<sen>
vdamewood: yes! not a lot but we're out there still :) and there's plugins for browsers to add gopher functionality back since most of them removed it awhile ago. I run an HTTP bridge for mine too (http://gopherbridge.sen.cx/), since I know a lot of people don't have stuff configured for gopher.
<nephele_xmpp>
sen: WebPositive supported gopher
<nephele_xmpp>
Currently this support is disabled since we switcher to the cURL backend in haikuwebkit
<nephele_xmpp>
but the native network kit does still kinda support it... in a very webrowser centric way
<sen>
ahh, neat! will have to look into that once I get all the minor hardware support annoyances for my laptop sorted out.
<nephele_xmpp>
The haikuwebkit support can be enabled, but that requires building webkit and it is large and slow to build :)
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<nephele_xmpp>
the support we do have should probably be split up, so a native gemini client can be properly written without needing webpositive or haikuwebkit
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<nephele>
the native support is basically two parts, implementing the gopher protocol, and then a layer that translates the gopher menus and stuff to html
<nephele>
the second part should be in a translator instead, and the kit should give the gopher document directly
<nephele>
if you want to take a look at it in a couple of days feel free to ping me and i'll dig up where it is in the sourcetree ;)
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<sen>
nephele: almost done the multi-battery issues which were the most annoying to live with, after that I need to get the trackpad improved then I might look at this :) will reach out if/when I do!
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<nephele_xmpp>
👍
<waddlesplash>
sen: if your trackpad works but just not well odds are it may be a PS/2 device in fallback mode
<waddlesplash>
i.e. it's being processed as a mouse not a trackpad
<waddlesplash>
this should be apparent by whether it shows up as a mouse or a trackpad in Input preferences
<waddlesplash>
I think one of the major trackpad protocols (elantech?) implementation is disabled in the PS/2 driver because it didn't work right or something
<waddlesplash>
the commit logs should show more
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<Begasus>
morning peeps
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<Monni>
morning Begasus
<Begasus[m]>
morning Monni
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<Monni>
Begasus[m]: Found fun bug in Haiku... Managed it to run out of memory even before starting itself...
<gordonjcp>
Monni: is this in a VM?
<gordonjcp>
Monni: I've had all sorts of fun with qemu when I've forgotten to set the memory size ;-)
<Monni>
gordonjcp: Running on real hardware...
<gordonjcp>
Oh that's good ;-)
<gordonjcp>
is it actually out of memory or is it just being weird?
<Monni>
gordonjcp: It overwrites page tables while still running in real mode...
<Begasus>
so far I haven't seen anything like that here Monni
<Monni>
Begasus: Neither has the person who wrote the bootloader ;)
<Begasus>
lol
<nipos>
waddlesplash: I just tested booting Haiku on my 128GB RAM server again,now with hrev58239 which should include your patch for it,but it still doesn't work.Can't remember if it's the same error as last time.
<Monni>
Begasus: He thought 8 MB is enough space for bootloader to work on... I got it to write over 4 megabytes after that... essentially overwriting page tables and BIOS reserved area...
<Begasus[m]>
Monni that's not something a regular user would do I guess :P
<Monni>
Begasus[m]: Well... I'm a kernel developer ;)
<Begasus[m]>
sounds like a kernel hacker :P
<Begasus>
why would you write over 4MB after ... ?
<Monni>
Begasus: Dunno... Either it's leaking memory like SpongeBob SquarePants, or it tries to allocate too much to display the boot menu...
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<Begasus>
way out of my skills :) while you're at it, could you fix my issue not being able to boot the USB? ;)
<Monni>
Begasus[m]: My PC doesn't even try to boot using UEFI mode... With legacy BIOS boot, it just works...
<Monni>
Begasus[m]: I'm pretty sure it initializes some hardware too late...
<Begasus>
oh well, can keep myself busy anyway :)
<Monni>
Begasus[m]: For me, when it booted from CD, it loaded kernel from hard disk and not CD... That made me believe it hasn't initialized all drivers yet...
