<Begasus>
not in the working, when I use Dutch locales the left dropdown menu is not shown correct
<Calisto>
the file type menu?
<Begasus>
"All files and folders"
<Begasus>
In Dutch the string is longer and the arrow doesn't show in the dropdown "button"
<Calisto>
oh i see... hmm... I didn't make any changes to that one but I guess once a little bit of the other work is done, I'll fix the resizing on it. I had to do a similar thing for the disk menu. I'll try and do the same for the left dropdown
<Calisto>
Also, I was able to add a pause button to searches :)
<Begasus>
yeah, thought so :)
<Begasus>
+1
<Calisto>
have to get the final PR ready :)
<Calisto>
everything works well but I need to get it reviewed as soon as possible
<Begasus>
only did some quick checks so far, still on beta4 here
<Calisto>
also any dev here: I'm trying to clone a new copy of the haiku source code but it seems to give me a gcc error on compiling it - __builtin_ia32_ldtilecfg was not declared here
<Calisto>
have no clue why this is happening
<Calisto>
If anyone could give me a pointer on this
<Calisto>
Begasus: apart from that, how's the folder search filtering?
<Begasus>
haven't really used it Calisto :)
<Calisto>
oh aight :)
<Begasus>
should boot into 32bit later, just getting around to the morning usual things :)
<linuxuser01>
@Callisto hi!
<linuxuser01>
sorry one "l" letter
<Calisto>
hiii linuxuser01
<Calisto>
Begasus: https://0x0.st/X4W6.png Added this sort of a pause button for the moment :)
<Calisto>
typing in each character for refreshing the search results in it being too slow to use
<Calisto>
although, I could add a debouncer later :P
<LinuxUser>
I found credentials, did lpe(privilege escalation) and solved all vulnerabilities, so other players in this koth cannot access it(oh I did main objective)
<Calisto>
btw congrats LinuxUser
<Calisto>
damnnn that sounds great :D
<Begasus>
error with the buildtools?
<LinuxUser>
I needed to gain root access and overwrite king.txt with my nickname on thm(linuxuser01) and prevent further intrusion
<Calisto>
that sounds fun :D
<Calisto>
tho i have no clue how someone would even get started with that :)
<Calisto>
I'll try cloning the buildtools again Begasus and let you know :)
<Begasus>
It hasn't been too long ago there were some changes ... :)
<Begasus>
breakfast ...
<Calisto>
same here ... have to get lunch before my hostel warden closes the mess for the day :)
<Calisto>
alright ill be back in some time
<Calisto>
have to get this PR on GitHub review some way or the other by the end of the day :)
DKnoto_W has quit [Quit: Leaving]
LinuxUser has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
DKnoto has joined #haiku
Anarchos has joined #haiku
<Anarchos>
hello
Calisto has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
DKnoto_W has joined #haiku
DKnoto_W2 has joined #haiku
diver has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
DKnoto has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
DKnoto has joined #haiku
DKnoto_W has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
diver has joined #haiku
DKnoto_W has joined #haiku
Calisto has joined #haiku
DKnoto_W2 has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
dpirate has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
dpirate has joined #haiku
DKnoto has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
DKnoto_W2 has joined #haiku
DKnoto_W has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
HaikuUser has joined #haiku
HaikuUser has quit []
diver has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
<Begasus>
bah, back up reading on lua ...
Kokito has joined #haiku
<Kokito>
Howdy
<Begasus>
Hi Kokito!
diver has joined #haiku
<Kokito>
Greetins gs from Beta 5 Begasus
<Begasus>
Greetings from (still) beta4 Kokito :)
<Begasus>
Still need a stable build setup here, so when beta5 is officaly out I'll switch here too (other laptops already switched to the test image install)
CalistoMathis has joined #haiku
Calisto has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<CalistoMathis>
Begasus: It didn't work
<CalistoMathis>
I cloned the buildtools again
<CalistoMathis>
and in the same diirectory as the source code "haiku" folder
<CalistoMathis>
but it still doesn't compile
<CalistoMathis>
does anyone know how to fix this :(
<Begasus>
no idea then, I'm still using the repo from gerrit, maybe you got changes in there that triggers it?
<Anarchos>
hello Begasus
<Anarchos>
CalistoMathis which architecture ? x86, ppc, x86_64
<Begasus>
Hi Anarchos
<Anarchos>
/query Begasus i am not feeling good, still very sad to be left single without my daughter
CalistoMathis has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
DKnoto_W2 has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
DKnoto_W2 has joined #haiku
<Begasus>
ouch, I feel for you Anarchos :(
<Begasus>
not an easy phase to go through :(
<Begasus>
no chance in seeing her shortly Anarchos?
<phschafft>
Begasus: 08:41 < nephele> phschafft: you need to get your sugar consumption under control, putting cookies here every day. how about some vegetables? :D
* phschafft
still happily cuts some nice -- and surely suitable for the warm days -- slices for Anarchos. :)
<Begasus>
too late for that here phschafft :)
<Begasus>
I 'need' my sugar!!! :D
Calisto has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
CalistoMathias has joined #haiku
<phschafft>
hm...
* phschafft
secretly provides Begasus with a cookie then.
Calisto-Mathias has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
<Anarchos>
phschafft: warm ? only 19°C here ...
<Anarchos>
phschafft: i live in the coldest part of France in summer (and hotter in winter...)
* Begasus
got a small boost with that cookie
<Begasus>
mpv 0.38.0 should be good to go now :)
_-Caleb-_ has left #haiku [#haiku]
<phschafft>
Anarchos: over here the coolest place in the house is like 24°C. everything else (including the outsides) is way hotter.
<phschafft>
but I'm also in one of the hottest cities of Germany.
_-Caleb-_ has joined #haiku
Calisto has joined #haiku
<Begasus>
we're in between in temp here in Belgium :)
<phschafft>
over here you sometimes spot a wild lemon, fig, or date in the woods.
<phschafft>
one of our neighbours has banans all your outside in the garden.
<phschafft>
and sand dunes. also common over here.
<Anarchos>
phschafft: Welche Stadt ?
CalistoMathias has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
<Anarchos>
calisto: could you build ?
<phschafft>
Anarchos: wir sind hier in der obereinichen tiefebene. grob frankfurt bis heidelberg, entlang der bergstrasse.
Kokito has quit [Quit: Vision[]: i've been blurred!]
_-Caleb-_ has left #haiku [#haiku]
_-Caleb-_ has joined #haiku
<Calisto>
Anarchos: Basically when im in the haiku directory
<Calisto>
and im running jam -q Tracker
<Calisto>
it gives me this error
<Calisto>
i already have run the configure script as well
<Calisto>
that's pretty much what I had done last time
<Begasus>
Asked for bios_ia32 target boot platform
Calisto has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
zard has joined #haiku
Begasus_32 has joined #haiku
kescher has quit [Quit: Bye]
kescher has joined #haiku
Calisto has joined #haiku
anarchos1 has joined #haiku
<Calisto>
hiii
<Calisto>
sorry Anarchos: I was in class so I couldn't reply as frequently
<zard>
o/
<Calisto>
are you free for a short timei :)
<Calisto>
hi zard :)
<anarchos1>
is it a command to suspend/dump a team to a file, and resume it later ?
