ChanServ changed the topic of #asahi to: Asahi Linux: porting Linux to Apple Silicon macs | "Does XXX work yet?": https://alx.sh/fs | GitHub: https://alx.sh/g | Wiki: https://alx.sh/w | Topics: #asahi-dev #asahi-re #asahi-gpu #asahi-alt #asahi-stream #asahi-offtopic | Keep things on topic | Logs: https://alx.sh/l/asahi
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<amilie>
Okay okay, I return on a new macOS install.
<amilie>
macOS was being funky and restarted like 15 times.
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<monthebi1f>
question, currently looking at installing vortex mod manager, taking me down a rabbit hole of needing winetricks which needs wine-common which dnf isn't aware of when you go searching for it. Is there some wine stuff missing from Asahi? (A while back some stuff was mentioned but since then i think we've had a major release, is wine and wine stuff available atm?)
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<monthebi1f>
and then protontricks also requires wine-common as well and I'd like to use that to tinker with whatever proton / wine stuff exists around WoW when I try and launch it.
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<monthebi1f>
anyone managed to get skyrim mods workinng on asahi, I can't seem to get script extender to load.
<monthebi1f>
?
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<monthebiff>
I'm constantly amazed by stuff that works on this platform
<monthebiff>
like im running into issues but its still so cool that its this good
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<fl0_id>
monthebiff like iirc it would be missing because you cannot run wine on normal asahi, just inside muvm? so any changes like winetricks would have to go in there I assume and then presumably. be configured correctly
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<chaos_princess>
the wine story is even more complex, stock fedora wine will not work inside muvm too due to some filesystem emulation going wrong, but if you compile your own build it will work then
<monthebiff>
so that's still the case then
<chaos_princess>
yea, lina was working on fixing it, but then things happened
<monthebiff>
... that's just running the stock wine though? what about the actual wine-common dependency errors with regard to the protontrics/winetricks packages?
<chaos_princess>
probably nobody packaged those for arm64 for obvious reasons
<monthebiff>
i think they are packaged... dnf search will find both those packages on asahi
<monthebiff>
just when you go to install it they're blocked by wine-common being missing
<chaos_princess>
so, that means wine-common is not packaged then :P
<monthebiff>
yeh, so if i go grab wine from arch/ compile it etc... that's still not gonna help me install those packages is it?
<chaos_princess>
what specific stuff do you need from winetricks and is it a lot?
<chaos_princess>
if i understand winetricks purpose correctly, it just grabs non-redistributable parts of windows as exes/msis and installs them automatically
<monthebiff>
i wanted protontricks in an attempt to get WoW running in a steam launched process. I've seen references to missing fonts/ ie8 that get resolved through things like lutris before. I was hoping to stumble upon a dependency that suddenly made the game run.
<chaos_princess>
try the following - build wine yourself, then force-install winetricks
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<chaos_princess>
as in - pass whatever override flag to dnf that says that it does not need to resolve dependencies
<monthebiff>
i was thinking of someething similar
<monthebiff>
--skip-broken to skip uninstallable packages
<monthebiff>
not sure that's what im looking for but its part of the output.
<monthebiff>
next question, will protontricks/ winetricks run afoul of the same filesystem emulation problems? Do we know? Has someone done this before?
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<chaos_princess>
good news, you will be the first person to find out
<monthebiff>
O_o im in a medical trial this week with nothing to do but sit.
<monthebiff>
this is gonna eat my week :P
<monthebiff>
can see it happening :P
<monthebiff>
in a completely unrelated note, irssi with colored nicknames is an entire world of difference. i can actually read :P
<chaos_princess>
hah. i remember at one point my client switched the nickname->colour algorithm for some reason, and it was really strange for a week or two since i got use to certain people being certain colour
<chaos_princess>
fex has it's own overlayfs-like thing that sometimes mis-resolves symlinks
<bgtlover[mds]>
oho, now that's fun!
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<monthebiff>
bgtlover[mds im only guessing. pre guessing. because its vaguely related to wine and wines broken apparently.