<Begasus>
from CD? you still use that? ;)
<Monni>
Begasus: Don't want to waste a DVD if the image is less than 700 MB ;)
<gordonjcp>
my laptop actually has a DVD drive
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<Begasus>
the other ones also, this one comes without
<Monni>
gordonjcp: This PC has Blu-Ray rewritable... but I'm too lazy to buy blank discs...
<gordonjcp>
I use it for ripping DVDs for our Community Action Team so I can upload them to Youtube, because none of our work laptops have optical drives
<gordonjcp>
I don't know why you'd boot an OS from optical disc these days though
<Monni>
gordonjcp: I have almost 100 blank discs I want to use...
<Monni>
takes less than 5 minutes to make a new CD with different hrev... And don't need to worry about bricking my main installation...
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<Monni>
waddlesplash: reverting just 875b13d5824f494e061dd00fcaa654d4faae55c0 makes it show boot menu again...
<botifico>
[haikuports/haikuports] humdingerb 9e7947a - clipdinger: update to v1.2.4
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<nephele>
good day
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<sen>
waddlesplash: it’s showing up as a touchpad in this case, the physics are just weird and it takes like four full swipes of it edge to edge to get across the screen, even with everything turned all the way up. it’s usable just unpleasant currently
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<humdinger>
haha! I'm such a cretin. From a local build I kept the increased REVISION when pushing the changed checksum change. Forgot to revert the REVISION...
<humdinger>
no matter...
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<nephele>
oh hi humdinger
<nephele>
Any chance ponkodiff can gain a git compatible mode? :D
<humdinger>
hullo nephele
<humdinger>
I wouldn't know where to start...
<humdinger>
would be nice though :)
<nephele>
maybe checking how diff-so-fancy consumes git diffs? hmm
<humdinger>
all quite above my paygrade and miles from my movivation threshold. :)
<nephele>
I like the idea of ponkodiff, but i never use anything other than git for diffs
<humdinger>
It's nice for a quick compare. For example to quickly compare crash reports to see if it's the same.
<humdinger>
Begasus seems to use it regularly for his recipe work.
<humdinger>
It seems OK for simple compares.
<nephele>
I agree. But not a usecase i really have
<nephele>
I think ponkodiff should be ideally included in Haiku as a "hidden" utility. e.g invoke this by right clicking a file in tracker and picking "Compare with..." and then selecting the other file
<nephele>
or selecting two files and having "Compare files"
<humdinger>
yeah. it already does that.
<nephele>
with open-with? don't like that. It's badly discoverable ;)
<nephele>
That entire menu is a bit badly cluttered. on my system i have every app three times... but other than that Open with-> zip o matic makes little sense, or open with-> file types
<nephele>
file types should move to file info dialog, zip-o-matic should be a "Compress" option in the toplevel and such
<humdinger>
just saying it currently already works as described. it's of course in "open with" as it's a seperate app, not integrated.
<nephele>
Trackers menu in that case should support a bit more of this stuff directly, it's very hard to discover such functionality exists like this :)
<humdinger>
maybe. OTOH this integration can easily drown out 3rd party apps. Like putting ZOM visible as "Compress" and a user prefers Beezer, for example.
<humdinger>
TrackRunner does integrate into the context menu BTW.
<humdinger>
... and Tracker window menu bar.
<nephele>
Compress is a semantic action. There is no reason why there can't be a semantic compress BMessage and target, allowing users to select what they want
<nephele>
maybe in tracker preferences
<Begasus>
err ... me know nothing?
<humdinger>
I don't know... maybe I'm too used to a "fixed" Tracker GUI and stuff are found in "Open with" or add-ons
<Begasus>
nephele, ponpokodiff to compare 2 files (eg old recipe vs new recipe)
<Begasus>
file changes in sources also with diff
<nephele>
Open with-> zip-o-matic is not a semantic action, but it treats it as such. if you try to Open a zip file with zip-o-matic it will stuff it into yet anoter zip
<humdinger>
of course. you told it to. :)
* phschafft
throws in the .desktop spec for some nice glitter!
<nephele>
I don't see how a user should understand why zip-o-matic is a compressor or not :) It sounds like a tool to view zip files
<Begasus>
zip-(aut)o-matic :)
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<humdinger>
most people would double-click to unpack which launches Expander.