<anarchos1>
Calisto no trouble. so you try to build buildtools or haiku ?
<Calisto>
i was trying to build haiku
<Calisto>
just the Tracker application in that as well
<anarchos1>
Calisto in your haiku source tree, at the root, create a generated.x86 folder
<anarchos1>
Calisto go into it and type 'configure;make' it should suffice to build
<anarchos1>
Calisto the trick is that configure must be called from your generated.XXX folder, not from the root node of haiku source tree
<Calisto>
ohhhhhhh
<Calisto>
i think that was what I was doing wrong then
<Calisto>
so inside generated
<Calisto>
i need to create the x86 folder
<Calisto>
and then do it
<anarchos1>
Calisto yes
<Calisto>
hmm... maybe I did do that before and im not sure :))
<Calisto>
hehe gimme a minute
<Calisto>
ill try that
<anarchos1>
it is a good practice to put the arch as a suffix to generated.XXX
<PulkoMandy>
It's not make, it's jam
<PulkoMandy>
And also running configure without arguments won't work anymore on any platform because we like to make things more complicated than they need to be
<PulkoMandy>
(And to make it even more complicated, I doubt documentation has been updated to explain it)
<Begasus>
not sure if there nodd to be changes PulkoMandy?
<Begasus>
has been working still
<Begasus>
nodd/need/* :)
<PulkoMandy>
Yes, on x86_64 with build-cross-tools you are fine
<Begasus>
yeah, that's what I'm using on 64bit here, thanks :) still good then :D
<PulkoMandy>
On x86_gcc2 it used to be possible to run just configure, but now you need to tell it to use gcc13 manually (it makes no sense, the configure sgript job is to detect this automatically)
<Begasus>
ow, probably need changing there then, don't think I've included configure there
<Calisto>
oh okay thanks Begasus
<Calisto>
this started giving loads of output
<Calisto>
so hopefully it works xD
<Begasus>
if used, adjust paths for it :)
<Calisto>
yup it was pretty much the same path
<Calisto>
its weird that I never did all this before
<Calisto>
did something change with the buildtools or somethign ?
<Calisto>
or was I just doing some wrong mistake all this while :)
<Begasus>
started using it after searching haiku-os.org for the right way :)
<Begasus>
again and again* :)
<Calisto>
previously i had just cloned the buildtools and the haiku source directory
<Calisto>
and then just run ./configure in the haiku root
<Calisto>
and it used to just give out "configured successfully" after which everythins used to work :)
<Calisto>
although this seems like its working :))
<Begasus>
that's mentioned at haiku-os.org though? cd generate...
<Calisto>
yah I think I had just followed that and just forgot about it now :(
<Begasus>
heh
<Calisto>
well thanks anyways
<Calisto>
I just need this to finish running
<Calisto>
so that I can test everything before pushing it as a PR for nielx[m] to review :)
<Begasus>
hence a small script is handy at times :D
<Begasus>
+1
<Calisto>
btw how long will this script take to run on something like an AMD A9?
<Begasus>
no idea, I think building the buildtools could take a few hours though :)
<Calisto>
:))
<Calisto>
officially stalled till then I guess :))
<Begasus>
lol
<Calisto>
I'll just continue using the older clone till then.. I'm pretty sure I had configured that wrong but i never realised it till now :)
<Calisto>
hehe xD
<Begasus>
well, if there are no changes, it's done only once :)
* Calisto
continues to stare at a screen with tears in his eyes
<Begasus>
maybe phschafft has some cookie left for you :)
anarchos1 has quit [Quit: Vision[]: i've been blurred!]
<Calisto>
also Begasus thanks a lot for the heads-up that day for the 0x0.st website
<Calisto>
I use it way too much now xD
<Begasus>
no prob, same thing here :)
<PulkoMandy>
Running configure at the root of haiku is also allowed, but less convenient if you want to work with multiple different generated directories with different options
<PulkoMandy>
(For example if you also build for arm or risc-v)
<PulkoMandy>
But running configure without arguments only partially works, the bootloader will not build, and so you can't build a complete diskimage. But you can build most other things
CalistoMathis has joined #haiku
<PulkoMandy>
I think that's a bit annoying, there is no warning and things end up being only half-working, that's confusing for sure
<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] 81c6ba2aee6d - acpica: Demote #error to #warning
<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] 174a9dbf8023 - ACPI: buffer output before sending it to dprintf
<Anarchos>
cthat ACPICA reminds me that i still look for info on how to write a driver for a GPS chip connected through ACPI (if that ever makes sense)
<Anarchos>
CalistoMathis: do you make progress ?
<Begasus>
Anarchos yep :)
<CalistoMathis>
hi anarchos
<CalistoMathis>
yup its compiling or configuring at the moment
<CalistoMathis>
don't know how long its going to take though :)
<Begasus>
for building the kde frameworks I use -j8 though :P
<CalistoMathis>
after that I guess I will try and compile tracker
<CalistoMathis>
and hopefully everything works
<CalistoMathis>
Begasus: If i use just -q it uses all the cores right?
<Begasus>
"-q" stops on errors iirc
<Begasus>
with "jam"
<Begasus>
"-jn" uses number of cpu's
<Begasus>
or cores*
<zard>
"jam -h" gives a nice overview
<zard>
There aren't that many options so its easy to read about all of them
<Begasus>
try "mpv --list-options" ;)
<zard>
"bash: mpv: Command not found". Probably for the better :P
<Begasus>
lol
<Begasus>
probably don't have qmplay2 or the likes installed :)
* Begasus
thinks the cmd:mpv should go into a seperate tools package too ...
<Anarchos>
Begasus: you can use "-j(NCORES+1)" : if all your threads finish at same time, there is always a new compiling thread ready to run. very small improvement though :)
<Anarchos>
anyway i must leave for 3hours. i come back as soon as possible
Nephele has joined #haiku
<Begasus>
thanks on the tip Anarchos
<Begasus>
hi nephele!
<Nephele>
hi Begasus :D
Anarchos has quit []
<phschafft>
nephele detected.
<Nephele>
wake up, check my phone, and forum is already getting on my nerves
<CalistoMathis>
also PulkoMandy: I had a small question about queries. Is the indexing table built every single time a computer restarts or is it built once and stored?
<CalistoMathis>
I noticed that every time I restart my laptop and execute a query for all the files on the system it is much slower than if you do it after the first search (i.e. the second search onwards)
<CalistoMathis>
I thought it was maybe something I broke at first but the same thing happens in the normally installed version of queries as well :(
<Begasus>
trying to read output in Terminal building Haiku is impossible :P
<phschafft>
nephele: hm?