<monthebiff>
pre empting a problem before even starting :P
<chaos_princess>
specifically the way fedora packages wine is broken, as it uses symlink tricks to allow multiple simultaneous installs
<monthebiff>
... but that's fine on on none asahi fedora, correct? So I doubt that will change?
<chaos_princess>
non-asahi fedora does not have to use fex
<chaos_princess>
and, as i mentioned before, there is an unfinished patchset to remove fex's overlayfs and use the real deal
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<monthebiff>
Although, Asahi Fedora is an official remix, with a level of committment maintaining those repos? this fall under that as part of the packaging process?
<bgtlover[mds]>
O yeah, I just remembered. In muvm, in the bridges folder, in the pipewire bridge, am I reading things wrong, or are you actually parsing the C structs for spa_pod objects and such using pointer arithmetic alone? if so, first, that's awesome! second, why not generate the pw bindings or use the existing pipewire crate?
<monthebiff>
ooooooo
* j`ey
uses Arch wine
<bgtlover[mds]>
chaos_princess: now that reminds me of debian fuckery
<monthebiff>
yeh ive got a version of it downloaded and converted to an .erofs file... think it should mount into muvm
<j`ey>
yup, what i did too
<chaos_princess>
bgtlover[mds]: yep, pretty much. and i can't be bothered to add a dependency for parsing a struct or two, while i run gentoo and we vendor all the things for rust crates, fedora has some complicated system for their rust dependencies that i do not want to touch.
<chaos_princess>
bgtlover[mds]: what does debian do
<monthebiff>
i didnt get much further than that before i ran out of time to spend making WoW work... but now i've found out protontricks is a thing and im like... oooo. ideas.
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<monthebiff>
also thinking of trying the WINED3D option... but i think the result will be an error about missing windows bits, similar to guild wars launching. think protontricks might help with that
<bgtlover[mds]>
chaos_princess: lol! never heard of someone doing it this way, I usually at least declare the C structs locally in the file, to mem::transmute the raw data I get, but it's been a long time since I did stuff like this, back when I liked embedded better than I do now :p
<chaos_princess>
it is impossible to parse a spa_pod like that, it has variable-length structures inside
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<bgtlover[mds]>
<chaos_princess> "bgt lover: what does debian do" <- it's really hard into the simlinking business, since dpkg I suppose? doesn't have a system for specifying that, say, pipewire-pulse replaces pulseaudio and such, like pacman does. So, in case there are conflicting packages, debian keeps both of them around, simlinking the new one into place, or just parts of the new one, that's why the pipewire-jack business doesn't happen automatically
<bgtlover[mds]>
and requires the user to write some files in ld.conf.d or however that directory is called. Whenever I see stuff like that, I want to use nix again
<chaos_princess>
bgtlover[mds]: ah, yea, i think everyone has a similar-ish system, i think in debian it is called "alternatives", in gentoo we have eselect, and so on
<monthebiff>
debian alterantives is correct
<monthebiff>
been a while since ive used that
<monthebiff>
and that was on ubuntu
<chaos_princess>
bgtlover[mds]: that exists, it is mostly chadmed and me working on it
<monthebiff>
arch is still x86 only isnt it? I miss pacman and the AUR :P
<bgtlover[mds]>
and now I saw the message about variable length structures, can C even do that? gotta do some heavy reading on it, sounds like something better suited for nom
<bgtlover[mds]>
monthebiff: isn't OG asahi still maintained? that was based on alarm
<chaos_princess>
monthebiff: alarm got taken over by new people, and it may or may not work
<bgtlover[mds]>
new people...that always sounds like an ominous premonition of breakage lol
<chaos_princess>
bgtlover[mds]: not really? like, the variable length structure story is slightly better in c, as you can just index "out of bounds" if you know what you are doing, but neither can cope with multiple variable length items in one struct
<bgtlover[mds]>
ahh, so those act like data carying enums in rust? O yeah, btw, apparently it's now safe to repr C those, because they have a stable representation
<monthebiff>
my hard drive isn't big enough to maintain multiple distros, particulary with 100GB installs of WoW floating around. Would be cool to get an arch system running though, last time i was on that i was on polybar/bspwm desktop... i'd have to learn wayland/ a new window manager/ pipewire etc. Not a thing i can do while travelling (at least not atm)
<chaos_princess>
bgtlover[mds]: no, what you do in c is declare the trailing array as being zero-length and then index into it
<bgtlover[mds]>
monthebiff: waybar is a replacement for polibar from what I know, and sway is a drop-in replacement to i3, there was a bspwm like wayland compositor, but I forgot about it.
