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<noobish>
No handler for region [ECOR]
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<noobish>
seems to have a hard time with radeon and nvidia stuff
<noobish>
maybe an advanced debugging option to choose manually
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<Skipp_OSX>
unfortunately only VESA video on ThinkPad 450s
<Skipp_OSX>
T450s
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<OscarL>
can't access forum, gerrit, main haiku website, nor trac or cgit :-/
<OscarL>
"SSL_ERROR_UNRECOGNIZED_NAME_ALERT"
<noobish>
Still not sure why I can't get this install working, I'll poke my head in here tomorrow, I gotta hit the hay, thanks for trying earlier, mattlacey
<noobish>
For anyone who might be able to help in a really straightforward quick way, I'm trying to no avail to install Haiku on a ThinkPad T450s
<noobish>
Echoing what OscarL's saying, too. the Haiku site worked earlier this evening but now seems to be down
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<noobish>
well, making install media from the nightly build rather than the beta worked
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<OscarL>
"Content blocked" -> "Please turn off your ad blocker." :-D
<OscarL>
domain expired again?
<augiedoggie>
according to whois the domain is expired
<OscarL>
exactly one year ago (2023-10-29)... zard said this:
<OscarL>
"10:43 <zard> Niklas[m]: As someone on the mailing list pointed out, the domain name registry was updated today and won't expire until a year"
<OscarL>
famous last words :-)
<OscarL>
oh wait. I miss read... they were correct after all. it did expired one year later :-P
* OscarL
gently elbows kallisti5[m] and nielx[m].
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<waddlesplash>
the domain is supposed to autorenew
<waddlesplash>
but it seems this has not worked multiple years in a row
<waddlesplash>
I'll page the admins
<OscarL>
+1
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<Begasus>
morning peeps
<Begasus>
who broke pkgman?
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<Begasus[m]>
or is this all related to the damain experation?
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<Begasus[m]>
jikes, all is down it seems, forum, buildmasters (webpage), the reports ...
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<JulesEnriquez[m]>
Already sent a warning over on the Haiku Community Discord for people not to visit any links from the home page, until the domain is renewed.
<Begasus>
+1
<janking>
ok
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<kg>
anybody facing issues with haiku-os.org? it's going into a parked domain
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
If you have an account on the Fediverse, please boost it.
<Begasus[m]>
Shared on FB
<Begasus[m]>
Hopping on it Jules Enriquez :)
<Begasus>
and boosted
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
I forgot, was the Haiku domain snapped up the las time autorenewal failed?
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
I forgot, was the Haiku domain snapped up the last time autorenewal failed?
<Shaka444>
HaikuOS.org was available so I purchased it so no one could steal it. So thats an option if we need it. (its probably a better name anyway ;-) )
<Shaka444>
JulesEnriquez[m] no it was just down for a while
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<DigitalBox98>
Hello, haiku-os.org domain is not working, maybe you might already know
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<Shaka444>
Well before we pay ransom to the terrorist we can use the HaikuOS.org name. if it shows no value to the theif for a few months or a year we can buy it back for cheap. Please don't waste our limited resources on a theif.
<Monni>
Legit registrars should send e-mail to administrative contact of domain if someone tries to buy the domain name after the grace period... It might be easy to contest the domain transfer to the squatter...
<Shaka444>
good idea
<coolcoder613>
s/theif/thief/g
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<JulesEnriquez[m]>
Given that Haiku, Inc. does have registered trademarks, there might not be anything that needs to be paid.
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<phschafft>
IF those trademarks apply.
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<JulesEnriquez[m]>
Doubt that those trademarks have expired too.
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<JulesEnriquez[m]>
Or became invalid, for that matter.
<phschafft>
I'm not talking about them being in effect. I'm talking about them applying to the problem.
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<Monni>
Someone from Haiku Inc. should just contact NameCheap and ask them to renew the domain... Outsiders can't contact them directly as the domain is still in grace period...
<Monni>
NameCheap has had long history for allowing advertisers to use expired domains during grace period...
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<Shaka444>
Well while we are waiting for this to resolve, Firefox Nightly is available for testing. :-) The files are available on the Haiku Telegram page https://t.me/haiku_os
<|cos|>
If I understand it correctly, the registrar NameCheap monetize the site with a landing page at Bodis LLC while awaiting the renewal + $75 penalty fee.
<DigitalBox98>
This is an informative status set for a limited time after your domain's auto- renewal by the registry. If you do not want to keep it (i.e., pay the renewal fee) anymore, you should contact your registrar immediately to discuss what options are available.
<DigitalBox98>
So it depends who is the official contact who has done the registration to namecheap.com in the name of Haiku I guess
<DigitalBox98>
and second status is : clientTransferProhibited
<DigitalBox98>
This status indicates that it is not possible to transfer the domain name registration, which will help prevent unauthorized transfers resulting from hijacking and/or fraud. If you do want to transfer your domain, you must first contact your registrar and request that they remove this status code.
<SoulHunter>
I think the question is, which person from haiku-inc has access to the customer panel/payment page at namecheap ?
<Shaka444>
We shout NOT deal with namecheap first! First attempt to renew/pay our current host. I think namecheap is parking thier page on the open site during the grace period.
<Shaka444>
or is namecheap who we use?
<DigitalBox98>
what is strange is that the "Registry Expiration" is now 2025-19-29 (updated 2024-10-29 01:11:33). So I guess someone is trying to "squat" the domaine
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<Forza>
Oh nm my comment. This is about dns registrar andd not tls. Sorry
<Forza>
I hope it can be solved
<phschafft>
thiws sounds very strange. I mean, if the point of that period is to protect against an overtake, how can the it be valid for registrar to put content up? ;)
<phschafft>
but that surely is something for someone with legal background.
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<DigitalBox98>
NameCheap Inc is the official Registrar. Haiku Inc should contact their customer service I suppose
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<DigitalBox98>
The bad guy is the one who has registered the domain yesterday (strange I thought that a grace period was applicable... or maybe a renewal issue somewhere or an account hacking, not sure)
<|cos|>
According to whois history, NameCheap appears to have been the registrar Haiku has been using for a while.
<|cos|>
One could argue that NameCheap is shady in "monetizing" expired domains by placing ads on them, but I guess that's what the market expects from a registrar of .org domains?
<|cos|>
I was late with renewing one of my .se domains once. My registrar neither limited my services nor charged me extra. I probably wouldn't had stayed with them if they had handled my mistake worse, but registrars come in many shades of shady.
<kallisti5[m]>
we need to move away from namecheap
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<JulesEnriquez[m]>
<phschafft> "I'm not talking about them being..." <- No, any registered trademark can apply.