<PulkoMandy>
I think that's just the caches being filled up
<PulkoMandy>
It happens alsoeif you run grep on haiku sourcecode, and that doesn't use queries or index at ald
<CalistoMathis>
right... so basically until the first cache gets filled up the queries take way more time to process just for the first search right?
<CalistoMathis>
ohhhh okay
<CalistoMathis>
that makes sense
<CalistoMathis>
at first I was worried that somethhing I changed destroyed the speed of the query or something :)
<CalistoMathis>
Phew.. dodged a bullet there :P
<Nephele>
I will personally blame you for the file cache in future revisions ;)
<Begasus>
heh
<Begasus>
10 recipes open ... which one needed an update now ... :P
<Nephele>
phschafft: Somebody said they are developing a decorator with a windows xp look, and i volunteered the informatation that that specific api is set to be replaced
<Nephele>
Then I was accused of removing colors from the OS and that that would destroy the soul of haiku...
<phschafft>
hm.
<phschafft>
fun.
* CalistoMathis
gets anxious while reading the chat :)
<Nephele>
mind you, that was a different person .-.
<CalistoMathis>
oh btw my nickname is wrong in this :)
CalistoMathis is now known as CalistoMathias
<Nephele>
heh, i did not notice
<CalistoMathias>
hehe
<CalistoMathias>
okay this is still not done compiling :)
_-Caleb-_ has left #haiku [#haiku]
<Nephele>
why would you be anxious?
<CalistoMathias>
I meant it as a funny remark for the "blaming of file-cache thing" xD.. text ruins the tone :(
<Nephele>
it sometimes does yeah :D
<Nephele>
hard to figure out if you were talking about me beeing grump about the forum or the joke about the file cache
<CalistoMathias>
yah :(
<CalistoMathias>
unfortunately IRC doesn't have the "reply to" feature
<CalistoMathias>
right?
<Nephele>
It does not
<Nephele>
But xmpp does ;)
<CalistoMathias>
ohhhh alright
_-Caleb-_ has joined #haiku
<Nephele>
maybe someday when Renga has reached feature parity with Vision we can then switch
<zard>
"unfortunately IRC doesn't have the..." <- Well, you can improvise it ;)
<Nephele>
though that still needs work
<Nephele>
zard: eww
<Nephele>
leave that matrix reply fallback where it belongs
<Nephele>
:D
<Nephele>
if you want to do this in irc copy the entire line with "> "
<Nephele>
and then send your message
<CalistoMathias>
wow im really hoping Tracker compiles just fine after this whole buildtools thing is done
OscarL has joined #haiku
<CalistoMathias>
if it does not that would be a huge disappointment :(
<CalistoMathias>
since its taking quite a bit of time :)
<zard>
nephele: Yeah, that might be a better way of doing it
<Begasus>
nephele, like yesterday, it helps to stick around if you're not sure :)
<Nephele>
Begasus: confused what you mean :g
Coldfirex has joined #haiku
<Begasus>
the guy from btop was also I guess nephele :P
<Nephele>
ah
<Nephele>
well, in my experience talking can very easily revise any problems
<Begasus>
I'm not "that" old :P
<Begasus>
right, hence sticking around :)
<Nephele>
:)
<Nephele>
right you are
<Begasus>
CalistoMathias, still building fine here :)
<OscarL>
CalistoMathias: unless you plan to build full images, do don't *really* need the buildtools at all on 64 bits.
<OscarL>
s/do don't/you don't/
<Begasus>
g'morning OscarL! :)
<OscarL>
Hola Begasus, and hello to the rest of the usual suspects.
<OscarL>
CalistoMathias: if you comment out line 21 of build/jam/packages/Haiku, you should be able to "jam Tracker" just fine.
<win8linux[m]>
nephele: If you're still open to talk about what a replacement for the Decorator API could be like at a high-level, I've got some potential ideas.
<OscarL>
(/me was reading IRC logs, but missing the newer parts it seems)
<Nephele>
win8linux[m]: this was discussed with i think jessicah and waddlesplash some months ago
<Nephele>
but since I am not currently working on it, no not really
<Nephele>
i just wanted to give cell a heads up
<phschafft>
nephele: I had a window in ~1h?
<phschafft>
*have
<CalistoMathias>
Btw Begasus: by any chance if the configure script stops
<CalistoMathias>
does it have to be run all the way from the start again
<CalistoMathias>
or will it continue from where it was :)
<Nephele>
phschafft: bin gerade im stress mit schriftverkehr mitm amt, und die postschließt um 18h
<CalistoMathias>
There is a power cut here and I don't know whether this thing will finish before the electricity is back :(
* CalistoMathias
cries in frustration :D
<Nephele>
CalistoMathias: the parts that are finished are still finished
<CalistoMathias>
oh ok perfect
<Nephele>
just make sure you don't get any disk corruption
<Nephele>
that would be a bigger pain
<CalistoMathias>
The laptop is just going to turn off in a while
tuaris has joined #haiku
<CalistoMathias>
tho I took a copy of my work :)
<CalistoMathias>
and uploaded it to 0x0.st
<CalistoMathias>
and downloaded it on my other laptop just for safety
<Nephele>
so, do an orderly shutdown before it runs out
<CalistoMathias>
alright
<CalistoMathias>
then ill just quit the process?
<phschafft>
nephele: viel erfolg!
<CalistoMathias>
and shut it down for now
<Nephele>
just "ctrl-c" in the terminal
<CalistoMathias>
yup
<CalistoMathias>
alright I just shut it down
<CalistoMathias>
don't want to get my disk corrupted :(
<CalistoMathias>
alright then, I'll create a PR on github with my current progress for nielx[m] to see.
<CalistoMathias>
once the electricity is back ill finish the config script and add the remaining
<CalistoMathias>
hopefully it should be on gerrit in a while :)
<OscarL>
CalistoMathias: were you building the buildtools? (Again, you don't *really* need them if you just want to "jam Tracker").
<CalistoMathias>
i was running the configure script along with the commands that Begasus gave
<CalistoMathias>
the thing was i had just run ./configure and was trying to do jam -q Tracker
<OscarL>
(even my slow Phenom doesn't takes that long to create haiku.hpkg from scratch)
<CalistoMathias>
but it kept giving me an error saying "__inbuilt_ia32_<something> was not declared here"
<CalistoMathias>
mine was still compiling :(
<CalistoMathias>
and it was using 100% of the CPU :(
<OscarL>
Forum could use some "look of dissaproval" button (only visible to the person recieving them, or admins). Would offer at least some modicum of feedback, without forcing people to further engage, and possibly making things worse.
CalistoMathis has joined #haiku
bbjimmy_64 has joined #haiku
bbjimmy has joined #haiku
<Nephele>
OscarL: the like button already kinda does that
bbjimmy_64 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bbjimmy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<OscarL>
I don't think so.
