<AlienSoldier>
the game is probably awsome, most pinball of that era are.
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<repetitivestrain>
i spent some time yesterday trying to build emacs with xlibe (i wrote a native port earlier, but building it with xlibe was fun as well)
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<repetitivestrain>
and it's missing some things emacs needs
<Begasus>
g'morning peeps
<repetitivestrain>
namely XkbRefreshKeyboardMapping, XkbFreeNames, XDisplayCells and XDestroySubwindows
<repetitivestrain>
i added configure checks for those functions to the emacs X11 code
<repetitivestrain>
but i think xlibe should implement them as well
<repetitivestrain>
since they are fairly important
<Begasus>
talking about xlibe?
<repetitivestrain>
yeah
<repetitivestrain>
and even if i build it, it doesn't start, apparently because the font registry is invalid
<Begasus>
ah, issue with texstudio also (regarding xkb)
<repetitivestrain>
and no font can be found
<repetitivestrain>
not a bad thing since there's a native haiku port, but again, xlibe development would likely benefit from this information
<repetitivestrain>
thanks
<repetitivestrain>
Begasus: would you elaborate?
<Begasus>
spamming *
<Begasus>
<Begasus_32> .obj/XKeyboard.o: In function `kb::XKeyboard::XKeyboard()':
<Begasus>
<Begasus_32> XKeyboard.cpp:(.text+0x2d9): undefined reference to `XkbIgnoreExtension'
<Begasus>
<Begasus_32> XKeyboard.cpp:(.text+0x346): undefined reference to `XkbAllocKeyboard'
<Begasus>
<Begasus_32> XKeyboard.cpp:(.text+0x13e8): undefined reference to `XkbLockGroup'
<Begasus>
<Begasus_32> .obj/XKeyboard.o: In function `kb::XKeyboard::set_group(int)':
<Begasus>
<Begasus_32> collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status
<Begasus>
<Begasus_32> Makefile:1124: recipe for target 'texstudio' failed
<Not-c620>
[haikuports/haikuports] threedeyes 31f580f - Telegram: bump version
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<countryboy>
are you angry with me?
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<waddlesplash>
Begasus: yeah that changed. now just "xcairo"
<waddlesplash>
repetitivestrain: don't worry about adding configure checks, just open a ticket. Not sure why the font database is invalid tho...? should be fine
<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] a49db24180f4 - Update translations from Pootle
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<Begasus>
waddlesplash, xcairo builds ok on 32bit, dependency on 64bit earlier wern't resolved, trying to build gegl (on 32bit failes to find a match for libjson_glib)
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<andreasdr[m]>
Wow. Quaternion using Haiku is nice.
<andreasdr[m]>
And I recently discovered stack and tile and such. Its amazing. I guess I can use this a lot for productivity increase.
<nephele>
quaternion is getting quite buggy for me on haiku recently... initial sync /always/ fails .-.
<andreasdr[m]>
Oh.
<andreasdr[m]>
Here it seems to work flawlessly.
<nephele>
also i cant read what the text is on the reactions, i should ask kitsune to fix the text color
<x512[m]>
nephele: Not faol for me.
<andreasdr[m]>
There was this other client too nheko or something
<x512[m]>
fail
<andreasdr[m]>
Is this working better?
<nephele>
err, well... nheko needs an update, i haven't ported the newest version yet :)
<andreasdr[m]>
Ok.
<nephele>
but the version that is there should work i think? I just don't use it because it doesn't really feel native (on account of using qml for almost everything)
<andreasdr[m]>
Oh. Would love to test the Wine Image right now.
<nephele>
What's stopping you?
<andreasdr[m]>
Actually I am not using much Windows Software.
<andreasdr[m]>
Nothing :D
<andreasdr[m]>
With Steam and such it could be fun to have Windows Games. But usually I use not much Windows software, rather OSS
<nephele>
I'm not sure what the point is of testing it before WoW64, but oh well. Maybe it works nicely on 32bit haiku already
<nephele>
x512: I don't suppose you made any progress with WoW64? iirc you had some idea on how it could be done
<andreasdr[m]>
Most Windowssoftware is 64bit now? Right? So it should work well on Haiku/amd64
<nephele>
No
<nephele>
almost all windows software is 32bit or 64bit 32bit mixed arch, that or 64bit applications depending on 32bit libraries
<x512[m]>
nephele: It seems that Wine WoW64 is not yet complete and still need host OS 32 bit support.
<nephele>
there is almost no software you can use with 64 bit only wine, /especially/ steam :P
<andreasdr[m]>
Oh sure. I heard of it. Steam is still 32 Bit mostly. What a thing ....
<andreasdr[m]>
Damn.
<nephele>
x512: iirc wow64 (from wines side) only needs some IPC for it, but yes we do need 32bit support, i was wondering what the progress was there
<x512[m]>
Or they already completed pure 64 WoW without host OS 32 bit *.so modules?
<nephele>
I don't know about the progress there, they did do a lot of that work for MacOS though
<x512[m]>
I have some idea how to run 32 bit Wine on 32 bit Haiku.
<nephele>
andreasdr: windows keeps pretty okay backwards compat, there is no incentive for windows devs not to use 32bit deps really
<x512[m]>
Does it already work on 64 bit only Mac OS?
<nephele>
x512: ah, so it's not done yet?