<nephele>
also, freshly compressed zips are not selected in tracker, so it is not obvious that something happened directly if you have many files in a dir
<Begasus>
I mostly delete the .desktop files phschafft :)
<nephele>
humdinger: doesn't make the UI less confusing :P
<humdinger>
it's not the GUI but the app name.
<nephele>
also expander should have a Extract option in the UI in the same way so this can be done without summoning another window
<humdinger>
a ZIP file system
<nephele>
zip file systems exist on linux. Only problem is this is done with libraries where some apps support it and others do not. Can't rely on it
<nephele>
phschafft: how hostile would it be to have a kind of zipFS that mounts onto the same name as the zip file? Can that work in posix?
<phschafft>
I'm sure you could find some zip+fuse based thing somewhere on the net.
<humdinger>
anyhoo.. need to get some groceries and start cooking...
* humdinger
waves
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<nephele>
That's not my question, i know stuff like that exists. I mean mounting the filesystem onto the same name as the original file has
<nephele>
so mounting ~
<nephele>
so mounting ~/zipfile.zip as ~/ziplfile.zip so you can enter it as ~/zipfile.zip/stuff
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<phschafft>
not fully sure what the implication of mounting a directory over a plain file is. but I generally don't see a reason why this shouldn't be pos(s)i(x)able other than it's not implemented.
<phschafft>
you may also want to ask in #plan9 they might have that implemented.
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<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] 5f8742079297 - kernel: Add maxAddress constraint to vm_allocate_early_physical_page.
<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] a50dfb908747 - kernel/vm: Allocate early physical pages from above 4GB first.
<waddlesplash>
Coldfirex: ^^ that should fix booting with 160GB at least
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<Coldfirex>
Awesome. I will test it out when its available
<nipos>
Will also retry on my server then :)
<waddlesplash>
nipos: the KDL you posted should have been solved in hrev58240. However you'll probably just hit the same issues Coldfirex did so indeed wait to retest with ...43
<nipos>
I thought you fixed it earlier since it's been a few days
<waddlesplash>
I fixed an issue but there was another regression
<waddlesplash>
so that was fixed in ..40
<nipos>
Ah ok
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<nipos>
Completely unrelated question: Do you remember any API-breaking changes over the last few years,especially related to how BApplications and/or BLoopers work?
<nipos>
I've been playing around with reviving good old BeAIM today and when saving preferences or hitting Login,it crashes and the Debugger shows it tried to delete a BLooper that was still running,which isn't allowed I think.But the very same code must have worked in the past 🤔
<waddlesplash>
it may have been always disallowed but an assertion was added recently to make sure this wasn't happening
<nipos>
Building with proper debug symbols revealed that the error is somewhere completely different.That's the first time I'm working with debug symbols and can use Debugger for something useful.Crashes are fixed,but it doesn't connect.
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<nipos>
And it's totally understandable that old outdated code can't be kept working forever if that makes modernization more complicated.I'm sure I'll find a way to make it work again and maybe fix some of the countless GCC warnings
<Skipp_OSX>
"If it finds SimCity running, it runs the memory allocator in a special mode that doesn’t free memory right away."
<Skipp_OSX>
"Windows NT, upon detecting files typically installed with Final Fantasy VII, will implement a fittingly titled compatibility fix: 'Win95VersionLie.'"
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<nephele_xmpp>
That's more like webkits quirks, fixes for malformed webpages than any backwards compatibility
<Skipp_OSX>
"If it detects files named 'Horny.tif' and 'bullfrog.sbk', it updates where Windows 95/98 versions of Dungeon Keeper should put those files in Windows XP and later."
<nephele_xmpp>
and if you have the source of the offending app... just fix that app?
<Skipp_OSX>
anyway, we could do similar things, but we don't want to, that's my point.
<nephele_xmpp>
nothing stopping you from preloading a patched libbe for misbrhaving closed apps....
<Skipp_OSX>
sure there is, it would never pass review.
<nephele_xmpp>
Why would it? There is no reason to keep this in tree
<Skipp_OSX>
see
<nephele_xmpp>
if you distribute an old app that needs this, put the patched lib in lib/ and distribute it...