<Nephele>
have seen that severall times when certain people discussed with developers, even when beeing wrong, that a crowd would just like everything they say
<Nephele>
to show who they think is "right" in that discussion
<Nephele>
anyway, i think one is supposed to just a a PM if you don't want to discuss something in public
bjorkint0sh has quit [Quit: "Every day, computers are making people easier to use." David Temkin]
CalistoMathias[m] has joined #haiku
<PulkoMandy>
nephele: I much prefer the like button than dozen of people writing the same message
<PulkoMandy>
Also in previous instances where I checked it in heated discussions, people were mainly liking *my* posts, so, what is the problem? :D
<Nephele>
You can take the likes and like ratios on the forum to build a social graph if you like. :P
<PulkoMandy>
Anyway, if you want someone visible to the poster and to moderators, I think the flag button does that? (Mayby I'm wrong)
<PulkoMandy>
Yes, but aren't the likes anonymous to normal users?
<Nephele>
I assume your second post is only half serious, but i mean something like where x512 attacked waddlesplash publically on the forum and then people piled on to like their posts because of some wierd following stuff (and way too many car analogous)
<Nephele>
No they aren't. maybe they should be
<PulkoMandy>
(That may make them either more or less toxic)
<Nephele>
do you want the unicode checkmark commit in beta5?
<Nephele>
(is it a fix? :D)
<PulkoMandy>
Well people liked the post because they agree with it. So it's something to think about for waddlesplash in this case (and I guess he did)
<Nephele>
I don't agree. It's akin to a public witch hunt and unacceptable, disagreeing on behaviour can be done, but not by doing something worse yourself
<PulkoMandy>
nephele: Not really needed in beta5. Any change touching the minor ui things al ays end up stuck in the most pointless bikesheddings, got tired of it...
<Nephele>
and I think likes add more fire to such discussions
<Nephele>
okay, i'll merge it to master then
CalistoMathis has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
<PulkoMandy>
nephele: I find it useful. As I said (but more seriously), I do check the "like ratio" when I'm d=scussing something in the forum and it can be a good sign when I say something controversial or something that a lot of people agree with
CalistoMathis has joined #haiku
<PulkoMandy>
if there wasn't this button, people would write replies instead, and still add fire to the discussion
<PulkoMandy>
This isn't a hroblem of the button, but of the people clicking it. If there is a problem at all
<Nephele>
Sure
Calisto has joined #haiku
CalistoMathias[m] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
CalistoMathis has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
Calisto has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
dalme_ has joined #haiku
<OscarL>
lack of +1 doesn't equals disagreement, so that like ratio is incomplete. Flaging seems excessive if one intends to just express disagreement.
<Begasus>
k, back to fluidsynth2 for a bit ... disable gcc2
<PulkoMandy>
The first 16 characters of that are control characters, so we should maybe not try to display them at all in charactermap
<OscarL>
or enter them in text input controls (unless the app explicitly needs them)...
<Nephele>
PulkoMandy: do we have the unicode DB that has all these tagged attributes like non-printing?
<PulkoMandy>
Probably somewhere in icu, and we can add apis in BUnicodeChar if they aren't there yet
* OscarL
shakes fist at StyledEdit entering "[]" when he mixes *again* ctrl/alt + s :-)
<Begasus>
tsss :P
<Nephele>
Noto sans symbols 2 has hand symbols in a different style that noto emoji >:(
yann64-1 has quit [Quit: Vision[]: i've been blurred!]
<Nephele>
and also latin characters, of course
<Nephele>
PulkoMandy: i think i have found my project, consolidate those fonts into one cohesive font, rather than fight the fallback order and then be suprised stuff sometimes looks horrible
<Nephele>
I like the noto symbols2 hands better, they have little sleeves and aren't rounded off
<Begasus>
k, closing down here, cu peeps!
Begasus has quit [Quit: Vision[]: i've been blurred!]
<phschafft>
nephele: any schedule info yet?
<Nephele>
gehe gleich raus um was zu essen zu holen
<Nephele>
denke so 21h wenn du lust hast
<phschafft>
ah, ich dachte du bist schon zureuck vom futtern. hm. 21:00loc. muss ich schauen wie es hier mit futter aussieht.
<phschafft>
danke fuer die info; guten appetit! :)
<Nephele>
wollte ich schon sein, aber ich war noch beschäftigt mit haushalt bisher
CalistoMathias has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
rexbinary has joined #haiku
carlomonte has joined #haiku
carlomonte has quit []
HaikuUser has joined #haiku
HaikuUser has quit []
Calisto has joined #haiku
<Calisto>
Anarchos: I am still updating my GCC
<Calisto>
i don't know why its taking so long
<Calisto>
to extract the tar file
<Calisto>
the configure script also didn't finish running even after 4 hours
<Anarchos>
Calisto no idea. but you are near the goal :)
<OscarL>
Calisto: why are you extracting a tar for gcc? just "pkgman update gcc", no?
<zard>
There's a ghost in HaikuWebKit's PRs where nephele should be. Too bad they banned you :(
_-Caleb-_ has left #haiku [#haiku]
_-Caleb-_ has joined #haiku
vezhlys has joined #haiku
Calisto has quit [Read error: No route to host]
Calisto has joined #haiku
<Calisto>
waddlesplash: also im facing a lot of trouble with running either the pkgman full-sync command or the pkgman update command
<Calisto>
it keeps saying resource not found
<Calisto>
I checked everything including my connection
<Calisto>
doesn't seem to have any issue
<Calisto>
any idea on what I should do there
<waddlesplash>
are you using "master" repos?
<waddlesplash>
r1beta4 are now disabled
<Nephele>
zard: they didn't ban me, unless you consider forcing me to use 2fa to acces my settings page as banning me
<zard>
Ah, I see
CalistoMathis has joined #haiku
<zard>
You can use TOTP for it. No need to use a phone number. KeepassXC/KeePassDX/any other password manager should support it
<Nephele>
I don't care, their website is too much trouble for me
<zard>
heh, I see
<Nephele>
(and thus far, i've lost 1 account to TOTP, and prevented a takeover of an account 0 times)
<Nephele>
anyway, next time i work on haikuwebkit I'm sending my patches to PulkoMandy, or maybe I will set up a shared gerrit instance we can use or something
<phschafft>
nephele: pasta is on it's way. but I think it will still take some time.
jmairboeck has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
<x512[m]>
nephele: I think that there are nothing wrong to critique people actions publically. You can do the sane against me and auditory will decide who is right.
<Nephele>
"auditory will decide who is right.". No that is just dumb, you are inticing people to wrongfully attack people (even if only verbally) by doing that, if you have a problem with someones behaviour you first talk to them, you don't denounce them in a public forum
flag has joined #haiku
<x512[m]>
It is bad to consider your auditory and users dumb.
<Nephele>
Okay? And who said that?
<x512[m]>
> "auditory will decide who is right.". No that is just dumb
<Nephele>
Yes, your argument is stupid
<Nephele>
not your audience
<Nephele>
If you publically denounce someone just because they disagree with you then you clearly aren't interested in a resolution.