<kallisti5[m]>
They a shady. Essentially, their system doesn't let us select auto-renew, and it doesn't allow us to select more than 1 year.
<kallisti5[m]>
we have a card on file, it's enabled for auto-renew.
<kallisti5[m]>
anyway, I just renewed all the domains. Waiting on propagation. They modify the resolvers when they do this... so it takes time to propagate. (6-12 hours)
<Begasus[m]>
Thanks kallisti5
<kallisti5[m]>
no problem. I'm going to migrate us to another registrar within the next year
<Begasus[m]>
+1
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<JulesEnriquez[m]>
kallisti5[m]: Just a heads-up, I'm going to post an update on the Fediverse soon.
<haikuRR>
it's just me or everything went down toda?
<kallisti5[m]>
Sounds good. Thank you
<haikuRR>
today?
<Begasus[m]>
gotta love it, I can see your image here in NeoChat on Haiku kallisti5 but can't see it in Nheko on Windows :D
<kallisti5[m]>
lol
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<phschafft>
JulesEnriquez[m]: are you a lawyer for the field of trademarks?
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
No, but a friend of mine had to do it for one of their previous jobs.
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<JulesEnriquez[m]>
Going through Trademark Clearinghouse or WIPO (but that one might have high arbitration fees).
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<Begasus[m]>
k, libdns_sd looks to be enabled, gonna try hooking that up for the one in the KF6 framework ...
<roiredX>
silly question, what happened today
<roiredX>
all haiku servers appeared down to me
<roiredX>
forum, org, depot....
<Shaka444>
they are
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<roiredX>
well... looks like they are back up now
<Begasus>
HI roiredX! :)
<roiredX>
hello Begasus... how's it going?
<Begasus>
fine here, still finetuning some obsolete changes for KF6 frameworks
<Begasus>
any progress on your recipe?
<roiredX>
not today.. nor tomorrow, nor thursday...
<roiredX>
XD
<roiredX>
let's see if friday
<Begasus>
heh
<Begasus>
np :)
<Shaka444>
kallisti5[m] I don't know if you were here for the conversation before, but I reserved the name HaikuOS.org just incase we need it
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<Begasus[m]>
atleast pkgman seems to be fine again?
<Begasus>
lol ... [ 89%] Building CXX object src/CMakeFiles/KF6DNSSD.dir/mdnsd-domainbrowser.cpp.o
<Begasus>
still missing/fighting with sso-accounts-qml
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<roiredX>
bye all. take care
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<phschafft>
nephele_xmpp: anything you need from me today?
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<nephele_xmpp>
need not really, just waking up and testing my fresh linux kernel (hoping it does not crash).... yesterday i played some time and it did not, so here is hoping :)
<nephele_xmpp>
shaka444: what we really want is haiku.org ;)
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<|cos|>
TL;DR: It concurrenly installs every possible version under /nix and symlinks(?) hashes of permutations of packages into images that one can use without caring about versioning.
<|cos|>
It has some interesting ideas, but it certainly isn't for everyone (or most people).
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<nephele>
iirc the few things i did like about it haiku already has, but the rest (especially the error "maximum symlink depth exceeded" that no mortal should withness) i'm not sure i liked
<nephele>
anyway, i will probably be at the haiku stand if you want to talk ;)
<matthewcroughan>
For me, Nix is a tool that makes computers a sane thing again. I can't live without it. I'd like to meld that with Haiku .
<nephele>
nix is a hammer
<matthewcroughan>
You call it a yolo packaging tool from academia, which is an ad-hominem unworthy of this IRC, based on the nice conversations I've read.
<|cos|>
matthewcroughan: I guess that came out wrong, due to being in a completly unrelated heated debate in another channel. Apologies for the phrasing.
<nephele>
matthewcroughan: some problems nix tries to solve, like "sane" standard configutations is something I want to solve too. But to me it doesn't make much sense to do that with a package manager, seems like two seperate things to me
<|cos|>
Nix definitely has it's uses, and every day of the week I'd choose it over Docker as the solution to the problems where they both are possible solutions.
<nephele>
and the important stuff like say different boot states we kind of already have
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<nephele>
but then nix also installs packaged by extracting stuff on the disk as physical files which i don't like
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<matthewcroughan>
Since I'm linux-brained, what is the alternative to extracting stuff on the disk as physical files?
<nephele>
Not doing that ;)
<nephele>
haikus packages are mounted and accessed "in memory" from the underlying package files
<nephele>
think of it, in linux terms, as a really fancy RO union mount in memory
<nephele>
and this functionality is implemented, for packages, as a proper single purpose filesystem that does just this
<matthewcroughan>
The /nix/store is just a way of addressing things, it works on fat32, but it can also work via your "in memory mount" idea.
<matthewcroughan>
IDK, there are people experimenting with all sorts of things that I've seen, it's not a limitation really. You could make it more efficient like you want.
<nephele>
The thing is, the store as a "this is where symlinks point to" is not needed at all
<nephele>
also haiku already has a view of each package it can look upon itself with which is /packages/
<Skipp_OSX>
You're minimizing what makes the Haiku packages special, the fact that they are self-contained in zip files
<phschafft>
hm.
<nephele>
Skipp_OSX: zip?
<nephele>
i guess that makes sense in the sense that zip is just a container with sections marked for specific uses. but i've never really looked closely at what container it is
<Skipp_OSX>
don't get caught up in the compression algorithm used
<Skipp_OSX>
I mean zip in the sense of a compressed archive not the specific zip format, I think we use xz for faster decompression.
<Begasus[m]>
let's see if buildmaster is alive :)
<nephele>
yes, it's a compressed, easily seakable file. Which isn't extracted to disk :)
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<nephele>
anyway matthewcroughan, if you have ideas (from nix) that could improve haiku we can talk about that at fosdem :)
<phschafft>
the hpkg files are at least not PK zip files.
<phschafft>
anyone can point me to a quick intro/doc/ref for "/nix/store"?
<|cos|>
phschafft: nothing is ever quick with nix... i would start with the wikipedia article for a highlevel perspective.
<matthewcroughan>
I want a tool that can bootstrap all things from source, and has an expression language which makes packaging overridable. As far as I am aware, Nix is the only thing that can do this right now.
<matthewcroughan>
This means that instead of providing a zip file with binary outputs, you provide a .nix expression that a program (nix) evaluates, and makes possible to reproduce the program from sources, or pulls from an existing binary cache if somebody else has already built this reproducible output.
<|cos|>
matthewcroughan: you're right. nix is the pragmatic currently existing solution to those requirements.