<nephele_xmpp>
There is no need for special code in haiku for this
<Skipp_OSX>
There is no commitment to backwards compatibility with misbehaving be apps.
<nipos>
Haiku always tried to have clean code,Windows obviously not.It's funny that Windows fixes broken third-party apps,but we shouldn't do that.Fixing the broken app itself is better.
* Skipp_OSX
Right, exactly my point, there is no stomach for these kinds of fixes, as you said.
<nipos>
And BeAIM is open-source,so nothing is stopping me from debugging its source directly.Hacking together a specific Haiku version that makes BeAIM work unmodified isn't going to be easier,rather the opposite.
<nephele_xmpp>
Just do these fixes if you have troubles like that? I really don't see the problem
<Skipp_OSX>
SoundPlay 4.9.3?
<Skipp_OSX>
There isn't a problem, just a recognition of the reality.
<Skipp_OSX>
The problem if there is one, is binary compatibility of course.
<nephele_xmpp>
If the app is open: fix it in the app
<nephele_xmpp>
If it is closed: fix it in patched libs, and distribute them with the app
<Skipp_OSX>
Saying you can update the source is the same as saying that you are not interested in binary compatibility, which is fine, but let's not pretend otherwise is true.
<nephele_xmpp>
I am not interested in adding quirks for problems that appear only in specific open source apps
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<nipos>
Maybe the binaries from years ago would still work if there were any.Who knows?I couldn't find a compiled BeAIM build
<nephele_xmpp>
Such a fixed lib would be very limited in use compared to the effort required
<Skipp_OSX>
I thought about creating a libbecompat.so that strips out all the Haiku additions and implements quirks.
<Skipp_OSX>
but like I said, there's no stomach for it.
<nephele_xmpp>
I don't see a problem with that. Just don't think it makes sense to complicate our existing sources for something like that. especially since you can't even run 32bit apps on modern (64bit) computers in Haiku
<Anarchos>
hello
<Skipp_OSX>
Yeah clean break with 64-bit we could implement 32-bit if we wanted to.
<Skipp_OSX>
multilib is ugly though
<nephele_xmpp>
Multilib could be "install 32bit haiku into /system32" :p
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<Skipp_OSX>
implement hypervisor, spin up 32-bit instance
<nipos>
Why bother with multilib now that BeOS apps are out of date by more than 20 years and mostly irrelevant?
<nipos>
Sounds like wasted storage (and developer time) to me
<Skipp_OSX>
right, be binary compatibility should be dropped then since we're not interested in it.
<Skipp_OSX>
The idea of libbecompat.so is so that we can create an incompatible libbe.so while still running Be apps with a shim. But it seems like we don't really care about the shim anyway.
<nephele_xmpp>
I think something like the be productive suite still needs a native replacement
<nipos>
I don't mind keeping it around now that we have it,but investing tons of work into it when there are more important things to do doesn't seem reasonable
<Skipp_OSX>
nah, LIbreOffice is good enough.
<nephele_xmpp>
Meh, not really
<dovsienko>
it would help to state first exactly what problem needs to be solved, then it would be easier to compare potential solutions
<Skipp_OSX>
The problem is binary incompatibility with BeOS apps.
<nipos>
A Gobe Productive replacement would be really cool,but I have to admit that I never even tried it since all my installs are 64bit
<Skipp_OSX>
Tons of Be apps do not run, or do not run well.
<dovsienko>
such as, for example, which ones?
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<Skipp_OSX>
SoundPlay 4.9.3 does not run, Gobe Productive font issues and translators crash, Eddie settings have font issues, Attraction! doesn't run right.
<Skipp_OSX>
just off the top of my head
<dovsienko>
is there any remotely feasible way to find the original developers of those and to ask either to make those open source or to port to Haiku?
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<Begasus[m]>
closing down, cu peeps!
<dovsienko>
Skipp_OSX: proprietary software usually needs money to stay alive
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<Skipp_OSX>
software needs money to stay alive
<Skipp_OSX>
if you ain't growin' you're dyin' there ain't no third direction
<Skipp_OSX>
But you have to admit you'd rather have the bottom picture then the top one, right?