<Nephele>
There is no audience needed to resolve your arguments with any developer
<x512[m]>
Your personal attacks against me are meaningless. What do you want? Make me go away? You can do it, you have an authority. Make me change? Impossible, I believe that I am right and I have a right to not follow opinion of random person at Internet.
<Nephele>
I've never personally attacked you
flag_ has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
<x512[m]>
> There is no audience needed to resolve your arguments with any developer
<Nephele>
That is a personal attack? really?
<x512[m]>
No, user audience is the only option to solve problem with a persons with authority that don't want to hear anything.
<x512[m]>
The same with real life politics.
<Nephele>
No, it isn't. It's basically a whitch hunt. If you have a problem you can't resolve with a dev (which may very well also be a problem with a communication barrier) you still have the option to ask other developers
<Nephele>
or ask someone to mediate
<x512[m]>
If your country leader do obviously absurd things, you organize opposition people movements.
<Nephele>
This is not a country, and trying to weaponize an audience is not social behaviou
<x512[m]>
> It's akin to a public witch hunt and unacceptable
<x512[m]>
Sounds like jealousy.
<x512[m]>
Haiku users are not a property of Haiku Inc..
<Nephele>
jealous of... disruptive behaviour on the forum?
<Nephele>
wow, that's a new one
<x512[m]>
It is not disruptive behavior.
<Nephele>
To be fair though, you've only did this quite some time ago. And as such it is fine (not sure why you brought it up again). But doing such things with any regularity would make the forum and extremely toxic and unusable place
<Nephele>
it's basically be "don't disagree with X, they will send a witch hunt after you". Quite simular to canceling people on social media.
<x512[m]>
I have no any kind of authority to initiate witch hunt. I am not a pope (or forum admin). This argument is not applicable.
<Nephele>
If you read the forum from then again (with some users suggesting waddlesplash should be removed because they believe you'd bring more "value" by comparison) I think you'd understand that point of view
<Nephele>
anyhow, i don't see why we need to rehash this?
<x512[m]>
Probably I really need to make Haiku fork if Haiku developers so reject me. I really do not understand your opinion and consider it toxic and personal attack.
<x512[m]>
I never intended "witch hunt" of something else.
<waddlesplash>
must we relitigate this?
<x512[m]>
You started this discussion by mentioning me.
<Nephele>
Well, I explained to you how it was perceived, and you did not do it again. so it's fine.
<x512[m]>
Ask Nephele.
<Nephele>
No, i explained why i did not like the like button feature. that had nothing to do with you
<Nephele>
I used it as an example
<waddlesplash>
I don't think x512[m] ever suggested I should be removed. Yes, others did, and certainly x512[m] had critiques of me, but I don't recall him saying I should be removed
* Anarchos
wonders what is all this fuss about.
<waddlesplash>
And the people who thought and said that have either changed their tune or aren't around anymore anyway
<x512[m]>
Anarchos: haiku_loader.riscv against Waddesplash forum topic.
<waddlesplash>
I think they said it during/around the period where I was relatively inactive and would mostly show up to do code review or participate in discussions, rather than actually writing code. So I can understand why some people perceived me as just "dragging things down" and would rather I didn't comment
<x512[m]>
Nephele claims that it is my sin that I discussed it publicly.
<waddlesplash>
I think there are ways that could've been handled better at the time, on everyone's part (mine included). But it's also years in the past and I don't see a need to relitigate it
<Nephele>
x512[m]: As you brought this topic up again, i explained to you that there are other things you could have tried first. But what's done is done.
<waddlesplash>
nephele: you are the one that brought it up first, earlier today
<waddlesplash>
I don't think it needed to be brought up at all
<Nephele>
waddlesplash: I brought up forum's like button features, i didn't want to reiterate on this.
<waddlesplash>
okay, but you specifically mentioned that episode from years ago, no?
<waddlesplash>
as part of talking about the like buttons
<Nephele>
(based on an earlier comment that somebody said we should have a dislike button)
<Nephele>
Yes I did, it is the most vivid example I recall of people taking "sides" with likes
<waddlesplash>
no
<waddlesplash>
people took sides without likes
<waddlesplash>
the likes are an expression of the sides people had already taken
<Nephele>
That is your perception, not mine.
<waddlesplash>
removing the likes will not fix any of that, in fact it would probably make the problem worse
<waddlesplash>
sure, but our perceptions are at odds, and they can't both be right
<Nephele>
Sure they can, perceptions are a personal thing. You can't make an objective decision. And I already agree (when we discussed this earlier today) that removing the likes would probably have had more comments instead
<waddlesplash>
perceptions are personal but the things you perceive are not
<waddlesplash>
the forum and others' actions are an objective feature of reality, as such it can be perceived correctly or incorrectly
<Nephele>
No
<Nephele>
The use of such features represents a social use of technology and can only be perceived in the recepients own social context
<waddlesplash>
???
<Nephele>
what is rude to one person may not be rude to another
<waddlesplash>
sure
<waddlesplash>
but "rudeness" isn't completely personal or else nobody would ever be justified in saying "that's rude"
<waddlesplash>
because it would be something so specific that it wouldn't make any sense to talk about. but it isn't, so people do say that, and then others change their behavior -- or the person who found it rude changes their perception
<Nephele>
And since I used it as an example, and was talking about my perception (and memory of an event) that does take into account my emotions during that time. And as such can't be completely disentangeled from that
<waddlesplash>
yes, but your emotions can be correct or incorrect, too
<Nephele>
I disagree, emotions simply are.
<waddlesplash>
If a young child wants ice cream for all their meals and gets angry when their parents tell them "No", are they right to be angry? No. So the emotion is "incorrect".
<waddlesplash>
We can't always control our emotions, that's very true, but it doesn't make them any less incorrect
<waddlesplash>
It just means you have to be able to disregard them when they're incorrect
<Nephele>
becoming angry in that instance is not something the child would be able to control. It is something they can real to deal with
<x512[m]>
Pro tip: nick name mention triggers notification for that person.
<waddlesplash>
that's the thing, if you stop "feeding" the emotion, it will diminish, and eventually it will be so minor that it won't be a problem, usually
<waddlesplash>
you can't always control your emotions, but you definitely can learn to control how you act on them, or how you don't act on them
<Nephele>
Sometimes specific stuff makes you angry, and you can figure out why :)
<Nephele>
sure
<waddlesplash>
and that's what we hold children, and then adults, responsible for
<waddlesplash>
right, so, if the emotion is telling you to do something you shouldn't do, the emotion is certainly "incorrect"
<Nephele>
Emotions don't tell you to do anything on their own
<Nephele>
that's your interpretation and mindset
<waddlesplash>
hmm, I don't think that's quite right
<Nephele>
which tells you "I am angry so i must insult people on the internet"
<waddlesplash>
anger, to continue the example, is the/a perception that there is an injustice, and a desire/drive to correct that injustice
<Nephele>
I know some people use their angry to write long winded responses, and then revise those severall times to change the tone. getting through their anger, but still giving a social response
<waddlesplash>
on the other hand if someone perceived that correcting the injustice was beyond their power to affect even a little bit, and in fact would never be corrected, they would not be angry, they would be sorrowful
* Anarchos
points to #haiku-offtopic ...