* j`ey
uses dwl as a dwm replacement on asahi
<bgtlover[mds]>
chaos_princess: huh? but that's...wildly unsafe! how do you know what you index into? what if you're indexing into freed memory, or outside the bounds? oofages indeed
<chaos_princess>
you are writing c, so if you index into free memory, or out of bounds, thats a skill issue
<monthebiff>
j`ey I'm using Krohnkite (some Kwin Script)
<monthebiff>
It works well enough for now
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<bgtlover[mds]>
and people can keep all those allocations and stuff in their heads? yeah, guess I've been writing too much rust, gotta relearn to think in the C mindset
<sven>
rust turns "keep all these allocations, etc. in your head (and mess up anyway)" into "fight with rustc" for me ;)
<bgtlover[mds]>
chaos_princess: lol! that sounds like what those kernel people say, just be careful, just have everyone review every line of code for UB, just don't hold a gun to your foot to shoot yourself with, yeah...doesn't work in the real world unfortunately
<bgtlover[mds]>
sven: but that's the point, fighting with rustc gains you a deeper understanding of the use cases you didn't think of before, which is why it's very good that a lot of the rust community tries to create an API that's as resistent to misuse as possible
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<sven>
i mean, yes? that's exactly my point
<monthebiff>
just write it in assembly /s
<bgtlover[mds]>
and yeah, I would like to fight with it less! but at the end of it, I'm more aware of the bugs I would have caused if I used my original approach
<bgtlover[mds]>
monthebiff: lol yes, I wrote an OS kernel in that once
<sven>
more seriously though, every language has their pros and cons. just use whatever tools gets the job done 🤷♂️
<monthebiff>
i think once ive finished with reminding myself how being a php dev goes im gonna hace a play with rust and c
<monthebiff>
spent too long inside the web/ http response space
<bgtlover[mds]>
random thought of the day: are GPUs architecture dependent? so like, if I have an arm or riscv device, why wouldn't I be able to put in an amd gpu, since the gpu's architecture is different internally anyway?
<j`ey>
bgtlover[mds]: you can do that
<bgtlover[mds]>
sven: except go, friends don't let friends use go :p
<monthebiff>
i was gonna ask has anyone tried running an egpu with asahi and had any success?
<j`ey>
arm motherboards (that aren't single board computers) usually have an external GPU via pcie
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<sven>
bgtlover[mds]: no, not except go. _every_ language has their uses
<bgtlover[mds]>
j`ey: really? awesome! so I could augment the m1 gpu with an amd one for example?
<sven>
(well, maybe except the esoteric ones ;))
<bgtlover[mds]>
or I could attach it to my existing raspberry pi?
<chaos_princess>
monthebiff: you will not have success, but that is due to apple having a weird pcie controller with missing features, not due to it being arm
<JamesB192>
Iirc there is a memory thing where egpu memory is not seen in the main address space.
* JamesB192
shrugs.
<JamesB192>
My memory leaks.
<monthebiff>
chaos_princess hardware? not something that's yet to be implemnted on the Asahi side?
<chaos_princess>
well, we do not have thunderbolt at all, but when we get it, gpus will not work (sorta, you _can_ make them work with a bunch of terrible hacks)
<monthebiff>
that is a shame i had visions of a not too shabby soc with a nice desk setup to support it.
<j`ey>
the gpus seem pretty good already
<monthebiff>
? which is it? they're good now? or they never will be?