<phschafft>
I was mostly wondering about: 13:40 < |cos|> TL;DR: It concurrenly installs every possible version under /nix and symlinks(?) hashes of permutations of packages into images that one can use without caring about versioning.
<matthewcroughan>
Maybe if I install Haiku and play with it more I'll understand more about the existing workflow and be able to use Nix to produce outputs the existing system is happy with, and maybe find innovations, who knows
<matthewcroughan>
Hope I can find someone interested in teaching me at FOSDEM
<phschafft>
matthewcroughan: I'm also not a Haiku user. and I have a little VM so I can follow what people say in here. ;)
<phschafft>
It's always good to have a system you can just try a few things out.
<matthewcroughan>
I've had people criticise Haiku as a serious alternative to Linux because it "doesn't have a security model", but I'm left wondering what their security model really is anyway.
<|cos|>
phschafft: i regret posting that sentence. as matthewcroughan pointed out it wasn't suitable for this forum.
<nephele>
matthewcroughan: as a haiku developer i think that statement is pretty acurate.
<nephele>
We have virtual memory ;)
<nephele>
and posix file permissions, but everything runs as root per default
<matthewcroughan>
Does this mean that running a web browser is a real risk, given that webpages have JS and could take over your system due to a lack of sandboxing.
<nephele>
if your usecase requires hieghtened security Haiku is (at the current time) not a good solution for you
<matthewcroughan>
Not that there are any malicious codes targeting haiku in popular usage anyway.
<nephele>
Depends on how secure you think webkit is. But then again currently nobody really targets haiku
<nephele>
but then again haiku is in beta. :)
<nephele>
if code could break out of the js vm it could do damage to your system, yes. But unless you run specific browsers that employ sandboxing (namespaces) on linux you have the same problem there... assuming that user data is what you are worried about
<nephele>
from there pre-reqs, getting source and building for version you want
<nephele>
you can build it on linux and freebsd for "foreign" OSes i think
<nephele>
windows with wsl2
<matthewcroughan>
Interesting, very nice.
<matthewcroughan>
Wondering now if there is already existing work of someone trying to build Haiku with Nix (nix build .#haiku-os-image)
<nephele>
probably not
<nephele>
but we have our own build system with countless targets. Is your goal to just get one target (probably @nightly-anyboot) wrapped into nix?
<matthewcroughan>
Yeah I would like to build the system iso with Nix, then boot that, effectively making an image builder function in nix lang for producing this system image
<nephele>
alright. I think that should be doable
<nephele>
you can ask me a bit about the build system, but don't expect me to know any nix syntax ;)
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<matthewcroughan>
Why is Haiku OS so modern btw? Is this a philosophy? E.g you're using Git rather than SVN, but I would expect a project of its age to use SVN
<matthewcroughan>
And for Rust to be supported is also surprising
<nephele>
of it's age? it's much younger than linux xD
<nephele>
but yes, Haiku used to use SVN, now we use git. I wasn't around back then when it was switched
<matthewcroughan>
Yeah sorry! I'm learning, I think I mean its legacy, BeOS, etc
<nephele>
ah okay. Well Haiku is not a direct descendant code wise, there are two project BE Open sourced that are in Haiku, but the rest is made completely by ourselfes
<nephele>
or using open source libraries like freetype, mesa, etc.
<nephele>
also glibc and musl is here in parts
<Skipp_OSX>
Haiku did use svn until around 2009
<matthewcroughan>
Do you have an alternative to libc and musl?
<matthewcroughan>
And how does that bootloader work on the visionfive? Does it interact with opensbi or is it its own thing?
<nephele>
our libc is our own but incorporates code from glibc, musl, and our own code
<Skipp_OSX>
right around alpha1 switched over to git, we're too modern? ha
<matthewcroughan>
It's like OpenSBI -> U-boot is the usual boot flow, so I guess you have the Haiku loader instead of U-Boot?
<nephele>
for the bootloader on vision five i have no clue. May be better asked on the forum, or here if kallisti5[m] or x512[m] is around
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<phschafft>
matthewcroughan: thanks also for the provided links.
<matthewcroughan>
|cos|: don't feel too bad about the mistake/ad-hominem, happens all the time
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<matthewcroughan>
Just wait until we have HaikuCon and the military starts using HaikuOS, then shit will really start flying
<nephele>
just Haiku
<Begasus>
HaikuLeaks ... :P
<nephele>
Begasus: get that pipe fixed then...
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<Begasus>
pipe?
<nephele>
if it leaks
<nephele>
potentially a coding sprint after fosdem btw Begasus
<nephele>
maybe you can arrive and one of the present peeps can hammer haikuporter into submission with you ;)
<Begasus>
saw something passing by nephele, do you see me coding? :P
<nephele>
No. so? you are effective in triggering bugs with haikuporter, know it's shortcomings, and can test if bugs are fixed
<matthewcroughan>
I have this old HP Compaq nc6120, would that still be able to run Haiku?
<nephele>
which is valuable
<nephele>
matthewcroughan: what cpu?
<nephele>
does it have MMX?
<Begasus>
that I can do nephele :)
<matthewcroughan>
Pentium M by the looks of it
<nephele>
that has MMX and also SSE2 i think
<matthewcroughan>
I had NixOS 22.05 running on it a while ago with no issues, and Sway window manager, so I figure I should be able to use Haiku also
<nephele>
I have a pentium M laptop that runs fine with Haiku
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<matthewcroughan>
Awesome, I also wanted to run TempleOS on it, so is it possible to run VMs in Haiku?
<nephele>
assuming you also have about 256+ mb ram haiku should run
<Begasus>
k, downgraded KF6 for the moment
<nephele>
you can run vms in qemu on haiku. But no hw accell for that, though not sure if pentium M even has any extension for that in any case
<Begasus>
qemu runs matthewcroughan
<matthewcroughan>
I have 512, and paid 30 GBP for some unobtainium ddr1 in fact :D
<Begasus>
had 32bit/64bit scripts when running on bare metal on this one
<matthewcroughan>
I doubt TempleOS would benefit too much from acceleration, so I think that could be fun
<nephele>
should run then. Nightlies have been recently optimized to need even less memory though
<nephele>
but beta5 should also run fine
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<Anarchos>
Begasus: i finally managed to compile my x86_gcc2 :)
<Begasus>
nice Anarchos!
<Begasus>
the one here that builds Haiku for 32bit hasn't been booted for a while, but the script I have for it should still work
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<nephele>
matthewcroughan: just don't expect haiku to run in extremely memory limited envs linux might still run as ;) iirc 128mb is minimum now for the nightlies
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<Begasus>
let's see if it's still up to the job Anarchos :)
<Begasus>
last hrev was 58058 :D
<Begasus>
k afk for a bit
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<kallisti5[m]>
<nephele> "for the bootloader on vision..." <- vision five depends on x512 's branch which adds a newly designed device manager api
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
<matthewcroughan> "For me, Nix is a tool that makes..." <- But can Nix even work under Haiku? More importantly, is it even necessary?
