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<bl4ze>
hey guys, quick question, for which specific reason do people use haiku?
<OscarL>
comments on commits not showing on Github while logged in... they load right away in "incognito mode" :-D
<OscarL>
bl4ze: I really was blown away by BeOS back in late 2000. Used BeOS as my main OS for several years, watched OpenTracker appear, then OpenBeOS (and its name change to Haiku)...
<OscarL>
been running Haiku on bare-metal since before it had any graphics at all...
<OscarL>
Now it rounds circles around BeOS IMO (even with all the missing features, and bugs, and things that I didn't even liked in BeOS days)...
<OscarL>
so, while I can't use it as my main OS... very few are the days I don't run it for at least some few hours.
<bl4ze>
Woahh
<OscarL>
bl4ze: for me... it is a much simpler system than the rest. More cohesively put. *you* are in charge of what is going on your system.
<OscarL>
also...
<OscarL>
the barrier to entry to become a contributor is WAY, WAY low...
<OscarL>
even *I* managed to land even drivers in it... go figure :-D
<bl4ze>
yess, I can see that it
<bl4ze>
ahh i cant delete msgs on irc right?
<OscarL>
you cannot :-)
<OscarL>
and this channel is logged, so...
<OscarL>
don't say anything you'll regret in the morning :-P
<bl4ze>
yess, I can see that it's very welcoming. It is also a very active community.
<bl4ze>
(is what i meant to say)
<OscarL>
even before my first "open source" contributions back in 2003, (IIRC), I was blown away by how easy was to implement things like a custom input_server filter.
<OscarL>
(on BeOS at the time)
<OscarL>
I am NOT a good programmer... and even I could do it.
<bl4ze>
OH PLEASE.
<OscarL>
bl4ze: I "grew up" reading OpenBeOS/Haiku commit message logs / mailing lists/ RSS feeds... I learned a lot, and I'm sure I would not own my house if I had not applied what I've learned from that in the years I was actively working in the software field.
<bl4ze>
But I wonder what drives this community to be so active. What I mean is that are there still a lot of users using haiku?
<bl4ze>
That is so cool!
<OscarL>
(still, really... I DO SUCK at programming, and that's OK... not everyone is at the level of folks like AxelD, mmlr, PulkoMandy, kallisti5[m], waddlesplash, etc., etc.)
<OscarL>
bl4ze: people love Haiku for different reasons...
<OscarL>
for some, it just because nostalgia... it remnindeds them of simpler times...
<kallisti5[m]>
I'm not a good programmer lol. I stand on the shoulders of giants
<OscarL>
bl4ze: others just love the aesthetics... (big kudos to "stippy" there!)
<OscarL>
kallisti5[m]: and I stand on the shoulders of the fly that stand on the shoulders of the cat that stand on your shoulders then! :-D
<bl4ze>
I do get the nostalgia even though I didnt have such childhood :)
<bl4ze>
I can only imagine
<kallisti5[m]>
I was never lucky enough to use beos in the day. I found it as be, inc was on its way out
<kallisti5[m]>
I admired it compared to Linux.. posix with a coherent design
<OscarL>
bl4ze: other people love it because it still "works so fast" even on pretty decrepit hardware (as long as you don't want to play youtube videos from a browser... or use any heavy "modern" website, really :-D).
<kallisti5[m]>
Then, my moment of Zen struck when I installed Haiku on an old Dell desktop. I tried streaming Internet radio... And it worked. Turns out the mini desktop had a speaker in it I wasn't aware of.
<OscarL>
bl4ze: and that's even with Haiku having basically zero hardware accel. And being really slow compared to other systems sometimes in specific task (it is far from being "optimized"... it is just in beta phase after all)
<kallisti5[m]>
Everything kinda clicked and I went.. holy shit I want to help make this even more awesome
<kallisti5[m]>
Then Ryan talked me into working on the radeon_hd driver
<bl4ze>
Soo coool!
<OscarL>
to add to what kallisti5[m] said... "holy hell, this is feels/looks great.. and even *I* can help make it better? Sign me in!!!!
<bl4ze>
Also would you recommend reading the book "Programming the BeOS"??
<kallisti5[m]>
Lol. Pretty much
<kallisti5[m]>
bl4ze: It's still a relevant read
<kallisti5[m]>
Our API has additions, but overall is compatible
<kallisti5[m]>
Just don't read the network section. It's probably R4
<OscarL>
kallisti5[m]: imagine my face when x512[m] let me know he was using (even if for just simple convenience) the silly /dev/misc/poke driver I wrote *way* too long ago :-D
<bl4ze>
R4???