<Nephele>
I disagree on that point, anger can be triggered without those things, even randomly
<arraybolt3>
Anarchos: I mean this is the Haiku community so I'm not sure it's offtopic
<waddlesplash>
I don't think so, anger is very specifically about "perceived wrongs and seeing the wrongs corrected"
<arraybolt3>
I am very confused why nephele mentioned this and pinged someone over it though. This was begging to trigger this kind of drama.
<Nephele>
arraybolt3: well it's two haiku developers talking about emotional perception... not really related to haiku
<waddlesplash>
you may be uncertain about why you are angry but that's practically the definition of the term
<arraybolt3>
I don't know what CoC Haiku adheres to but were this project following Ubuntu's CoC, nephele would have violated it with this stunt.
<waddlesplash>
the "perception and drive to correct" I mean
<arraybolt3>
not that Ubuntu's CoC matters, but I'm just saying. This is ridiculous.
<arraybolt3>
And other communities recognize this very thing as being ridiculous.
<waddlesplash>
arraybolt3: possibly, but, I'm not too worried about it either. We won't get anywhere if we just sanction people for making silly mistakes all the time.
<Nephele>
arraybolt3: I didn't even ping them, i wrote their nickname without the (m) part. and i wrote waddlesplash too.
<waddlesplash>
writing the nickname without the [m] still pings IIRC
<arraybolt3>
nephele: ahem, the [m] doesn't matter on the Matrix side.
<arraybolt3>
They'll get pinged either way.
<Nephele>
Then the bridge is more broken then i thought, oh well
<waddlesplash>
no, that makes sense to me
<waddlesplash>
and it's irrelevant, even if you had typed out the nickname with spaces or something to make the ping not happen, it would still not have been the right thing to do
Anarchos has quit [Quit: come back later when things will be quieter.]
<waddlesplash>
mentioning someone in a public channel and mentioning old drama from years ago is pretty much always the wrong move
<waddlesplash>
no matter the context. there are very few situations in which that is appropriate
<Nephele>
I was not interested in the drama, but the forum software. I am not sure why the drama thus has to be dug out
dby has quit [Quit: Vision[]: i've been blurred!]
<waddlesplash>
you mentioned the drama?
<Nephele>
I mentioned the topic
<waddlesplash>
mentioning drama inherently digs it up
<waddlesplash>
yes, and the topic was ... a specific example of old drama
<waddlesplash>
there isn't a good way to have "use-mention" distinction about drama
<Nephele>
Sad
<waddlesplash>
well, that's human nature
<waddlesplash>
or the general "average of human behavior" anyway
<Nephele>
I won't mention that again, then, if there is no way to talk about past things without people bringing out the blame game again
<waddlesplash>
was the situation ever "definitively resolved"?
<Nephele>
waddlesplash: from my perspective that drama is long done, so i don't see why you would rehash it
<waddlesplash>
and is everyone happy with the resolution?
<arraybolt3>
also you could just mention the same kind of situation in general without mentioning the person
<Nephele>
I don't care if everyone is happy, it's clearly in the past
<arraybolt3>
i.e. "meh, I don't like this feature since it allows "pack mentality" to kick in when drama surfaces"
_-Caleb-_ has left #haiku [#haiku]
<waddlesplash>
unless the answers are "unequivocally yes", the drama isn't "long gone", just dormant
<Nephele>
waddlesplash: Why? what's the point of holding grudges for that long?
<waddlesplash>
you are asking the wrong question
<waddlesplash>
humans do all sorts of things that don't "have a point" in a logical sense
<Nephele>
No, I think I am asking the right question, because I want to understand
<Nephele>
Because my brain does not understand why you would *want* to rehash it, just because it is mentioned
<waddlesplash>
if you proceed assuming humans are going to behave logically on average you will be frequently disappointed (and probably cause problems)
<waddlesplash>
because you didn't "just mention it"
<Nephele>
I am not asking for an a logical explanation but a social one
<waddlesplash>
you brought it up as an example of something that had not gone well
<waddlesplash>
and not gone well in a specific way
<waddlesplash>
and specifically, how that might be changed for the future
<waddlesplash>
so if someone who was there sees your suggestion and sees how that would have (for example) led to the situation at the time having gone worse, then of course they will have an opinion about it
<Nephele>
Which, from my perspective is "just" mentioning it. I only talked about how I saw the likes used in the topic
<waddlesplash>
if you state things in a way that imply people at the time acted wrongly, they will certainly want to relitigate that
<Nephele>
I did not claim tha
<Nephele>
that
<waddlesplash>
no, you also mentioned people coming after me, and things like that
<waddlesplash>
you implied it
<waddlesplash>
at least that's how I read the messages
<waddlesplash>
"attacked waddlesplash publically on the forum and then people piled on to like their posts"
<waddlesplash>
this is blatantly implying that the behavior was wrong
<waddlesplash>
the only way it could be more explicit is if it said "and that's bad" at the end of the message
<Nephele>
No, it is descriptive
<waddlesplash>
there is literally no other way to read this as you having made a negative value judgement of the siutation
<waddlesplash>
*no other way to read this, besides
<Nephele>
I've not included a judgement, that is the point anyhow.
<waddlesplash>
yes, you did
<waddlesplash>
you judged it was "an attack"
_-Caleb-_ has joined #haiku
<waddlesplash>
you judged it was a "pile on"
<waddlesplash>
these are all negative judgements about what had happened
<Nephele>
Those are not judgements, those are perceptions
<waddlesplash>
and perhaps they are correct, perhaps they are incorrect, but the fact is that they are *judgements*
<waddlesplash>
perceptions ARE judgements
<Nephele>
No, they are not. A perception is personal to me, a judgement is something I assume should apply to how other people see this
<Nephele>
And i did not include any of that.
<waddlesplash>
your distinction is not found in language
<waddlesplash>
if I look out my window and see a tree, I have *made a judgement* that the thing I am looking at is a tree
<waddlesplash>
perception is a form of judgement
<Nephele>
I don't agree.
