIW, just the fact that you are saying that makes me believe that you're not a "lost cause" (in the "not too hard-headed to learn/accept something new/different" sense)
<ermo[m]>
and FTR, I can be hard-headed and obstinate too! 😅
<extrowerk>
(most of the time i add "but probably i am way too naive" if i am unsure about the topic i am talking about, but considering no CS PHD were able to expalin me what all of this things does i consider locale_t as all of the u*ixy stuff a total bullshit made only to extract more tax-money for scientists who can't explain things. I always kepep the "i am stupid" option open, but strangely in case of u*ix i don't have to use this escape way
<extrowerk>
too often. What does it says about u*ix?
<ermo[m]>
and wrong
<ermo[m]>
Keep in mind that orginal unix was very simple and US centric.
<ermo[m]>
I think the kernel was originally like 9k SLOC of K&R C
<ermo[m]>
on the PDP mini-computers from DEC
<extrowerk>
that was also wrong.
<ermo[m]>
well, it is what it is I guess =)
<ermo[m]>
And the internet grew out of DARPA-net, which was a us-sponsored research project for creating a resilient network in the face of nuclear armageddon
<extrowerk>
we are not in the '70s anymore, the eternal '70s needs to end.
<ermo[m]>
and here we ar
<ermo[m]>
* and here we are
<ermo[m]>
in the 80s, unix was a fruitful research area
<ermo[m]>
and in the 70s as well
<ermo[m]>
Xerox PARC, SGI, SUN
<ermo[m]>
somewhere along the point people became dogmatic about what UNIX is.
<x512[m]>
extrowerk: But ported software from Linux still use '70s API and depend on it.
<ermo[m]>
when originally, it was very vibrant
<ermo[m]>
so in that sense, something like Haiku is actually very UNIX
<ermo[m]>
just in a different sense than the dogmatic one ^^
<extrowerk>
ermo[m]: "There is nothing a mere scientist can say that will stand against the flood of a hundred million dollars."
<ermo[m]>
C++ for starters. And it's service/kit-inspired approach
<ermo[m]>
*its
<extrowerk>
x512[m]: this is really bad situation and it will affect the life of countless generations. We should not just leave the best options for them but also remove the unnecessary burden what we can also for them.
<ermo[m]>
for instance, to me it's completely useless to go "well, my vi clone is bug-for-bug compatible with the original vi! :flex:)
<ermo[m]>
s/)/"/
<ermo[m]>
like, the good point about vi is that it shows all the lines of a program visually. The existing editors didn't (ex)
<ermo[m]>
and that it works well on a 1200 baud terminal
<ermo[m]>
but it's a product of both its time and the actual physical keyboard layout it was coded on, plus the surrounding tech
<x512[m]>
vi[m] is evil. Can be closed only with killing.
<ermo[m]>
you know, I've recently begun learning vi[m] key bindings
<extrowerk>
If you have a child think about it if you would let him or her learn about *nix. It will unrecovereably affect their mind. No backup way. Thereifore we are terribly respnsible for their view.
<ermo[m]>
Turns out it's applicable to more than just vi, because vi was(is?) the POSIX standard editor
<ermo[m]>
I'm using DOOM Emacs which defaults to evil-mode, hence the usefulness of learning the keys
<ermo[m]>
is it a bit arcane? Yep.
<ermo[m]>
Is it stupid per se? Hm. I don't think so, but it's fine for people to disagree.
<ermo[m]>
I am certainly learning to appreciate the nice points about a well-implemented modal editor, let's say.
<extrowerk>
Considering the u*ixy way or posix or anything similar outdated tech something important is just something what we could write on our gravestone: "I can't belive there is anything beyond *nix".
<ermo[m]>
in comparison, default vi (nvi2 I believe) on FreeBSD is ... not very good and quite bare bones
<extrowerk>
While even the l*ux fanboys says: it is just a kernel.
<extrowerk>
errno: why do you compare a *nix to a *nix? Why don't you compare them to an OS?
<ermo[m]>
So, like, the concept of a "pipe" was apparently conceived and implemented over a weekend. That concept pretty much rocks.
<extrowerk>
whyat did the OS did to you? Do you hate them?
<ermo[m]>
FreeBSD is a complete OS in my book. But, again, feel free to disagree.
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<ermo[m]>
extrowerk, not sure I follow what you're saying?
<extrowerk>
the concept doesn't do anything if you build layers on top of layers on top of layers. And thats happening. Therefore your "oh it is spartanian" way doesn't make any difference.
<ermo[m]>
I consider myself a computing enthusiast, so I try to keep abreast with multiple operating systems and user interfaces just to avoid falling into the "there's only one way to do things trap"
<extrowerk>
As long as your stuff allows increased complexity : it is harmful. And as *nix doesn't fights agains complexity it is harmful.
<ermo[m]>
extrowerk: look, the points I make are not that *NIX is the end all, be all. It's just that it was once a fertile ground for new ideas and that to be able to carry forward the state of the art, it's probably a good idea to understand those ideas and how they started out and under which constraints.
<ermo[m]>
just like it's a good idea to understand LISP if you want to become an accomplished programmer in the general sense
<extrowerk>
ermo[m]. i understand that, but i also understand we let it out of control, and now we are busted.
<ermo[m]>
That's a fairly defeatist view, isn't it?
<extrowerk>
the 70's wre nice, strange fashion, drugs, etc. I understand that. But it is OVER.
<ermo[m]>
In the sense that, UNIX existing doesn't imply that people should just stop innovating in the computer/systems programming space =)
<ermo[m]>
hence my support for (and enjoyment of) Haiku.
<extrowerk>
Nobody said anybody should stop innovate. I exaplained the *nixy tradition should be thrown away to allow innovation.
<ermo[m]>
Look at e.g. PowerShell. They took the idea of the pipe and expanded upon it in a really nice way AIUI.
<ermo[m]>
i.e. you can pipe objects and not just text-streams.
<ermo[m]>
or byte-streams really
<ermo[m]>
anyway, back to Haiku. Sorry to everyone else for the detour.
<extrowerk>
So at the end of the day: does the locale stuff feels a hack or not?
<ermo[m]>
It feels like an extension to me.
<ermo[m]>
I'll let other peopl discuss whether or how "hacky" it is.
<ermo[m]>
s/peopl/people/
<ermo[m]>
* an extension that delivers real value to me.
<extrowerk>
I am from car industry, we are under attack at every possible second. We did silly things. We still do silly things. Still, we *are responsible. We follow up and counter-attack issues, we throw away every previously aggreed-pon solutions if necessary. I miss this flexibility from computing.
<extrowerk>
You say it is because backwards compatibility.
<extrowerk>
For me it is a clear sign: you don't know what you are talking about.
<extrowerk>
Otherwise you wouldn't ever say this.
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<extrowerk>
I am not silly, backwad compatibility what makes money for companies , and also they are the same entity who stops innovation.
<ermo[m]>
If you think I'm defending the current state of affairs, then I must have either worded myself very poorly or maybe you just have a bone to pick. I don't really care about the mechanism as such. Glibc is what it is and whether or not I agree with it, its licence means that it is the defacto standard libc for better or for worse in the currently dominant *NIX-derived platform.
<extrowerk>
only one question: why do they exists.
<ermo[m]>
I'm also done "discussing" this with you. Feel free to rail at someone else.
<ermo[m]>
extrowerk: Go ask someone from the GNU project if you _really_ want to know?
<extrowerk>
err: my mother tongue is not english, probably i misunderstood you.
<extrowerk>
i _really_ want to know.
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