<j`ey>
(I meant the M series gpus seem good! at least for my usage)
<monthebiff>
oh yeh sure, today i was playing halo on legendary, and flicking between original graphics/ remastered quite happily. im amazed at what the machines putting out
<monthebiff>
but im still looking for a proper way to figure out what i should get for a given title, especially if an update comes out where suddenly my monitor supports 120HZ (m1pro macbook, that is correct?)
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<chaos_princess>
the only way to know is to run it and see what happens :P
<bgtlover[mds]>
<chaos_princess> "well, we do not have thunderbolt..." <- oho, terrible hacks? those are the best!
<j`ey>
im happy that i got this re-implementation of the game i play, ported to arm64, can play at 1000fps without it getting warm at all
<chaos_princess>
bgtlover[mds]: no, those are not "fun" kinds of terrible, they are just terribl
<chaos_princess>
it is "trap userspace memory accesses to gpu memory and emulate in kernel" kind of terrible
<monthebiff>
well right now im sitting on about 60fps, and thats my limit. but to get that im often rendering at about 60% of native resolution and then scaling up... but not every game provides the same options / controls. so right now whatever i play is on the lowest settings i can set and i just hope that fps/ input latency is good enough
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<monthebiff>
guild wars 1 for example is not... and that makes me sad, cause i've never finished it
<bgtlover[mds]>
chaos_princess: ahh, O well
<monthebiff>
j'ey that must be satisfying :P
<chaos_princess>
rpi also has the same issue, and that is what they are doing
<monthebiff>
World of Warcraft would be my golden app you know, the thing that always kept me vaguely on Windows for years and years and years... i want it to work _so_ badly
<bgtlover[mds]>
btw, unrelated question: since you patch the boot partition of mac OS from what I'm getting here, how is it that macos doesn't kill m1n1 when it aplies updates? I know windows does that in a lot of cases, so I had to reinstall grub a lot when I was dual booting, is it any different here?
<chaos_princess>
(they probably all bought the same ip block from synopsys)
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<j`ey>
bgtlover[mds]: it's on a different partition
<chaos_princess>
bgtlover[mds]: you install what is effectively a second copy of macos, and patch that, not your normal os
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<bgtlover[mds]>
j`ey: ahh, that makes more sense! and how do you choose between macos and linux then, from the boot manager of the computer instead of on boot?
<j`ey>
bgtlover[mds]: when you do a long press of the power button, it takes you to a GUI that gives you the choice
<chadmed>
bgtlover[mds]: this platform was not designed by gormless apes so the bootloading/partitioning system works properly
<chadmed>
also we have no microsoft to disrepsecfully overwrite efi vars whenever they feel like it
<bgtlover[mds]>
j`ey: an actual gui, awesome! it'd be far too nice if voiceover worked on there
<chaos_princess>
bgtlover[mds]: It does.
<chaos_princess>
Boot picker is a tiny macos
<bgtlover[mds]>
chadmed: gormless apes? lol, that's what I'll use from now on!
<monthebiff>
think a bunch of accessibility stuff should work there no?
<chaos_princess>
chadmed: tbh, it is better in uefi days, at least it is easily fixable from efi settings
<bgtlover[mds]>
chaos_princess: wait whaaaaaaaaat? is there any recording to demo this? anywhere...what, huh? but that's impossible! audio doesn't work in uefi, we've been told for ages...
<chadmed>
chaos_princess: kinda. ive only ever owned a single motherboard that had a proper uefi shell in it though, and that was a z87/haswell era thing from asrock
<chaos_princess>
bgtlover[mds]: this is not a uefi platform
<chaos_princess>
Boot picker boots real macos, then reboots into what you picked
<bgtlover[mds]>
ok, I'm done! I'm not sure I want to know how much it'll cost me, but when this two gigs of ram computer breaks on me, I'll buy one of those
<j`ey>
(asahi linux uses UEFI, that u-boot provides, not macOS/iBoot)
<chadmed>
lmfao kinda tangentially it is really funny that the lightning to hdmi thingy runs a full fat darwin/xnu under the hoot
<monthebiff>
the boot process on these machines is really cool, ive read the blog posts/ anything i can find about 8 times
<chadmed>
hood*
<chadmed>
if apple made it now it would probably just run rtkit or something
<chaos_princess>
I do not think rtkit can do that, but who knows
<bgtlover[mds]>
chaos_princess: that reminds me of those efforts to kill grub by booting a mini linux distro in there, then using some kernel tricks I forgot about to boot into the real kernel, and apparently it'd work for windows too? I forgot how the distro was called though, clear linux or something like that
<j`ey>
chadmed: you saw that nick ported mini to the cable?