<kallisti5[m]>
Beos has an old network stack, and a new one
<kallisti5[m]>
The new network stack got introduced after that book came out o think
<kallisti5[m]>
*I think
<kallisti5[m]>
Waddlesplash would probably know
<bl4ze>
Ohh, what does the [m] stand for by the way?
<OscarL>
users accesing this IRC channel via a "matrix" bridge.
<kallisti5[m]>
Matrix. I'm on a matrix to irc bridge
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<kallisti5[m]>
And typing this from my phone. I'm out of town traveling
<OscarL>
bl4ze: ther's also "The BeOS Bible" book by Scott Hacker if you can find the PDFs somewhere, albeit that's more from a user point of view. As Haiku strives for BeOS R5 compatibility, most of it should be still be pretty relevant.
<bl4ze>
I'll check it out. Thanks!
<OscarL>
(the concepts, if not the actuall GUI dialogs)
<kallisti5[m]>
Haikus gui is a lot better 😅
<OscarL>
+10
<kallisti5[m]>
Most of the crusty stuff was gently refactored
<kallisti5[m]>
The network preference app needs work still I think though
<OscarL>
and "SpicyKeys", err "Shortcuts" does merit a make over that tries to keep intuitiveness in mind :-)
<kallisti5[m]>
Anyway. I'm old now, so are a lot of the other people who have been around for a while.
<kallisti5[m]>
Haiku needs young blood 🧛. Install Haiku at your local community college today.
<OscarL>
bl4ze: use it, love it, hate it, help it, love it even more.
<bl4ze>
Lmao, I will for sure!
<OscarL>
I was... "this can be real"... when the BeOS "gogo no-coda" mp3 encoder finished files 10 times faster than the fastest encoder we had for Win/DOS in 2000... on an AMD K5 at 100 MHz... with 16 MB of RAM...
<OscarL>
(not sure what kallisti5[m] means by we getting old... wait... can see it now :-P)
<kallisti5[m]>
Lol
<OscarL>
bl4ze: of course, later on, other mp3 encoders (mainly lame) started to make use of some of the ASM tricks "gogo no-coda" used... still, the impression it made (among "crazy stuff" that was normal in BeOS but unheard off on other systems) was indeed ever lasting.
<OscarL>
like... "what the hell!?!?! I just moved this HDD to a totally completelly utterly different PC and BeOS booted without skiping a beat, and in just the same x amount of seconds?"
<OscarL>
"what kind of sorcery is this?"
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<OscarL>
at the time, on Win95, moving the HDD to a different disk ment you either had to re-install it, or know the trick of deleting a specific file to trigger the "lets recheck/reinstall all the drivers".
<OscarL>
heck... even modern Linux soils the bed every time you do something mildly "off-road" from what it expects.
<bl4ze>
lmaoo
<OscarL>
bl4ze: TL;DR version... it is just fun, and has been mostly fun for 2 decades for many of us. Few things last that long, let along still bringing you any form of joy :-)
<bl4ze>
Looking forward:))
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* OscarL
had to copy/paste "🧛" into a different app, and set zoom to 700% to finally figure out what kallisti5[m] ment by it :-P (monochrome emojis are even harder to "read").
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<bl4ze2>
I have a dumb question
<bl4ze2>
can i run haiku in a vm? and in order to make a program, i'll have to do that on haiku as well right? I am a bit confused
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<jezek2>
as for compilation, it's possible to cross-compile from other systems but it's more complicated than just using haiku itself
<OscarL>
bl4ze: qemu, vmware, virtualbox... all work for running Haiku. And as jezek2 said, while cross-compilation is an option, at least I, find it far easier to just use Haiku on a VM, and program/compile/debug that way.
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<OscarL>
also... makes you actually use the system... you know... dog-fooding... will help you appreciated what the OS does right, and what can be improved.
<OscarL>
if you run Linux, using QEMU should provide the best speed. On Windows, WMware should be the fastest. I personally use VirtualBox, for some particular requirements I have.
<OscarL>
folks here or on the forum will help you out get the most our of any option you end up using.
<bl4ze>
yeah i do use linux, i was getting VMware, but I'll try qemu too
<OscarL>
haven't tested VMWare on Linux, so I can't help there. QEMU might be scary at first, but once you find a suitable command line you can put in a .sh script... hard to beat.