<matthewcroughan>
Depends on whether you want to be able to reproduce things from source with a single command or not, 5-20 years from now.
<matthewcroughan>
That's something I care about, that a lot of people I meet do not care about.
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
Haiku doesn't have distributions, negating the need for distro-agnostic package managers.
<matthewcroughan>
Nix is the opposite of a distro-agnostic package manager, it is as agnostic as they come.
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
Nix and pkgman already share some features.
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<kallisti5[m]>
I've tried nix before... it was horrible
<matthewcroughan>
Whoops, mis-spoke. I mean to say that Nix doesn't care, all it does is take source code as input and produce binaries as output, leaving no steps undefined.
<nephele>
I doubt this discussion makes much sense JulesEnriquez[m]. Haiku won't move to nix. we can use ideas if they are nice
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
FWIW, I do think that pkgman has far better UX than Nix.
<matthewcroughan>
does pkgman compile software from source?
<nephele>
no. It's a package manager
<nephele>
it manages packages
<kallisti5[m]>
matthewcroughan: nope. We have a port system which builds it from source for you
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<JulesEnriquez[m]>
nephele: Yeah, I think it would be better to improve `pkgman` by adding the good features from Nix to it.
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
The good features that aren't already present, anyway.
<nephele>
Packages can be produced with the "package" tool. Regardless of wether this was compiled from any source or not
<matthewcroughan>
Nix typically takes a nix expression, and fully realises the bootstrapping of a given thing. So you can take a single command and reproduce anything.
<matthewcroughan>
Whereas I assume pkgman cannot at this time reproduce the entire iso for Haiku given only the sources and something like a nix expression (instructions) ?
<nephele>
No, and it never will. That's not what pkgman is for
<matthewcroughan>
I.e I would need to read the docs and follow a series of 20 steps, and then I'll get to my result. Pkgman doesn't help with that?
<matthewcroughan>
Right, it's a binary package manager. It manages outputs, not inputs.
<matthewcroughan>
Inputs being the source code. Which pkgman says nothing about?
<nephele>
Why would it?
<kallisti5[m]>
I have a sturdy question. What's the use case for this for the average Haiku user?
<matthewcroughan>
Being able to reproduce software from source with a single command. Is this not a use case?
<kallisti5[m]>
why though?
<nephele>
For pkgman? no.
<matthewcroughan>
IDK, that's up to you. Maybe you're not the target audience.
<nephele>
If you want to build a package from source that is already "just one command"
<kallisti5[m]>
We target everyone to be able to use Haiku. Is your grandma going to do this?
<nephele>
just with haikuporter
<matthewcroughan>
If you don't care about modifying software, or consuming software that is built from source code, then I don't think I will be able to sell this to you.
<nephele>
and for the haiku source tree with jam
<kallisti5[m]>
We want to support advanced use cases, or basic use cases
<nephele>
matthewcroughan: haiku users are *never* expected to compile anything from source
<kallisti5[m]>
that was my issue with nix. It was cool (really cool)
<phschafft>
hm.
<kallisti5[m]>
but my time is valuable
<matthewcroughan>
Nix makes it so you don't even need to know that it is being built from source.
<nephele>
sure, but. why? We already build stuff from source in an enviroment that should be mostly reproduceable, and has instructions on how to do that
<matthewcroughan>
It's something you can understand from the thesis if you do read it. Or by using NixOS as many do.
<nephele>
Why should that involve package management?
<|cos|>
^ Nix key selling point. Not needing to know what you build.
<matthewcroughan>
But if you don't understand it right now, I don't want to force it down your throat.
<kallisti5[m]>
I'm still just stuck on why
<nephele>
The opening thesis, and the issues it wants to adress are not issues haiku has. The only thing not solved is beeing able to install the same package. But you can install it to a different path instead. (But that is a limitation of the unix filesystem)
<kallisti5[m]>
what is the benefit to the end user?
<matthewcroughan>
I can't answer that in a way that I think will satisfy you. Since you're so far unresponsive to the idea that building software from source is a good thing.
<matthewcroughan>
The end user can override how the software was built.
<|cos|>
Of the people I've seen using Nix other than just playing with it, it's 100% been to push development right into production. Skipping release engineering.
<kallisti5[m]>
matthewcroughan: that's the thing. We have a port system that takes in a recipe and spits out a package
<kallisti5[m]>
end users can do that from their desktops if they want to
<kallisti5[m]>
and customize whatever
<matthewcroughan>
Right, I see a big fat amount of negativity, so I'm going to leave it here.
<matthewcroughan>
I didn't come here to have an argument.
<nephele>
The software should work for the end user without recompilation. Haikuports does not have *any* options for ports, unlike for example freebsd ports
<nephele>
for example cpu features should be detected at runtime
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<matthewcroughan>
You claim to be less elitist than Linux. I doubt that now.
* phschafft
gets some popcorn and enjoys the show.
<|cos|>
matthewcroughan: Please don't let a bit of criticism stop you from hacking.
<matthewcroughan>
That's what captivated me, but we'll see about that.
<kallisti5[m]>
matthewcroughan: the hard reality is you're not going to find people jumping up and down to do work to appease what you want for no reason
<matthewcroughan>
Give me a chance will you?
<nephele>
I'm confused by that, i looked up elitism and i don't understand what you want to say by that. Anyhow, haiku just has different goals than say linux. Primarily the OS should be one that works and gets out of your way. But in the same vain the system is yours to do with as you please
<nephele>
nobody is stopping you from using nix, and if it works that is great. but don't expect it to be added to the base system unless there are good reasons to do so, and there is a consensus build with haiku developers that it makes sense to do so
<matthewcroughan>
I don't want anyone to jump up and down. I'm responding to questions, read above.
<phschafft>
matthewcroughan: to help you a bit here. it's best to figure out what others are looking for and then hook them by that. even if what they are looking for is not what they need nor what you have to offer.
<kallisti5[m]>
Patches are always welcome though if you want draft up some ideas
<kallisti5[m]>
<kallisti5[m]> "I'm still just stuck on why" <- ok. answer this question though
<matthewcroughan>
No. You're not deserving of my time.
<nephele>
kallisti5[m]: please stop using matrix replies
<matthewcroughan>
In particular you.
<phschafft>
so if people say they don't need your solution, ask them what they need (again, what they will tell is what they think they need, not what they actually need).