<waddlesplash>
if you perceive something to be "an attack", this could be correct, or it could be incorrect, but either way it is "a judgement"; it is you seeing something and then concluding that it is in fact an attack
<waddlesplash>
you are looking at a set of facts (messages, behavior, etc.) and then judging that they are something (an attack)
<waddlesplash>
it is basically impossible to have judgement-free perceptions, and the ones that are, are so bland as to be meaningless. "this person said these words at this time"
<Nephele>
No. The perception of an attack is there before you would judge anything
<waddlesplash>
no
<waddlesplash>
you are using the word "judgement" here to mean "conscious decision"
<Nephele>
I am not
<waddlesplash>
but the word is broader than that. the implicit judgement you come to *unconsciously* as part of perception, is still a judgement
<waddlesplash>
I did not need to use my conscious reasoning to see that the thing outside my window is a tree
<waddlesplash>
Nonetheless my conclusion that it is a tree is in fact a judgement
<Nephele>
You can't both claim that a judgement appears in my perception, and then at the same time claim you can *read* this judgement in my message
<Nephele>
The judgement you see in my messages appears in your head, not in the text itself
<waddlesplash>
I can see that your message makes various claims about the situation that are not mere statements of fact of what was said and done, but are judgements about what those sayings and doings amount to
<Nephele>
and I also fail to see where you are trying to go with this
<waddlesplash>
That is in your message, not "in my head"
<Nephele>
claiming it is negative, claiming it is to be brought up again, etc. is all not something I've included in my message
<waddlesplash>
I am trying to make a point that you brought up the situation in a loaded way that was bound to cause offense, because it explicitly made a very negative judgement of the situation
<Nephele>
that is in your interpretation
<waddlesplash>
your message *objectively implies this*
<waddlesplash>
we can ask other people in this channel if you don't believe me
<waddlesplash>
saying "an attack" is a judgement about a situation (that it is an attack), and it is a negative one (because "attacks" certainly are not positive)
<Nephele>
No, that will make me even more unsympathetic to your arguments. "I am trying to make a point that you brought up the situation in a loaded way that was bound to cause offense" at this point I would have said "okay, explain how it was loaded, how it could be worded better"
<x512[m]>
> claiming it is negative, claiming it is to be brought up again, etc. is all not something I've included in my message
<x512[m]>
But it is how society works.
<waddlesplash>
nephele: I am doing exactly that. I am explaining exactly what was negative and how it was a judgement.
<Nephele>
but the two messages you said after that make me not want to listen to you right now about that. There is no *Objective* thing about this at all, and claiming there is implies active malice
<waddlesplash>
no, it doesn't imply active malice
<waddlesplash>
it implies you saw a situation, and drew a conclusion about what that situation was
<Nephele>
waddlesplash: no you aren't. At this point you seem more like trying to win an argument
<waddlesplash>
what would you like me to try to do? lose an argument?
<waddlesplash>
I have a point, I think it is important you see this point, yes
<waddlesplash>
So I am making efforts to try and present this point in a way you will see it
capheind has quit [Quit: leaving]
<Nephele>
No, your point about "this is clearly a judgement" is nonse, and i won't agree on it, doubeling down will juse make me more unsympathetic. Please just stick to the actual example and show how it could be worded in a less "loaded" way, as you said
<waddlesplash>
what must I do to demonstrate that it isn't nonsense?
<waddlesplash>
I mean, what would prove that?
<waddlesplash>
and BTW, saying that a point I am trying to make is "clearly nonsense" implicitly claims that I believe something nonsensical. that's not really very positive either
<Nephele>
nothing. Our definitiions of these terms are clearly too dissisimilar to resolve in this argument
<waddlesplash>
well, that is a problem, because language needs to be held in common for people to communicate at all
<waddlesplash>
if people disagree about the meaning of words, especially such basic words as "judgement", we need to be able to resolve this somehow
diver1 has joined #haiku
diver has quit [Read error: No route to host]
<Nephele>
No, this is not a problem. And it is not something we need to discuss now, you are basically going down the philsophy of an inner mind model
<waddlesplash>
I don't need to know what is in your head, nor am I making claims about what is or should be in your head
<waddlesplash>
I am making claims about the messages you have written in public
<Nephele>
It does not matter how we disagree on the term judgement right now.
<Nephele>
Please provide an example of how the message could have been written in a less loaded way, and how you think it would have been perceived instead, if it was written that way
<waddlesplash>
well, I think it does, because if you go around making statements that are judgements, but claiming that you "aren't judging", then you will surely encounter trouble beyond just this community
<Nephele>
I think that would help much more
<Nephele>
Sure, maybe. Doesn't matter now.
<waddlesplash>
I fail to see how it doesn't
<Nephele>
Easy, I am not interested in debating the term judgement with you at this time.
<waddlesplash>
that doesn't mean it does not matter
<waddlesplash>
it just means you are not interested
<Nephele>
Why are you arguing about this?
<waddlesplash>
because I believe it to be important?
<waddlesplash>
why would I argue about anything?
<Nephele>
Yes, why argue about this? I said I don't wish to talk about the term now, so why argue against it? Can you simply respect that wish and move on to the next topic?
<waddlesplash>
I would rather just shelve this until you are ready to talk about the term than "move on to the next topic", because I honestly believe that basically all the other topics would be rapidly resolved with little discussion if we agreed about this
<Nephele>
I doubt it, I already have linquistic knowledge, and I already can talk about terms with people and come to a *shared* understanding. Your understanding that terms mean the same to everyone, everywhere is simply not a linquistic reality I will ever agree to
<waddlesplash>
where did I say or imply that?
<Nephele>
And it simply isn't what I'd need help with
_-Caleb-_ has left #haiku [#haiku]
<waddlesplash>
obviously people don't mean the same things by terms a lot of the time
<waddlesplash>
my point isn't that they do mean the same things, my point is that they *should*
<Nephele>
"ell, I think it does, because if you go around making statements that are judgements, but claiming that you "aren't judging", then you will surely encounter trouble beyond just this community [22:19] <nephele> I think that would help much more"
<waddlesplash>
if terms mean things too divergent then communication becomes impossible. hence, when disagreements about the meanings of words arise, it's important to try and resolve them
<Nephele>
This to me implies you believe there is an objective truth as to wether something can be described as beeing a judgement, and as such does not allow flexibility in it's definition
<waddlesplash>
or at least get to the point where everyone has understandings of the terms that overlap in all the important ways
_-Caleb-_ has joined #haiku
<waddlesplash>
I do believe there is an objective truth about whether an action, or a statement, is or contains a judgement or not, yes. Otherwise the terms are all meaninglessly relative and communication is forever hopeless. What's the basis for presuming we are communicating about anything at all then?
<PulkoMandy>
This is not about objective truth
<PulkoMandy>
It is merely about building a common understanding of things
<waddlesplash>
So we may be more or less right or wrong in our understanding but clearly there must be *some* reality which backs the meaning of the word "judgement". The same way that there is objective reality that backs the meaning of the word "tree".