<bl4ze>
most of the issues in looking at are very old, 10-12 years old, which makes me think no one was able to solve them in years. i will never be able to lmao
<bl4ze>
*issues I'm looking
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<OscarL>
some bugs remains for years just because developers time is pretty limited...
<OscarL>
and they smarter devs focus on the more complicated stuff.
<bl4ze>
hmmm, understandable
<OscarL>
so don't be discouraged just by the age of certain bugs/enhancements.
<OscarL>
some stuff only affects a small portion of users... heck even I fixed some pretty obsure/edge cases in some drivers...
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<OscarL>
just because probably nobody noticed them before :-D
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<OscarL>
just keep in mind that even the smallest contibutions count, and the more you enjoy the journey, the more you'll likely to learn and take away from the experience (and the more motivation it will give you to contribute even more :-D)
<bl4ze>
Thanks! For now I find a lot of these issues kinda intimidating honestly. But after reading just the first chapter of the "programming the beos" i feel a little bit comfortable with the naming convention and stuff
<OscarL>
welp... jumping straight to "let's see what can I fix or implement on this X system I don't really know"... does sounds intimidating, regardless of what X system that might be :-P
<OscarL>
thus why familiarizing yourself with the OS (by using it, no matter if via a VM, or whatever)... and doing the reading you're doing... will be of great help.
<jezek2>
OscarL: as long as the contributions are not for Linux then yeah, in Linux I tried to improve things and the reaction was just total ignoration despite users liking it
<jezek2>
I still use the thing so it wasn't entirelly wasted effort :)
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<OscarL>
Welp, depending on the topic, certain contributions/changes can be really be pushed against on Haiku too. But yeah... bigger projects tends to be harder to "break into". Their loss! :-P
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<Begasus>
morning peeps
<OscarL>
Buenos días Begasus :-)
<Begasus[m]>
Goede morgen OscarL :)
<Begasus>
k, let's try to prepare some clisp recipe :)
<BiPolar>
Some progress, but still unable to properly load the microcode patch that should be there for my CPU. Oh well... added info to the ticket at least :-)
<BiPolar>
Anyway... time to get some sleep. Have a good day Begasus!
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<Begasus>
bugger TL
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<nephele>
Those spammers are obnoxious, keep trying again and again
<nephele>
should autoflag posts that use more than two "thinking emojis"
<Begasus[m]>
already made their way to some matrix rooms :)
<matthewcroughan>
I got on the flight to Berlin to attend NixCon (which is about NixOS, not Richard Nixon), and I needed reading material. So I looked hard for a single manual for reading material, but couldn't find much in the way of "what haiku is conceptually", etc in time for liftoff. Mostly code docs. But I stumbled upon your IRC logs, and I think they're beautiful. You mentioned you need fresh young blood, so here I am 🧛
<matthewcroughan>
Some really great stories in the past 24 hrs of logs. And I think those are the greatest introduction to Haiku.
<nephele>
Begasus[m]: yeah. On the forums this is a similar "way" each time. Posting a long post asking random questions and then adding links to some "training" courses in there
<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] ca9854451dd3 - TextControl: Make background of invalid control red
<nephele>
that's humdiners request taken care of :)
<nephele>
humdingers*
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<Begasus[m]>
one down :)
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<nephele>
Hmm, i accepted a translation and now pottle complains about "Escape" not sure what it means :(
<Begasus>
that's one for humdinger :)
<Begasus>
can't get the fnckn tests to run for clisp with haikuporter ...
<nephele>
Covid is back in the house. I'm very excitied. bleh
<Begasus>
heh, picked up 2 tests also here this morning
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<nephele>
Begasus: oof
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<nephele>
might get one for myself too
<nephele>
though nowadays there is already medicin against covid (after infection)
<Begasus>
didn't take anything so far, seeing the time of year it's not suprising everyone is caughing :)
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<nephele>
Once I used to play a video game and there was a virtual epidemic, with users infecting servers, and servers infecting users. And it causing people to keep spamming "*cough*" in chat
<nephele>
in some ways, kind of similar to how now everyone is coughing xD
<Begasus>
heh
<nephele>
i joined a server, saw that, joined singleplayer, assumed i've been hacked. cleaned my client, played on another server (no problems) and then another dude got permanently banned when joining that server for hacking... Had to argue with the admin back then that it really wasn't his fault
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<Anarchos>
hello !!