<chadmed>
yeah how awesome
<chaos_princess>
bgtlover[mds]: petitboot, and that is mostly how POWER boots
<chadmed>
bgtlover[mds]: clear linux is/was intel's -O999999 -march=fuck-up-amd-performance hyper-optimised distro
<bgtlover[mds]>
chadmed: wait wait wait, you're telling me that the adaptor runs a full macos kernel in it? holy shit, that thing has more memory than symbian phones!
<bgtlover[mds]>
chaos_princess: power, aka power pc?
<chadmed>
yes
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<chadmed>
it's still around in niche HPC/HEDT applications
<chaos_princess>
bgtlover[mds]: since apple really really really liked lightning until eu told them to knock it off, and lightning could not do enough speed to output a raw video feed, they sent out h264 frames, over lightning, decoded it in the adapter and sent raw video from that
<chadmed>
kinda going the way of sparc though
<chaos_princess>
power is kinda cool if you need insane amounts of ram on a single node, and useless for anything else
<chadmed>
i wonder if ibm are still trying to make smt8 work in the lab
<chaos_princess>
don't they have it already?
<chaos_princess>
not sure why you want it , but it should be there
<bgtlover[mds]>
chaos_princess: insane, like how bad?
<chadmed>
oh huh power8 got it
<maz>
P10 definitely has SMT8.
<chaos_princess>
bgtlover[mds]: insane as in "good" kinds of insane, like think 8tb
<chaos_princess>
they do it by putting the ddr controllers on the memory dimm itself, and running a pcie-style link to them. latency suffers, but you get a ton of ram from one chip
<chadmed>
you can have some stupid amount like 2PB
<maz>
ISTR P8 having bizarre constraints on the SMT usage (save MM context mandatory for threads on the same core)
<maz>
same*
<bgtlover[mds]>
chaos_princess: 8 tb ram? has that much ram actually been manufactured? the logistical challenges of cramming the data bus with that much capacity though, holy shit!
<chaos_princess>
it helps if you run sap hana, and not sure what else
<chadmed>
nothing that aids and abets s4hana is awesome
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<maz>
"but wait, transactional memory is awesome!" (me sucks)
<maz>
ducks*
<maz>
(ffs, I'm even worse than usual today)
<chaos_princess>
how do you even do transactional memory, lock the cacheline and then commit if nobody else touched it?
<maz>
more or less. that's helped a bit if your interconnect knows how to delay snoops the right way.
<maz>
which of course is deadlock-prone.
<chadmed>
just like a real database!
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<amilie>
Morning all !
<monthebiff>
morning o/ its nearly 8pm here :P
<amilie>
Good evening then lmao, I'm back on my desktop but I've got like 300 packaegs to recompile :/
<chadmed>
hate getting back from holiday, doing emerge -auvDN @world, then seeing nodejs, firefox, rust, clang, llvm, gcc and qtwebengine in amongst 300 other things to update
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<amilie>
Oh god yeah I'm glad I use bin packages, but it's still a pain considering I changed my compiler options then never bothered to full update last week.
<amilie>
I just decided to update what I needed (grub) and held off so I have to do it now.
<chadmed>
its not so bad, these macs are stupid fast :p
<amilie>
Ah I'm on my desktop, that's the issue lmao
<amilie>
I'm not on my mac, I use macOS on my mac at current.
<chaos_princess>
chadmed: so, uh, i think slotted rust was a mistake :P
<chaos_princess>
cause it now sometimes decides to download rust 1.76, and then incrementally build all updates to the current version instead of fetching rust-bin for current version - 1
<chadmed>
which package causes that? have we not updated something to use RUST_MIN_VER?