<dovsienko>
open source software also needs money, but it usually can avoid hard landing if there is a healthy community and willing volunteers
<Skipp_OSX>
I'll take your non-answer as a no.
<dovsienko>
I do not understand the question in the first place
<Skipp_OSX>
can you see the screenshot?
<dovsienko>
ah, yes
<Skipp_OSX>
I got the box label fix in at least
<dovsienko>
yes, it is better when the layout isn't mangled of course
<Skipp_OSX>
My patch got rejected due to technical reasons I do not understand.
<Skipp_OSX>
I guess because they want split out into a config file or something but I don't understand what they want even though they tell me I don't understand it.
<Skipp_OSX>
So you get the top image instead of the bottom, but I tried.
<Monni>
Sometimes they just have different code shown in public repository and the repository they use for actual development... So the code might have diverged already too much for the patch to merge cleanly...
<Skipp_OSX>
Eddie is never going to get updated anyway so it's not a big loss. I like how the Kiss matching checkbox doesn't quite align with the other two checkboxes
<Skipp_OSX>
Um, well, the patch probably doesn't apply anymore because we've done a bunch of stuff with font fallbacks, and we have more to do.
<Skipp_OSX>
but that's ok, it could be updated pretty easily, if I ever figure out how they want me to fix it.
<Monni>
Sometimes forking is better than trying to force things upstream...
<Skipp_OSX>
but not in this case bc this is for backwards compatibility...
<dovsienko>
Skipp_OSX: would it be a better long-term solution to rewrite the desired application from scratch? you already know which features you want most and how things are supposed to work
<Skipp_OSX>
I've contacted the developer and he is not interested in porting the app to Haiku unfortunately.
<Skipp_OSX>
The better long term strategy is to drop Be app compatibility.
<Skipp_OSX>
I do not want to go to that site, can you sum it up?
<dovsienko>
they collected a hundred thousand euro, bought the proprietary software out and made it open source
<dovsienko>
that's why eventually you can install it on Haiku even though BeOS never supported it
<dovsienko>
maybe ask the author what price seems right to settle this once and for all
<nipos>
Sometimes the sources are simply lost
<nipos>
I don
<nipos>
I don't know about Eddie,never heard about it,but for Gobe Productive there's quite big interest.The source is lost however and no price can recover it.And I think that's true for many old proprietary apps.
<nephele_xmpp>
heh, winamp deleted their repo
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<Monni>
Deleting WinAMP repository was the only viable solution... Too many things gone wrong...
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<Skipp_OSX>
well there you go
<Skipp_OSX>
it really whipped the llama's... nevermind
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<dovsienko>
the point I am trying to make is that when Winamp didn't port to Linux, people just implemented Linamp from scratch
<Monni>
Implementing from scratch takes time... and skills...
<dovsienko>
I remember the first versions of Linamp: they didn't even have all the buttons working, or any skin support, or many formats, but it played music an was more convenient than running mpg123 from command line
<Monni>
Running mpg123 from command-line brings memories...
<dovsienko>
then it developed and became XMMS, and then BMP, and then Audacious and what not
<Skipp_OSX>
CL-Amp is the Be port, is it not?
<Monni>
I haven't even checked yet if Haiku supports sound card in this machine...
<dovsienko>
also one of the names of the software that was reimplemented from scratch was "X11amp" at some point, IIRC
<dovsienko>
I may have used BeAmp briefly when exploring BeOS, and that was not a Nullsoft project either, AFAIR
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<dovsienko>
if there is a genuine demand for a particular software, roll your sleeves up and see if you can write it
<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] 1ad8d90108b0 - kernel/vm: Drop an obsolete commented-out line from VMAddressSpace.
<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] b0b1b524f83b - tests: Fix build & link of the DiskDeviceManagerTest.
<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] 0a5c9ef0a484 - kernel: Move get_mount_point from VMUtils to KPartition.
<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] 086f997e50ce - kernel/vm: Move most kernel debugger routines to a new vm_debug.cpp.
<Skipp_OSX>
I mean, didn't we already do that?