<nephele>
hi Anarchos
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<Begasus[m]>
Hi Anarchos :)
<Anarchos>
Begasus[m]: i can't understand the kernel code about context switch for x86_32 :/
<Anarchos>
though it is clear for x86_64
<Begasus[m]>
Anarchos I can't understand any kernel code :)
<Monni>
Need more coffee... gave up with context switching in kernel and started doing it in userland...
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<Anarchos>
Monni: ?
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<nephele>
Begasus[m]: that's only because you haven't looked at it
<nephele>
it's not magic :)
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<Begasus>
lol
<Begasus>
maybe nephele, and maybe I could understand a few lines in it, that's as far as it would go though :P
<Monni>
context switching is pretty much saving and restoring registers in correct order... knowing which register gets overwritten during the saving, so it needs to be saved first...
<Begasus>
if this was for me Monni, for the manpage it used $dataDir first which is wrong, so not the order that counted :)
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<Monni>
Begasus: variables are like registers... You can either store or load the correct or incorrect contents...
<Begasus>
yeah, contents in this case being the paths
<matthewcroughan>
I was meaning to ask you guys, what do you think about mobile computing and how it should be done, and if there are any haiku/be ideas about this?
<Begasus>
past the age of mobile computing, so I'm not the one to ask :)
<matthewcroughan>
Sure, but you have a phone right?
<Begasus>
and it's used a one
<matthewcroughan>
Of course, me too, but you surely are forced to run Android right?
<Begasus>
no one is forcing me to do/use anything :P
<matthewcroughan>
I can run Linux on a phone, but curious about how Haiku would attempt to touch mobile computing, if at all
<Begasus>
you should visit the forum
<Begasus>
some talks have been made already "talks"
<Begasus>
not the priority of the developers
<phschafft>
I think that Android is as close to Haiku as any other Linux based system ever got.
<nephele>
both have /system ;)
<nephele>
matthewcroughan: probably not great, haiku on a phone anyhow
<nephele>
unless you do an extensive port
<matthewcroughan>
I really ask more about the concepts and not implementation
<phschafft>
nephele: many of the basic concepts are very similar. they surely needed to adapt a lot to the different input devices. and some ideas just got a fresh look after so many years.
<phschafft>
but it's still very close.
<Begasus>
plenty of concepts/mockups on the forum I guess :)
<nephele>
matthewcroughan: haiku does not care about mobile form factors, the UI of all native apps is ill-suited to it. Haiku really just wants to be a good desktop OS
<Begasus>
yeah!
<matthewcroughan>
It is obvious how the haiku concepts make a better intuitive computing experience on a desktop or laptop, and it obviously has that comfy vibe that I can't look away from and learn more about. But I also know that mobile is completely different, and if it was ever tackled or talked about.
<nephele>
while you could certainly adapt the API or technology for it you'd loose almost all applications. Basically writing most of userland again or intensively porting it
* Begasus
fires up some KDE apps ...
<matthewcroughan>
Ah that about answers it naphele
<nephele>
i did have a forum thread about that too. My personal belief is that, if this ever comes to fruition. it would be a different OS... like an iOS to the MacOS ;)
<phschafft>
Begasus: do they still run on coal and steam?
<Begasus>
And the price of on Android nephele? ;)
<nephele>
Begasus: ?
<Begasus>
pretty much so phschafft :)
<Begasus>
nephele -> like an iOS to the MacOS :)
<phschafft>
Begasus: I mean, plasma is like... very hot steam?
<nephele>
I'm not sure what you are asking begasus
<nephele>
there is no equivalent for android, there is no adjacent desktop OS
<nephele>
matthewcroughan: but if you are interested in making a phone project on efl, could do that :P
<Begasus>
if*
<Begasus>
phschafft, not running any linux's here (aside from that Debian install on one of the laptops)
<Begasus>
and that doesn't run on plasma :)
<Begasus>
oh man!!! plasma as in lave* :D lol
<Begasus>
lava* bugger ...
<nephele>
phschafft: is the plasma state dependant on pressure too?
<Begasus>
I better stick to the recipes :D
<phschafft>
nephele: depends.
<Begasus[m]>
back to windows ...
<phschafft>
but I mean, nowadays I would go with solid state plasma.