<chaos_princess>
none of ours, and you can usually tell it to knock it off, but i've never seen that failure mode before slotted rust
<chadmed>
i kinda agree but also it saved my bacon when i had to rebuild 6.12.12 and still had rust 1.84 lying around
<bgtlover[mds]>
<chadmed> "nothing that aids and abets..." <- what's that?
<chadmed>
bgtlover[mds]: the sap application that runs on top of hana (which is their stupid proprietary db engine)
<bgtlover[mds]>
<chaos_princess> "chadmed: so, uh, i think slotted..." <- slotted rust?
<chadmed>
gentoo versioning stuff. sorry, we should go to #asahi-alt
<chaos_princess>
gentoo's thing to install multiple versions of rustc at once
<bgtlover[mds]>
chadmed: eww, that thing can go die in fire
<chadmed>
gentoo or sap :p
<bgtlover[mds]>
chaos_princess: don't we have rustup for that?
<chaos_princess>
that is for distro-provided rustc
<bgtlover[mds]>
chadmed: SAP
<runxiyu_>
(rustup never fails to confuse me)
<bgtlover[mds]>
chaos_princess: distros provide rustc? now that's interesting, without cargo, just rustc? what can one do with that?
<chaos_princess>
with cargo
<amilie>
I thought cargo was a rust dependency?
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<chaos_princess>
and there are several projects that use cargo-less rust, linux kernel for example
<chadmed>
cargo is nothing more than a package manager. you do not need cargo to compile and run rust programs
<bgtlover[mds]>
amilie: I mean, technically you can compile stuff without cargo, just drive rustc yourself, I believe meson does, or did, that?
<runxiyu_>
it's also not that difficult to use makefiles with rustc
<bgtlover[mds]>
but I got confused and thought distros ship rustc without cargo
<runxiyu_>
though you can't use crates easily, but idrc
<chadmed>
bgtlover[mds]: no, but we do manage rust versions via our package manager. rustup is not commonly used on gentoo, and the only time i find need to use it is when trying to pull in rust for oddball targets like softfloat
<chadmed>
i really want m1n1 to just like stop using softfloat though
<amilie>
I see okay, I must be mistaken then , my apologies.
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<LarstiQ>
chadmed: replace it with integer only math, or do all the targets support hardfloat?
<chaos_princess>
all targets support hardfloat ofc
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<LarstiQ>
how beginner friendly a task would a PR be to make that switch?
<LarstiQ>
maybe I'm being naieve but that sounds doable
<chaos_princess>
i am almost sure rust code does not actually use floats anywhere
<chadmed>
i cant even remember why we forced softfloat in the first place. do we not init the boot cpu fpu in m1n1?
<chaos_princess>
(at least i did a grep for f32 and f64, and only hits were for the logging library, so i guess it can be patched out?)
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<j`ey>
would need to add save/restore for FP regs for HV
<chaos_princess>
chadmed: something tells me it is likely you can old use neon after setting chicken bits
<chaos_princess>
s/old/only/
<chaos_princess>
ah, right, if we do hardfloat, it is not impossible for the thing to decide to optimize a memcpy into vector instructions, and that would need extra hv work
<LarstiQ>
ah
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<amilie>
How the hell is gentoo still updating, it's been updating for 2 hours now.
<bgtlover[mds]>
amilie: compiling the kernel?
<amilie>
Nope just recompiling a ton of stuff to Multilib from 64Bit pure but I did most of this the other day.
<chaos_princess>
out of curiosity, why do you need multilib?
<amilie>
Lookin to compile some stuff for an LFS system!
<chaos_princess>
oh
<amilie>
Just because bored so why not
<chaos_princess>
good luck
<amilie>
Already done 64bit pure LFS so might as well do GLFS nexrt
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* runxiyu_
wonders why they have amd-gpu-firmware installed
<j`ey>
it's just pulled in by some firmware package
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<f_>
Apple radeon graphics
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<Calandracas>
bgtlover[mds], eg: void provides a "rust" with rustc, and a couple of other bits, a "rust-std" with just the standard library, and "cargo" with cargo