<matthewcroughan>
Don't be so toxic.
<phschafft>
and then you can check if you can solve some of what they're looking for.
<kallisti5[m]>
matthewcroughan: "i'm answering questions" followed by "No. You're not deserving of my time." when I ask why?
<matthewcroughan>
All I did was say Nix. And now you guys are criticising it. I never even advocated for it.
<matthewcroughan>
All I did was say I was interested in it, and wanted to use it in Haiku.
<zdykstra>
I think the responses have been VERY even-handed and fair
* |cos|
feels again to have been expressing himself overly critic, and apologies again.
<kallisti5[m]>
"All I did was say I was interested in it, and wanted to use it in Haiku." This is fair. Others said about it not making sense in haiku.
<zdykstra>
https://github.com/matthewcroughan given your involvement in the Nix world, you're seeing slights and insults against it where there aren't any.
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<|cos|>
Fact is, I'd love to see nix demonstrating how to improve haiku.
<nephele>
Now i'm very confused. I responded to your questions about that. So far you've not established any problem to solve in the current system we have, which would be solved by replacing our package management system by nix.
<matthewcroughan>
If someone says they're interested in something, maybe you shouldn't immediately start being negative about that thing they're interested in.
<nephele>
And i don't think that using nix *on* haiku is remotely the same as making Haiku use nix
<nephele>
nix works fine as a kind of third-party package manager on other linux distros too
<kallisti5[m]>
matthewcroughan: what nephele said
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<matthewcroughan>
You don't have to understand it, to leave me alone and let me hack on it? I don't get why it needs to "make sense in Haiku" to you?
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<kallisti5[m]>
matthewcroughan: that's completely fair. You're free to work on stuff and will get support from the haiku folks on it
<kallisti5[m]>
I think the miscommunication is you came in and people kinda felt like you were expecting the haiku developers to make pkgman nix
<zdykstra>
you don't need anybodies permission to do whatever you want with your computer - just don't also expect people to be openly embracing your work at first
<matthewcroughan>
No expectations, just an interest that I shared
<kallisti5[m]>
yup. Just like any new thing. It has to be better, faster, cheaper
<matthewcroughan>
that I regret sharing due to the explosion of negative criticism and anti-nix sentiment
<zdykstra>
get over yourself
<zdykstra>
there wasn't an explosion of negative criticism and anti-nix sentiment
<nephele>
you asked questions, i responded, of course my questions are in the context of "should we use it in haiku", that is how i interpreted your "If you don't care about [software] built from source code, then I don't think I will be able to sell this to you."
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<matthewcroughan>
From my perspective, there was quite a few messages flinging at me about why Nix doesn't make sense. Even though I never proposed that it be embedded into Haiku in any way, or expected any work from anyone.
<|cos|>
matthewcroughan: to the degree i've expressed negativity, it is from previous nix exposure. prove me wrong and i'll warm up! i'm just a grumpy old man.
<phschafft>
can we maybe now get back to a useful discussion and away from who said what?
<nephele>
anyhow, my offer still stands to explain stuff about haikus build if you want to wrap it (on linux) to build your image, or to talk to me at fosdem about ideas that may make sense in the context of haiku
<kallisti5[m]>
matthewcroughan: I think there also might be a language barrier her.
<kallisti5[m]>
*here
<kallisti5[m]>
"I didn't come here to have an argument."
<phschafft>
at least I have a technical question.
<kallisti5[m]>
argument can be used as an alternative to the word debate
<matthewcroughan>
That's right, I only came here because I wanted to express an interest in Haiku, and to hack on the things I find interesting.
<kallisti5[m]>
argument is not always bad or negative
<matthewcroughan>
I did not really want to have a debate about the pros and cons of nix with people who do not believe in it, or to convince them to believe in it
<nephele>
kallisti5[m]: to be fair, your "nix was horrible" was not as nice either, was recently in another channel where someone said webpositive is horrible, that just hits a bit different if you are working on a project
<kallisti5[m]>
nix was horrible in my personal experiences
<nephele>
anyhow, let's file this under "miscommunication" and move on
<kallisti5[m]>
but, that's my personal experiences
<kallisti5[m]>
if someone thinks haiku or webkit is horrible, that's ok too
<matthewcroughan>
Yes, maybe not the best thing to say in a chatroom though.
<kallisti5[m]>
you collect their input and move on, and don't take it personally
<matthewcroughan>
Not sure what value we get out of you labelling something as horrible.
<nephele>
I think "This is horrible (and implied you are wasting your time)" is a tad different to "it worked terribly for me" :)
<matthewcroughan>
And it of course can be a bit insulting.
<kallisti5[m]>
so, i don'
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<nephele>
also, something beeing horrible is not an actionable thing, it might be it was just not the tool for the job. Or it might have been a really annoying bug
<kallisti5[m]>
so, i don't mince words. Life's too short. I have no issues sharing my personal experiences with things. I'm not making blog posts, or selling books attacking stuff.
<matthewcroughan>
Yes, but you do seem to be wasting your time telling me something is horrible, instead of just ignoring my interests and getting on with your own thing.
<kallisti5[m]>
i mean, you're doing the same thing though
<matthewcroughan>
I don't think I am?
<kallisti5[m]>
you're in a haiku chat room, pronouncing how wonderful nix is
<matthewcroughan>
I think I'm saying that I think Haiku is cool, and that Nix is cool. And that I believe in source distribution.
<matthewcroughan>
That's about it.
<kallisti5[m]>
that's fair
<kallisti5[m]>
I don't limit negativity, just like I don't limit positivity.
* Anarchos
has good news : PSE boot will be solved today for Haiku 32bits.
<matthewcroughan>
PSE boot?
<nephele>
he ment PXE
<matthewcroughan>
I can test that then I guess
<phschafft>
Anarchos: :)
<kallisti5[m]>
haiku's browser sucks. I had trouble with nix as a desktop and spent too much time messing with it. vim mouse emulation sucks. helix editor is cool
<kallisti5[m]>
i'm full of opinions. good and bad
<kallisti5[m]>
I'm just one dude
<nephele>
by the way kallisti5[m], i recently implemented keyboard support for webkit2
<kallisti5[m]>
nephele: nice! Does the webkit legacy have keyboard support?
<nephele>
well, yes. you can type in it no? :P
<Anarchos>
matthewcroughan: yes PXE, sorry for the mistake.
<phschafft>
haha
<kallisti5[m]>
nephele: good point lol, I thought you meant navigation support or something
<nephele>
No i ment events beeing delivered to atleast javascript :D
<nephele>
still some focus issues with not beeing able to focus textboxes or controls i've not figured out though
<nephele>
phschafft: > <phschafft> at least I have a technical question.