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<Begasus>
k, 32bit clisp also build :D
<HaikuUser>
Somebody know how I can run a Python script in Genio?
<Begasus>
not me
<Begasus>
can't you run it from Terminal?
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<HaikuUser>
yes I can run from the Terminal, but it seems there is a build-in Console I/O subwindow within Genio.
* Anarchos
never used Genio, only vim or Pe
<HaikuUser>
I don't know where to set the location of Python executable. The Project -> Run target is gray.
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<HaikuUser>
Maybe I will figure that out later. With dependencies it's a big app, I would rather use some simpler editor if I would like to run-test the code from Terminal.
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<Anarchos>
Begasus: the top toolbar with icons is a bit too much tall for me
<Begasus>
It's the default Anarchos, didn't check if it can be changed :)
<Anarchos>
Begasus: i will check the log to see if someone answered my question about x86 32/64bits context_switch
<Anarchos>
nope. I will turn it into a discuss.haiku-os.org question.
<Begasus[m]>
what switch Anarchos?
<Begasus[m]>
nephele forums wants me to silense :P
<nephele>
wdym?
<nephele>
something i should look at?
<Begasus[m]>
nah :D
<Begasus[m]>
replied too much on that clisp topic, gave me a mention in the preview box I should give others a change to reply :P
<nephele>
that's just a warning, you can ignore it. I won't ban you for beeing too helpfull ;)
<Begasus[m]>
I know ;) still though it was funny :)
<Begasus[m]>
Once I'm on a roll ... :P
<Anarchos>
Begasus[m]: the context switch in kernel
<Begasus>
ah ... no good there :)
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<Anarchos>
Begasus: when the kernel scheduler decides to change the current thread to another one , it has to change the instruction pointer to new code, and change all the memory register to those associated with the new process. And it also has to save those registers for the old thread.
<Anarchos>
Begasus: if that makes sense to you
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<Begasus>
was lost here "kernel scheduler" already Anarchos :D
<Begasus>
hi cocobean
<cocobean>
Howdy
<Anarchos>
Begasus: the part of the system which decides what the processor must do, taking account priority of tasks.
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<Begasus>
In my case boot the system from the pendrive! :)
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<Begasus[m]>
heading out, cu peeps!
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<OscarL>
I really need a way to stop "Open with..." from picking up binaries from under haiku/generated/* :-/
<OscarL>
or listing apps from a mounted 32 bits install, when I'm runnign 64 bits.
<OscarL>
Skipp_OSX: should such filtering be done at registrar level, or Tracker's?
* phschafft
hmms at OscarL.
* OscarL
"Mmm Mmm Mmm Mmm"s back at phschafft (Crash Test Dummies ref)
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<HaikuUser>
hello all
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<phschafft>
haha.
<phschafft>
it's a good song.
<OscarL>
indeed :-)
<phschafft>
I was thinking about checking that the files can be executed before listening them.
<OscarL>
phschafft: and the Weird Al's parody makes it even better :-)
<phschafft>
however it's a bit tricky, plus a performance thing.
<nephele>
OscarL: last time i asked about this it was "working as intended" *shrug*
<OscarL>
Yeah. AFAIK, Tracker just asks registrar in this case.. and registrar only cares about apps signatures, and supported filetypes... but there's no metadata there about supported archs.
<OscarL>
nephele: welp... it clearly sucks balls.
<OscarL>
so much so, that even I will attempt to workaround it on my own.
<nephele>
what do you mean by supported archs?
<nephele>
it does the same if its the same tree
<OscarL>
what's the point of showing apps from 32 bits on a 64 bits haiku install?
<nephele>
i have like three copies of each app listed
* Anarchos
attempts to build a recent nightly image to netboot it
<nephele>
the problem isn't those beeing listed as such, but that they list from dev trees i think
<OscarL>
(or viceversa).
<OscarL>
nephele: I get both cases.
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<OscarL>
I do have 32 and 64 installs on the same HDD, that I use on bare-metal and VMs...
<OscarL>
another thing that should NEVER make it into the "Open with..." menu...
<OscarL>
chroots when building stuff with HaikuPorter.
<OscarL>
not only pollute that menu... if you open it while building stuff... the build won't finish properly (because haikuporter will fail to unmount the chroot)
<OscarL>
for me... having a registrar setting somewhere that allows for "exclude these paths patterns", should be enough.