<waddlesplash>
PulkoMandy: sure, I agree that it's about building a common understanding, but the common understanding can't come from nowhere. I mean, we could define words arbitrarily, sure, but in this case "judgement" seems to be something that's implicit in human behavior, it has a meaning independent of whatever think it means, on a psychological level
<Nephele>
waddlesplash: No, I don't think so. Words make sense only in a shared context. There is no universal context. I reckon almost all words I use have a slightly different definition to what you would use for your words
<PulkoMandy>
And that indeed starts with making sure we use the same words for the same things, and if not, this needs to be settled (by picking other words, maybe) before the discussion can make any progress
<waddlesplash>
PulkoMandy: +1
<waddlesplash>
nephele: You and I and everyone else surely has a slightly different understanding of the words, sure, but this doesn't mean they "mean different things"
<Nephele>
waddlesplash: "in this case "judgement" seems to be something that's implicit in human behavior" With this you have started to define what you think judgement is, ... but that is then your personal definition.
<waddlesplash>
A botanist will understand trees much better than I do. Nonetheless we mean the same thing when we say "tree"
<Nephele>
waddlesplash: no, but it means we will have contextes where we think we mean the same thing, but mean something else
<PulkoMandy>
waddlesplash: There is also possibly a bit of language barrier, which can easily lead to words being used in unusual ways. I think that's fine as lono as everyone agree on it
<waddlesplash>
PulkoMandy: yes, that's true
<waddlesplash>
nephele: Yes, and then it's important, when the discrepancy becomes known, to resolve it
<Nephele>
And for this, it does not matter. I've asked you to rewrite the sentence in a less loaded way as an example, I think that would much better than any discussion on the philosophy of how humans perceive their environment
<waddlesplash>
So that you can communicate properly
<PulkoMandy>
x512[m]: Thanks, I was going to ask but got distracted by IRC arguments. I will wait for vidrep's reply to see if that fixes his problem, and adjust the patch to change only x86 then
juanjo has joined #haiku
<waddlesplash>
nephele: "personal definition": no I don't think so. I see that humans use this word in common ways even if none of them have read the dictionary definition. And they are using it to describe a behavior that all humans since the dawn of written history have done. So, I think it should be safe to say, that there really is such a thing as "judgement", independent of whatever any human knows or understands it to be
<waddlesplash>
And then the question is whether we can define what that thing is
<waddlesplash>
or whether it's too abstract or elusive to do so
<phschafft>
nephele: ich bin frei.
<waddlesplash>
We don't need to be expert philosophers of language in order to make observations such as this
<Nephele>
There may be a *concept* of what you use the word judgement for, sure. But that does not mean that the term means this, or the same ting
<waddlesplash>
yes, my concept/understanding of the word "judgement" may be wrong, sure
<waddlesplash>
but I believe there really is such a thing as "judgement" even if my definition/concept/understanding does not capture it
<PulkoMandy>
There is no right or wrong I think. As long as two persons can agree on the concept, they can have a conversation without misunderstandings, and I think that will be enough
<Nephele>
I agree
* phschafft
notices the text wall and steps back.
<Nephele>
phschafft: I forgot if you had a specific thing to talk about, I can boot my debian though
<phschafft>
nephele: your OSM question, and maybe some genral status.
<Nephele>
okay
<waddlesplash>
PulkoMandy: well, if I think a tree is really a whale, I think it can be safely said I am "wrong" about this. I am speaking English, and English does not use "tree" to mean "whale"
<Nephele>
Lol
<waddlesplash>
How far that principle goes is a question, sure. But I think it is pretty clear that people can use words "wrongly" in that technical sense
<Nephele>
waddlesplash: if you go into specific cities, in germany, for example and order "Pfannkuchen" you will receive completely different foods
<Nephele>
Language matters *only* in context
<waddlesplash>
sure
<waddlesplash>
but the fact is, if I am in a context where everyone thinks a word means one thing but I claim it means something else, then I am "wrong"
<Nephele>
pluto suddently stopped beeing a planet
<PulkoMandy>
waddlesplash: I don't disagree, but I think it is irrelevant. If I am in a group of people that insist on calling trees "whales", I can adjust to it and still communicate with them
<Nephele>
some people still call pluto a planet
<waddlesplash>
PulkoMandy: makes sense, yes
<waddlesplash>
nephele: yes, because there is a difference between the scientific definition of "planet" and the common one
<waddlesplash>
it's the same as with tomatoes: scientifically they are fruit. but everyone still calls them a "vegetable"
<Nephele>
waddlesplash: that is basically the gist of it though. It does not matter what you think the dictionary sais, you need to be aware of how people understand this. and how they perceive their language
<waddlesplash>
it's because there is a difference between the scientific definitions of "fruit" and "vegetable" and the *culinary* definitions of those words
<Nephele>
which brings us back to the sentence, clearly I communicated something I did not intend to. Please show how this could have been avoided
<waddlesplash>
nephele: Yes, well, and that was what I was trying to do
<Nephele>
by example please
<waddlesplash>
I was trying to demonstrate not merely the particular thing you communicated and din't intend to
<PulkoMandy>
nephele: on the other hand, a dictionnaryeis a good tool to help sharing a common meaning of words
<Nephele>
PulkoMandy: indeed
erysdren has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
<waddlesplash>
I was trying to demonstrate the general phenomenon which your message fell into
_-Caleb-_ has left #haiku [#haiku]
<waddlesplash>
a much broader thing to understand than the mere specific point, but a much more useful one, I think
<Nephele>
I'd rather you start by example than generalizing it, that helps my war of learning much more
<waddlesplash>
but I guess this might've been an unproductive approach to take on my part
<PulkoMandy>
It may not always go into enough details for a very specific discussion. Now I don't know if we need a discussion that specific here in this one case
<phschafft>
knowledge is to know a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is to know it still doesn't belong in fruit salad.
<x512[m]>
> wisdom is to know it still doesn't belong in fruit salad.
_-Caleb-_ has joined #haiku
<PulkoMandy>
and creativity is making a good fruit salad that includes tomatoes :)
<Nephele>
phschafft: ready
<x512[m]>
Tomato salad fans will disagree (I am not one of them).
<waddlesplash>
tomato salad is not fruit salad!
<waddlesplash>
tomato salad is delicious, fruit salad is delicious, but they are not the same
<Habbie>
i found myself discussing with the teenager over dinner whether sambal is a jam
<Habbie>
my wife: ok but it is not fruit based
<waddlesplash>
PulkoMandy: mm, let me know if you find a recipe for that, sound interesting :D
<Habbie>
me: well, akshually
<phschafft>
x512[m]: but that is a specific type, not a fruit salad.
<Habbie>
i think i sold "thick smoothie" quite well
<arraybolt3>
Tomatoes in a fruit salad sounds amazing.
diver has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<OscarL>
lol, closing and reopeing the screen lid sends the power_daemon to 100% on one core.
<OscarL>
I *think* I've seen this one before. I should test on the older netboot.
<OscarL>
(at least seems easily repeatable)
<OscarL>
acpi_ac driver working well.
Coldfirex has joined #haiku
<OscarL>
idualwifi7260 has been able to connect way more reliably than ever before (even after the last round of driver updates). Wonder if the openssl update helped there, as I was getting "wrong password" type of errors before.
SLema has quit [Remote host closed the connection]