<phschafft>
I was just in the kitchen, wondering if I should make a comment like after reading all this meta stuff I kind of timed out on any technical questions.
<Begasus>
re
<Begasus>
Anarchos, so far still OK :)
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<kallisti5[m]>
nephele: so, how is the webkit2 stuff going?
<kallisti5[m]>
do you or PulkoMandy need any support / resources / etc?
<phschafft>
'Too many unacked stanzas remaining, session can't be resumed', a fun one.
<nephele>
we have keyboard and mouse support, mouse wheel i still need to implement. My next target is the mail application.
<nephele>
Hmm, what kind of ressources do you have? For me a gerrit with haikuwebkit would help, but other than that i dunno
<kallisti5[m]>
we can try. gerrit sucks at memory management (look! a negative statement :P) and i'm kind of afraid of trying to put haikuwebkit into it.
<kallisti5[m]>
even github has trouble with haikuwebkit's repo size lol
<nephele>
I am afraid too. But e-mail is unecomical :( I can only send patches to PulkoMandy and then can't get reviews from other people
<nephele>
atleast zard and madmax could directly comment on patches, and in a second line i think you or waddlesplash may also provide good insights
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<zdykstra>
does nix need hardlinks / does bfs support hardlinks?
<nephele>
BFS does not support hardlinks
* phschafft
has some more questions popping up.
<nephele>
no phschafft! hardlinks are the devil! /s
<PulkoMandy>
kallisti5[m]: We will need a webkit buildbot at some point but there isn't enough of it upstreamed yet to be relevant
<kallisti5[m]>
PulkoMandy: ah yeah. I already have commitments from the Inc. on funding that. I think everyone understands how important webpositive is
<phschafft>
nephele: not about hardlinks or haiku. about software-that-shall-not-be-named ;)
<kallisti5[m]>
You give the word, and we'll do it
<Anarchos>
Begasus: yes !
<PulkoMandy>
Besides that, I think we're fine. WebKit development has to happen on github anyways as that's what WebKit uses. I'm not sure a Gerrit would be helpful except for nephele and other people who have complicated relationships with github
<zdykstra>
oh nice, haiku-os.org is back
<Anarchos>
zdykstra: yes, since a few hours
<zdykstra>
excellent, glad that was able to be resolved
<kallisti5[m]>
zdykstra: yup! Renewed this morning. I'm still going to start proposing to move it to a different registrar. The first expiration a year ago was unacceptable. The second one this morning is doubly unacceptable
<nephele>
PulkoMandy: when i started contributing to webkit upstream it did not require github. But anyway since git is distributed i don't think it matters if we self-host and webkit uses github
<PulkoMandy>
I started upstreaming some basic things, I guess I need to coordinate with whoever maintains the haiku gtkwebkit and qtwebkit ports and try to not break those with my changes, but that's a lot of different versions of webkit to compare and check :/
<kallisti5[m]>
I thought we had it under control, but auto-renew this domain must mean different things to namecheap
<nephele>
on the contrary, i could *not* contribute to webkit on github because my haikuwebkti fork interfered
<kallisti5[m]>
tldr; namecheap sucks, I suck
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<zdykstra>
In the past, I've purchased domains for 10 years at a time - is that something that can be done for haiku-os.org ?
<kallisti5[m]>
zdykstra: i'd love to. namecheap only lets us purchase 1 year
<kallisti5[m]>
the drop-down is grayed out for unknown reasons
<nephele>
PulkoMandy: qtwebkit is dead, not sure what you want to coordinate there?
<zdykstra>
wonder if it's a .org tld limitation
<nephele>
as in, also stuck on wkl and using a really old webkit version
<Begasus[m]>
qtwebkit dead?
<PulkoMandy>
nephele: I had no problem with that even if itws not very well documented (just don't use their scripts that do a lot of useless stuff)
<nephele>
Their scripts tried renaming my repo and were confused it did not have "webkit" in the uri, but haikuwebkit
<kallisti5[m]>
maybe? Unsure. My issue is i (and Ryan) have already spent a few hours trying to massage namecheap to auto-renew. I just don't trust them anymore at this point... and domain transfers take like 10 minutes.
<PulkoMandy>
However it was not possiple yet to upstream patches from haiku/haikuwebkit because granting hermissihns to webkit bots to an organization owned fork needs intervention from someone on webkit side
<PulkoMandy>
nephele: Yes, just don't use that script, it is not needed
<JulesEnriquez[m]>
kallisti5[m]: Do you have any alternative domain registrars in mind?
<Monni>
At least CSL allows registering .org domains for longer than 1 year...
<nephele>
PulkoMandy: anyhow, patches per e-mail kinda work. My problem is i use haikus mail, and that doesn't properly save the emails i send in IMAP, so now i can't view the patches you are reviewing when responding
<nephele>
also we have no ML, if you want to do that over a ML we could do that, but i'd much rather use gerrit. esepcially one where all haiku devs can respond on
<PulkoMandy>
Then just use haiku-development, or attach the patches to trac tickets?
<nephele>
Who do you expect to review the patches on trac tickets?
<PulkoMandy>
We can see about setting up something better when the fnow of patches become unmanageable
<nephele>
It already is for me, I am sitting on my pile of patches and those are not upstream.
<PulkoMandy>
Same people who review them on gerrit, probably me
<nephele>
and i can't just push a new version of just some of those and have them merged individually like that. Or just merge stuff
<nephele>
I'm really confused why you are so against gerrit now
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<kallisti5[m]>
<JulesEnriquez[m]> "Do you have any alternative..." <- I like hover and have good luck with them. I'm open though to anything reasonable
<nephele>
We pretty much can't develop webkit upstream in any case. We don't have Webkits *two* full-time dev requirement for a proper upstream port
<nephele>
I am out of work now but i doubt that counts ;)
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<kallisti5[m]>
nephele: i'll pay you $1 a month to develop webkit :-)
<nephele>
kallisti5[m]: I am fine until next march, but after that I would fall in the "proper" unemployment benefits, and i don't want that
<nephele>
If you pay me a bit more we can talk about it ;)
<Begasus>
€1?
<nephele>
Begasus: 1$ is like 0,7€ or something
<Begasus>
whoops, not following that :)
<kallisti5[m]>
ok, ok,. €2 is my final offer
* kallisti5[m]
is poor
<Begasus>
well I'm right then €1 is more then $1 ?
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<phschafft>
nephele: ref. mount: do you think we could get some patch in to display the mounts? maybe even with some machine readable option?