<nephele>
chroots definetely. I would argue that a chroot should have a seperate register all together
<nephele>
technically a chroot is just a fs thing, but the intenion here is really "make a sub-haiku here"
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<nephele>
so something similar to namespaces essentially
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* Anarchos
is back
<Anarchos>
i encounter the 'zstd.h no such file or directory'
<nephele>
Anarchos: when building haiku?
<nephele>
pkgman install devel:libzstd
<Anarchos>
'already installed'
<Anarchos>
nephele found : my buildtools weren't up to date
<nephele>
ah okay
<Anarchos>
nephele well it just download only 4 btrev for buildtools :/ i hope it will suffice
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<Anarchos>
nephele it was enough :)
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<OscarL>
sweet baby jebus... you think... I gonna just update this tiny python package... and the number of things you need to check/consider just explodes :-(
<botifico>
[haikuports/haikuports] korli 716850e - yt-dlp: bump version
<phschafft>
nephele: the problem is that the chroot is a per process property, generally speaking. so any other process should not be aware of what is going on.
<phschafft>
if you want a sub-system that is more than a chroot, then there should be a tool, that sets up things. which may include telling random other parts of the system to exclude something.
<scantysnax>
anyone around that can tell me why i can't mount fat partitions read/write?
<phschafft>
scantysnax: what's the error?
<nephele>
phschafft: yeah
<phschafft>
(and I think such a tools would generally be a good thing. I mean it could be really useful for stuff like building and testing)
<OscarL>
scantysnax: if you're on beta5... because the new FAT driver had some limitations that only got lifted on nightlies.
<scantysnax>
OscarL, oh I see
<scantysnax>
I guess that would explain it?
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<scantysnax>
it takes a few minutes to mount my USB HDD still read only.
<OscarL>
scantysnax: seems the driver author wasn't keen on enabling R/W support for FAT partitions larger than the ones he personally tested.
<OscarL>
and yes.. new driver is quite slow at mounting.
<OscarL>
and has some issues with the drive icons too.
<OscarL>
and marks all files as executables.
<nephele>
phschafft: ideally haikuporter would also mount it's dependencies in such a thing locally
<OscarL>
but hey... at least it now handles dates properly :-D
<nephele>
without having to involve the system mounts at all
<scantysnax>
oh really?
<scantysnax>
dates were always funny
<OscarL>
old fat driver was known to use dates in year 1873 or the like :-)
<scantysnax>
like 1800s
<scantysnax>
is this new FAT thing going to be released as an upgrade?
<PulkoMandy>
It's in beta5 already
<OscarL>
as in further fixex being backported to beta5? if they haven't yet... I doubt it.
<scantysnax>
most of the dates look good, stil no r/w support, though.
<OscarL>
but maybe if enough users "complian" about it...
<phschafft>
nephele: I mean the point of such a tool would be to do those mountings for you, at least the base ones. plus with how stuff works you may just need to provide it a list of what you want and have it set up.
<nephele>
Well, mounting and ideally other stuff too. could build upon that later with nw isolation etc...
* OscarL
pauses haikuports cleanup tasks, to test korli's amd microcode patch.
<nephele>
could call it "jail" ;)
<phschafft>
OscarL: what exactly do you mean by 'and marks all files as executables.'?
<phschafft>
nephele: call it jail if you want. just don't call it namespaces.
<PulkoMandy>
Fat doesn't have a "executable" permission stored on disk, so the driver just tell the os that everything is executable
<phschafft>
(specifically as it is technically much closer to a jail than namesapces)
<OscarL>
you copy any file from a fat drive to say... Desktop.. double click on it (say it is a text file)... Tracker complains that the file is marked as executable... "do you want to fix it?"
<OscarL>
phschafft: ^
<phschafft>
PulkoMandy: that is what I was asking for basically. I wanted to know if he means setting +x in the file mode.
<nephele>
phschafft: ? are there any major technical differences between jail and namespaces conceptually?
<phschafft>
it can just be used for the same things. but namespaces have a ton more different usecases they cover than jails.
<nephele>
from what i've seen they seem quite similar. But that sounds like a discussion we can have at a later time via voice, seems a big big to discuss over text ;)
<phschafft>
nephele: it's really a big difference and just from that an efficient media is a good idea.
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<phschafft>
OscarL: as PulkoMandy stated. the problem is that you need to come up with something as a filler for what is not supported by FAT. Linux seem sto have two modes for that. basically the same as Haiku does, or a slightly smarter mode which might still be totally off (just into the other direction).