<Skipp_OSX>
There was genuine interest in a particular software, BeOS and we rolled up our sleeves and wrote it.
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<dovsienko>
in 32-bit space?
<dovsienko>
if BeOS existed long enough to see 64-bit PCs replace 32-bit PCs, it would have to strike the same balance between backward compatibility and development
<dovsienko>
and it is possible the developers would just drop 32-bit support due to lack of paying 32-bit customers, and that would be it
<dovsienko>
in this case BeOS didn't have to solve this problem, so there is no reference of how to resolve this correctly
<nipos>
I'm pretty sure that if BeOS continued to exist or Haiku were at the point it is today 15 years ago,there would be a 32bit compatibility layer for the 64bit system since there's huge demand for it.But now that those proprietary apps are out of date by 20 years,nobody uses them anyways
<dovsienko>
as much as it makes sense to me, having an open source software makes things much easier, so where possible, reimplementing must-haves as FOSS is an option to consider, whether money is involved or not
<Skipp_OSX>
The first 64-bit Athlon machines came out around 2003 IIRC so they just missed it.
<HaikuUser>
Im trying to run WinBe on Haiku x86 -
<HaikuUser>
Somebody help? The install script is broken I guess.
<HaikuUser>
I cannot copy the .so libraries to lib because read-only
<nipos>
I exclusively use open-source software and you're right dovsienko,it provides many advantages.Especially the fact that you don't know what it does on your computer is a reason to avoid proprietary stuff.
<nipos>
I mean the BeOS apps from 20 years ago usually didn't phone home,but now that this is common practice,I really wouldn't want to use modern proprietary applications...
<Skipp_OSX>
it's more about collecting data to train AI LLM's these days
<Skipp_OSX>
your mouse movements, your eye movements, click rate, etc. all collected and stored on servers to be used to sell you ads and whatever else they come up with for it.
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<Monni>
HaikuUser: Normal lib directory is only available for packaged software.... You need to change it to use non-packaged/lib instead...
<Monni>
HaikuUser: You can change folder background color in Appearance if you untick "Automatically select secondary colors"...
<botifico>
[haiku/infrastructure] kallisti5 49cda45 - concourse: flip haiku package repositories over to backblaze
<HaikuUser>
OK, that's still something thanks, but I was looking to set image/color as a backround on a per-folder basis.
<waddlesplash>
there's some way to do this but I forget what
<waddlesplash>
drag and drop colors maybe?
<Monni>
HaikuUser: You can file an enhancement ticket and see if other people think it's a good idea... Should be possible to implement by storing the information in folder's attributes...
<HaikuUser>
Maybe it once worked because there is Right-click -> Add-Ons -> Backgrounds for every folder in Tracker.
<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] f21cc2bfb0fd - USB: Cancel queued transfers before waiting for idle.
<Skipp_OSX>
Per window bg hasn't worked for a while afaik
<HaikuUser>
The information seems to be stored for each folder individually because if I choose a background for different folders I still see that I picked particular background after I close the dialog and reopen the window - the image is just not displayed.
<Skipp_OSX>
At some point the bg was switched to using the system colors instead... we do store info in an attribute
<Skipp_OSX>
you got it right, we store the info in an attribute but don't use/display it.
<HaikuUser>
Except for Desktop folder..
<phschafft>
nephele_xmpp: I'm off for a bit. but attributes in multi user envs would be on my list to get some feedback from you. (just remembering because the discussion was a reminder)
<Monni>
waddlesplash: Says it booted 58241+8, but the boot screen with the icons is corrupted...
<HaikuUser>
Thank you everybody, I have to go now -
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<waddlesplash>
Monni: perhaps expected if you booted with differing official configurations
<waddlesplash>
ok but if it works, great, we can merge and close the ticket
<Monni>
waddlesplash: I tried both cold and warm boot and couldn't get it crash in bootloader itself...
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<waddlesplash>
nice
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<Monni>
waddlesplash: I only wanted to test nightly to see if it crashes less... It was too easy to get to KDL with beta 5...
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<Monni>
Considering network adapter is the only device that Haiku has driver for, it's quite good that it doesn't crash hard...
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