<phschafft>
(doesn't need to be fancy. something like \0-seperated values should work fine :)
<nephele>
I doubt such a patch would be rejected
<phschafft>
.... alternatively ... we could try fixing stat() ;)
<nephele>
for machine readable i don't see why you would want to call a command rather than calling a c function though
<phschafft>
but I think both are independently improvements. just that the mount one would be the easier start.
<phschafft>
I don't say that I don't want to call some C functions. however:
<nephele>
what's wrong with stat?
<phschafft>
this has more usecases than my little module. people have tried to parse the output of mount many times over the years. so there seem to be more usecases.
<nephele>
doesn't sound like a good idea to me ;)
<phschafft>
plus building it into mount can be a template for my package with the effect to have also helped others. :)
<phschafft>
and last but not least: my personal feelings towards the Haiku API are not about stability. Meaning if I have Haiku specific code outside of the Haiku eco system I fear it could rot.
<PulkoMandy>
There is already a mountvolume command to list mounted drives
<phschafft>
nephele: maybe not. but if you're for example in a shell script you have few other options than to parse the output of some command.
<nephele>
phschafft: sure? but if you just want to parse an unstable text format just parsing df would be equivalent in unstableness
<nephele>
don't see the benefit either way
<phschafft>
nephele: that is why I said maybe we can have some machine readable format as an option. :)
<phschafft>
PulkoMandy: thanks for the hint!
<nephele>
if you want machine readable and stable you should use the c api ;)
<phschafft>
so maybe this is not about mount but about mountvolume.
<phschafft>
(but maybe a tiny patch so mount hints to user to mountvolume ;)
<phschafft>
nephele: and how do I call that... e.g. from a shell?
<nephele>
invoke whatever tool you want that needs this info? If you just wanted to read it as a user you'd want the human readable version, no?
<phschafft>
nephele: the problem with stat() is that the dev and rdev values do not match.
<phschafft>
nephele: can't follow you. I understand what you say like this, and this makes no sense to me: if you want machine readable info then use the human readable info as you're a human!
<nephele>
phschafft: put it like this, the c api is machine readable. right. You are proposing to add a machine readable output to one specific command. But all of those commands are not machine readable. Should we make an exception for this command or implement a machine readable api for all commands?
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<phschafft>
nephele: and my point is that if you don't provide a machine readable output people will parse the non-machine readable one and then fire everywhere.
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<nephele>
yes, that's the problem with the shell interface
<phschafft>
yes.
<phschafft>
but as long as there is no replacement it's what it is.
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<phschafft>
and if all it needs to prevent the fire by having an option to replace spaces between fields in the output by \0 ...
<phschafft>
but that brings me back to my original problem: stat() is broken. all *I* need this for is to work around the broken stat().
<phschafft>
which is the stable C API ;)
<Begasus[m]>
k, time to settle on the cautch(?) :)
<phschafft>
so if you want me to use the C API, than we should fix stat().
<Begasus[m]>
will check in the morning on buildmasters progress
<nephele>
I'm not interested in adding that. It's not "just" one flag here, it's flags all the way for each commandline app :P
<phschafft>
Begasus[m]: nachti!
<Begasus[m]>
cu peeps!
<nephele>
if stat() is broken we can certainly fix it
<phschafft>
nephele: then feel free to have a look at it. the dev/rdev problem should be in similar regions than the fdatasync thing. and I must say I'm positivly surprised by your work on fdatasync!
<nephele_xmpp>
suprised? 😅
<phschafft>
I mean you pushed the problem thru all layers.
<phschafft>
that is like the solution I was hoping for, but not the one I expected.
<phschafft>
ref the stat: rdev seems to work as expected.
<nephele_xmpp>
Implementing it only in the C api as a fake call seems silly
<phschafft>
(but doesn't match dev).
<nephele_xmpp>
might aswell be honest that it's not supported then
<phschafft>
when a filesystem is mounted it should just remember which device it uses (the device's rdev value). and when asked for any stat() on that filesystem dev is just set to that value.
<nephele_xmpp>
but note i didn't actually add support for any fs to implement it ;€
<nephele_xmpp>
;)*
<phschafft>
this can be handled in the generic code, no need to add it to actual filesystem implementations.
<phschafft>
the only problem I see that *could* come up is what to do with filesystems that are not backed by a device (and with device I mean a thing in /dev, not real hardware)
<nephele>
So stat() returns a dev and this is set wrongly?
<nephele>
where do you get rdev? i assume not from stat?
<phschafft>
I noted that you pushed it in the kernel but not into any filesystems. still that is what I hoped for. :)
<phschafft>
if the data is not around anyway, you can just stat() on the block device you're mounting.
<phschafft>
to read rdev.
<nephele>
stat->st_dev = vnode->device;
<phschafft>
but I would expect the value to be around anyway as you need to access the device.
<nephele>
// the rdev field must stay unset for non-special files if (!S_ISBLK(stat->st_mode) && !S_ISCHR(stat->st_mode)) stat->st_rdev = -1;
<phschafft>
correct.
<phschafft>
the rdev is the device id for the device that is represented by a block/char device node.
<phschafft>
and dev is the device the file is stored on.
<nephele>
okay. so dev is the one the file is on itself?
<nephele>
and what is wrong with dev now?
<phschafft>
the value for dev does not match the rdev of the device the filesystem the file is part is on. (hey good luck reading that one!)
<phschafft>
let me give you an example:
<phschafft>
my /dev/disk/scsi/0/0/0/0 is rdev 0,11
<phschafft>
and that is where my /boot is on. so /dev/disk/scsi/0/0/0/0 is mounted on /boot
<phschafft>
files on /boot report a dev of 2.
<phschafft>
2 != 0,11
<nephele>
what do files on /Haiku report?
<nephele>
I assume the same?
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<phschafft>
/Haiku reports dev=1 (is a symlink) and /Haiku/ (the target of the symlink) reports a dev=3
<phschafft>
which is also what made me guess that dev is currently just a counter thing.
<phschafft>
like every time you mount something it gets incremented or something like that.
<nephele>
and / ?
<phschafft>
1
<nephele>
okay. So / has it's own implementation of stat
<phschafft>
(keep in mind that /Haiku (the symlink) is in /, so / and /xxx should report the same)
<nephele>
probably makes sense that it has a synthetic value
<phschafft>
yes.
<phschafft>
I think linux reserves some numbers in the device space for those kind of things.
<nephele>
any posix docs that rdve and dev should be the same?
<nephele>
for me to read
<phschafft>
let me check what POSIX has to say. But I must say that Haiku is the only system I know that does it differently.
<nephele>
sure. But posix can give me some info on how this is expected to work ;)
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<phschafft>
dev_t st_dev Device ID of device containing file.