<phschafft>
I feel like this is a problem that cannot be solved.
<nephele>
Tracker should be aware of this problem and decide on it's own if *while copying* adding a +x makes sense
<OscarL>
phschafft: whatever the technical reason... I'm seeing it from the user perspetive.
<phschafft>
PulkoMandy: do you happen to know the reason for the slow mount? is it calculating the free block list or similar?
<OscarL>
pretty sure that defaulting to no-executables from FAT/NTFS is a better option.
<phschafft>
OscarL: yes, that is why I keep hinting towards that Linux mode that is smarter. ;)
<scantysnax>
can't boot to a a desktop if the drive is connected, also.
<phschafft>
but in the end the only solution is to use a tool that handles the task. and FAT hardly handles the task in 2024.
<nephele>
does exfat do this properly?
<nephele>
my only reason to have a drive formatted specifically with mbr partition table and one fat32 partition is one printer that cant scan to the drive otherwise...
<phschafft>
nephele: which is more into the direction of skipping the file mode completly for figuring out if something is an executable. which however means there needs to be a replacement logic.
<OscarL>
practicality beats purity. Bolt on a list of extensions that are to be considered "executable" on filesystems that do not support proper attributes.
<nephele>
well, tracker already has some ideas if it thinks somethign should *not* be executable
<nephele>
which is the thing oscarl was annoyed about
<phschafft>
if you come up with one, feel free to tell it to more. I'm not a fan of the classic file modes.
<OscarL>
I mean.. even BeOS had "mimetypes" on FAT.
<OscarL>
by using extensions.
<phschafft>
OscarL: that is exactly what the Linux mode does.
<nephele>
phschafft: in what way are you talking? Just in generall going away from the 666 bits?
<phschafft>
> If set, the execute permission bits of the file will be allowed only if the extension part of the name is .EXE, .COM, or .BAT. Not set by default.
* OscarL
goes back to testging microcode.
<phschafft>
nephele: if you want to have a system that works on filesystems with and without file modes, then you need some rule that is a superset of both.
<phschafft>
and as we already found in this discussion, the rule should not be 'just assume everything can be executed'.
<PulkoMandy>
phschafft: I didn't look at the driver but the person who ported the freebsd driver is working on fixesand improvements. From what I saw on irc (I don't read it all, and unfortunately people absolutely gave up on mailing lists now), it may require improvements in the block cache
<phschafft>
PulkoMandy: hm, I see.
<PulkoMandy>
And regarding the permissions: what did the old driver do? Surely we can restore that
<phschafft>
PulkoMandy: I must say I'm always confused how fast the linux driver is, given the on-disk structure. but if you do FAT without good RAM backing it will get worse.
<phschafft>
OscarL: the question is if the mime sniffer can be fixed for FAT. in that case it could be used (and updated to include stuff like .BAT) to figure it out on all filesystems without modes.
* OscarL
wonders if placing "kernel_x86_64" under /boot/system/non-packaged/ works for booting a custom kernel. Mmmm.
<phschafft>
so maybe in a future the driver could just say 'no modes here, kernel do the magic!'.
<nephele>
the mime sniffer on fat currently is quite awfull. since it can't write MIME onto the FS tracker never gets this info
<nephele>
so you cant open files in the right apps per default
<phschafft>
nephele: that is what I mean with fixing it.
<nephele>
my "personal" fix would just be keeping that data in RAM, not writing it to disk
<phschafft>
like... having an in-memory cache for the results on FS' that don't support it.
<phschafft>
I must say it's refeshing to be on the same side as you, nephele and OscarL, at this ;)
<OscarL>
phschafft: a general "mimetype overlay for dumb(er) file-systems", that takes into account the extensions added on FileTypes, would be nice.
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<phschafft>
OscarL: yes. the more it is generic the better it is. think about other filesystem that may have similar constrains.
<phschafft>
anyway. I need to get to clean up the kitchen and get it ready for T&K.
<OscarL>
also, would allow for proper icons
<OscarL>
that's what I remember BeOS did... back when... it had proper icons for known extensions, on FAT drives.
<phschafft>
also, just add support for "EA DATA. SF" on fat! ;)
<phschafft>
(which is support for file types, application matching, icons, and more)
<phschafft>
(basically it's full extended attribues for FAT)
* OscarL
really, really needs to switch to the new SSD drive... and look into using ccache.