<phschafft>
and it usess 'Device ID' here (not mount/filesystem/whatever).
<phschafft>
also:
<phschafft>
dev_t st_rdev Device ID (if file is character or block special).
<phschafft>
which I would read as that posix expects them to match.
<phschafft>
(beside that I have never seen it not match but on Haiku)
<phschafft>
side note: The st_ino and st_dev fields taken together uniquely identify the file within the system.
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<nephele>
let's see where vnode->device even comes from
<nephele>
but i will see... and look at that tommorow
<nephele>
but should probably make a ticket, no?
<phschafft>
a ticket is always a fine thing :)
<phschafft>
I think waddlesplash commented on it some weeks ago. but not sure.
<nephele>
i feel some of your issues would be solved faster if you file a ticket, this is like the third time you talked about rdev vs dev here ;) but without the context it was a bit difficult to understand
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<phschafft>
we talked about getting me an account for trac ;)
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<nephele>
It's your decisison :P
<nephele>
maybe sso will become a thing soon(tm)
<nephele>
seems trac does not yet have a proper oauth2 plugin
<phschafft>
my point still stands: I'm a random lion who somehow ended up in this channel.
<phschafft>
not even a user!
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<nephele>
"I fight for the user!"
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<phschafft>
I mean the only reason I'm here is because I like the logo.
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<Anarchos>
phschafft nice reason :)
<Anarchos>
phschafft i remember the hidous lizard which was the walter logo :)
* nephele
casts spell of unbranded Haiku on Anarchos's computer
<nephele>
I'm not interested in visiting google.com
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<phschafft>
the only teapot I trust is Mrs. Potts.
<erysdren>
what about the utah teapot
<nephele>
erysdren: People keep trying to missuse the haiku glteapot as a benchmark
<erysdren>
oh
<phschafft>
I mean that is the only reason people run it for.
<phschafft>
generally speacking, not specific to Haiku.
<erysdren>
why else would you run it?
<erysdren>
it only serves as a demo to prove that OpenGL is working.
<nephele>
The original reason was that it is cool that 3d models can be as complex as a teapot.
<nephele>
That an *api* is working yeah. It doesn't even prove you have graphics drivers ;)
<erysdren>
true :P
<phschafft>
;)
<phschafft>
plus it is just hard to actually benchmark anything complex.
<nephele>
benchmarking glteapot fps proves one thing: how fast the api can update glteapot. *nothing* else :)
<phschafft>
I mean I have hit so many smart-nesses when trying to figure out stuff like memory access speeds.
<nephele>
smart-nesses?
<phschafft>
like when you try a large memset it is possible that the process just tells the kernel and the kernel just tells the hardware.
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<phschafft>
like that the refresh controler of the RAM will zero it in it's idle time.
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<phschafft>
and as the kernel has the pages marked as pending for zeroing, the refresh control doesn't even need to jump on the job directly. it may even stop refeshing that section for a while as the data in there can invalidate.
<phschafft>
which results into stuff like the time it takes for a memset() being different for different room temps.
<phschafft>
as when the temp is higher it will cool the ram to focus on active sections over a pending zeroing in one section.
<nephele>
Reproduceable builds? better keep that temperature constant. :)
<phschafft>
and cooler ram can result in higher access speed.
<gordonjcp>
I've often wondered about liquid cooling a whole PC
<gordonjcp>
just, dunk the entire motherboard, CPU, RAM and all in a tank of oil
<nephele>
Yes, people do that
<nephele>
Gives them an aquarium aestehtic
<gordonjcp>
it'd need to be something thin, not conductive, and not particularly dangerous to handle
<gordonjcp>
diesel would be good but stinky
<nephele>
my new GPU is nice and quite though. It has *massive* heatsinks, but the fans only turn on when over a set Temp, so while using haiku they never run pretty much
<nephele>
gordonjcp: most oil works. Can use cooking oil if you want. but maybe that is not the color you'd like
<gordonjcp>
nephele: Citroën hydraulic fluid is a wonderful bright green colour
<gordonjcp>
they also use it in jet aircraft landing gear systems, and truck cab tilt systems
<nephele>
I think for what you want hydraulic fluid may be a bit expensive compared to the task
<gordonjcp>
yeah LHM is really expensive these days
<phschafft>
it must also be non solving to like plastic parts. and it's field parmaters must match.
<phschafft>
e.g. transparent to a wide range of frequencies.
<nephele>
only for smooth jazz frequencies :)
<phschafft>
if the hardware could hanle that I would suggest like nitrogen? ;)
<phschafft>
but I think that is a bit too cold.
<Skipp_OSX>
generally you use window washer fluid and it can come in a variety of colors...
<nephele>
I think either AMD or NVIDIA have done that for a publicity stunt
<phschafft>
nephele: have seen videos on that, yes.
<nephele>
Skipp_OSX: Oh man, I've dumped so much of that stuff during my work ;)
<phschafft>
it is possible. but I don't think it's ready for day-to-day use.
<nephele>
I hope you don't *need* this for day to day use
<nephele>
for your 7W setup
<phschafft>
nephele: btw. I also have seen liquid aluminium.
<phschafft>
but that is surely more for pre-heating.
<nephele>
phschafft: yeah, i know that. But where does the vacuum come into play? Normal water cooling is "just" moving water around with fans somewhere else to disspiate heat
<nephele>
but i don't see a problem with having a "fridge-like" compressor setup. Just, not sure if i would use water then
<phschafft>
nephele: the idea is that you flood the machine and then by boiling you can get the heat off.
<phschafft>
you can then e.g. have some large heat exchanger at the top.
<phschafft>
kind of like a heat pipe.
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<phschafft>
nephele: you said SSO may be soon^TM happening. any timeframe?
<nephele>
no. That's why i said (tm) ;)
<phschafft>
;)
<nephele>
Basically as soon as anyone (with python knowledge) wants to sacrifice themselves to code an oauth2 plugin for trac
<phschafft>
I... see.
<nephele>
or trac produces one themselves
<phschafft>
I recently heared the term 'grownup soon' as in 'never'.
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<BrunoSpr>
Not possible to update today?
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* coolcoder613
waves
<erysdren>
hi
<coolcoder613>
Have you seen my Haiku Gemini client?
<nephele>
have you misplaced it?
<coolcoder613>
No.
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<Halian>
o/
<Skipp_OSX>
\o
<Skipp_OSX>
\o/ \o- -o/ \o/
<phschafft>
when you go can-I-do-that-without-standing-up. And while you're still poking around wondering if that connector is the correct one your monitor turns black as it got some sync. now just need to manage to push the connector actually in... not just leting the sync lines touch ;)
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