<nephele>
i broke off the screw holder for my m2 drive on my mb
<OscarL>
is jam always this "dumb" ? I just switched branches (only one line diff in one file).... it is rebuilding 11200+ targets.
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<nephele>
jam is not very smart
<nephele>
that's why ham is supposed to replace it
<OscarL>
welp... guess I need to wait a full hour then. Sigh
<nephele>
:(
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<Anarchos>
OscarL i never take time to learn to use ccache
<nephele>
basically just install it
* Anarchos
watches withc caution the 'just basically' part ...
<nephele>
really... just install it, then before your build tell it to use it with CC=ccache CXX=cccache
<phschafft>
how does it detect the change?
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<phschafft>
I mean make's rules are very dumb and it has very good results.
<nephele>
ccache also for CXX, not cccache
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<Anarchos>
nephele CC=ccache ./configure.... =>> doesn't work well for me
<nephele>
just for jam, not to configure.
<Anarchos>
ok
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<PulkoMandy>
We already have an attribute_overlay filesystem somewhere (used for iso9660 booting a long time ago)
<PulkoMandy>
Maybe fat could use it as well
<PulkoMandy>
Or maybe there is some os/2 extension of it that actually allows to write attributes
<OscarL>
/bin/package is preeety slow when creating "big" .hpkg files (haiku.hkpg in this case). I guess there's no way of making it use more than one thread when compressing stuff?
<nephele>
it compresses in chunks, so i guess not that easily? maybe it could if we allow some potential holes in the format
<OscarL>
real 60m7.176s :-(
<Anarchos>
OscarL 7.176s too much :)
<OscarL>
:-D
<OscarL>
Time to reboot in bare-metal to test changes... I'll be back! (I hope :-P)
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<nephele>
optimistic i see
<Anarchos>
nephele :)
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<BiPolar>
no luck with my custom build.
<BiPolar>
lets see if the "official" test build gives a different result.
<BiPolar>
(couldn't even boot, lol :-D)
<BiPolar>
waddlesplash thanks for the change on the HDA spam... albeit now I'm getting LOTS of: KERN: Last message repeated 169789 times.
<BiPolar>
even getting "Last message repeated 3 times" after some of those, LOL.
<BiPolar>
I should just blacklist hda at this point.
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<PulkoMandy>
nephele: Why would there be holes? The chunks are chunked by decompressed size, so you can split the file in chunks, compress each chunk separately (in several threads) and then concatenate the result?
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<nephele>
PulkoMandy: If a file has a size that does not match this chunksize you can't assume you can start with the next file in parralel from the start, you would have to have an offset of the file start and the end of the previous file
<nephele>
but yes, what you suggest with one thread only doing the chunking should work then
<BiPolar>
had to "disable" the microcode (by renaming it) to be able to boot :-( No icons lit, no onscreen output.
<BiPolar>
microcode loading is disabled if an hypervisor is detected, right?
<BiPolar>
I ask because... I could try disabling that check... in order to be able to capture serial debug output from a VM.
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<phschafft>
Anarchos: ./configure CC=ccache
<phschafft>
for configure the variables need to be *after* the command, *not* before.
<nephele>
huh?
<nephele>
that sounds terrible
<phschafft>
autofoo generated configure ignores random host variables (to make sure it's all the same cross compile or not) but accepts additional ones via the command line.
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<phschafft>
nephele: it is one of those things it does to counter strange systems doing strange things.
<phschafft>
I don't claim that it's good. but I must say it is one of the better ways.
<nephele>
yeah but, is this configure script even autofoo generated?
<phschafft>
if not, different rules apply. --help is generally a good idea to consult.
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<nephele>
I doubt this is generated by autoconfig
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<phschafft>
then see the help, simple as that. :)
<nephele>
yeah but... I don't see why you would suggest this would work then without checking it
* Anarchos
reboot to test net boot
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<OscarL>
Anarchos: any luck?
<Anarchos>
OscarL with ?
<OscarL>
net boot?
<Anarchos>
OscarL no but i think the image i was loading gave a lot of 'no symbol found'
<Anarchos>
OscarL so i rebuild it
<OscarL>
welp, good luck for the next try then!
<Anarchos>
OscarL the goal is just to reproduce the too small buffer error :)
* Anarchos
reboots
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<Anarchos>
OscarL i could not get haiku do netboot
<OscarL>
:-(
<Anarchos>
OscarL though i already did it in 2022
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