<nephele>
Yes crossover works on 64bit only macos
<nephele>
but it still uses the 32bit mode of the processor, just there are no 32bit macos libraries anymore
<nephele>
iirc anyhow
<andreasdr[m]>
We have 64 Bit CPUS since 2008. Dont see the point to use 32 bit X86 apps
<andreasdr[m]>
To me its a bug to not use 64 bit :DDD
<nephele>
porting libraries to 64bit is a cost, sometimes a really heavy one, why would for profit companies pay this?
<x512[m]>
I don't know so I asking. I never owned Apple products and I don't know what happens there.
<nephele>
there is almost no benefit to use 64bit over 32bit for many librariies
<andreasdr[m]>
Dont know how is that so fucking hard to port stuff from 32 bit to 64 bit.
<nephele>
x512: i don't have macos, i only read the blog of crossover :)
<andreasdr[m]>
But still, thats an opinion.
<nephele>
andreasdr: in proprietary codebases...?
<nephele>
any again, why spend money on something that gives you nothing
<nephele>
not to mention that, if you add a 64bit version but some other app needs the 32bit one still you now have to install the library twice
<andreasdr[m]>
Speed. Like 8 Registers more, like 64 bit registers which make sense a lot with Video files and such...
<x512[m]>
If it already run, it can be also done for Haiku.
<andreasdr[m]>
Fuck legacy :DDD
<nephele>
using 64bit mode doesn't magically make code faster... for many usecases it does not matter much
<andreasdr[m]>
Oh sorry.
<nephele>
and "not using 64bit always" /isnt/ the reason windows is so unbearably slow
<andreasdr[m]>
I know, but still, it usually makes code a few bit.
<x512[m]>
32 bit code segment selector should be exposed by Haiku kernel that is simple to implement.
<andreasdr[m]>
... a bit faster
<andreasdr[m]>
Numbers I remember were like 10-20% without much optimization, just by recompilation. But I heard this years ago. Must not be correct.
<x512[m]>
Most installers are 32 bit even for latest software.
<andreasdr[m]>
E.g. due to having double of the registers in CPU
<andreasdr[m]>
Thats crazy.
<andreasdr[m]>
Ok.
<andreasdr[m]>
Did not know that. Thank you Sirs.
<nephele>
If you need many registers this can be faster yes, but it really depends on the usecase :)
<andreasdr[m]>
I see.
<x512[m]>
For example 64 bit Firefox installer is 32 bit.
<nephele>
and windows software does not really have any incentive to be as fast as possible
<nephele>
... if windows alone runs shitty on hardware, why optimize, people will just buy a newer laptop
<x512[m]>
Windows 10 is extremely slow. Because of Window Defender, that is impossible to disable without hacking OS, opening a menu may take more than a minute.
<nephele>
... Yes that is quite funny, i went to an outlet store once to see windows 10 when it was new and just pressed the key to open the start menu, it sometimes took up to a minute
<x512[m]>
It sometimes BSOD more often than Haiku.
<nephele>
I fixed this laptop which was bootlooping with windows by installing haiku, it now feels fast again :(
<nephele>
:)
<nephele>
only the screen backlight can't be changed with haiku :/
<andreasdr[m]>
Need to reboot. Be back in 5 mins. Actually question. Does Haiku remember opened apps and the stack and tile status? For recover after new boot into same desktop? FreeBSD has this and MacOSX and its nice to have.
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<x512[m]>
Tracker can restore state on reboot.
<andreasdr[m]>
Nice. Ill test.
<Begasus>
g'night peeps
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<andreasdr[m]>
Good night Begasus
<nephele>
andreasdr: yes and no, it is expected that apps implement this thememselves, i think only tracker does though
<andreasdr[m]>
Ah Ok.
<andreasdr[m]>
Damn.
<andreasdr[m]>
Lets see. Step by Step.
<nephele>
maybe an OS wide option would make sense, but with the archiving support it is rather easy to put into applications i think
<nephele>
just not if you use qt apps or something funky like that
<nephele>
(I mean with that, haiku apps could restore to the exact state they were before you rebooted, qt apps cannot)
<x512[m]>
Maybe Qt can too? KDE seems able to do that.
<x512[m]>
Maybe some system-wide mechanism and protocol is needed.
<nephele>
I think kde just restores applications, but i don't think qt apps can unarchive to have the same view as before
<andreasdr[m]>
x512: Sounds feasible.
<nephele>
System wide mechanism would just be apps responding to the shutdown request by archiving, no? and some launch daemon way that remembers open apps and asks them with a special bmessage to launch and unarchive themselves or so?
<x512[m]>
I mean sending some message that each app responds by providing its state data. Some system service will send messages on exit and store recieved data in one specific place. When restoring, system service will launch applications with some special restore message (it is possible to send first message to application before main loop starts).
<nephele>
Is there an advantage to use a central place to store this? It sounds more easily corruptible than just letting apps store it themselves
<andreasdr[m]>
RE
<x512[m]>
It should be global setting to store app state on exit or not. Also user may want to manage saved apps state.
<andreasdr[m]>
Wow. Just installed Telegram. How cool is that.
<andreasdr[m]>
Unfortunatly we dont have Signal and they have no Webapp.
<nephele>
I don't see how you would ever do that, it's only valid to have a saved state /after/ shutdown and /before/ boot, when would users manage anything...?
<nephele>
Signal also wants a phone number... bah
<andreasdr[m]>
Thats true.
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<nephele>
though telegram blows everything out of the water by how terrible they are, they really set a new low bar
<x512[m]>
It may be possible to save app state once and restore multiple times. Also it may be desired do not save state, but only restore.
<x512[m]>
For Lavapipe it is technically not required, but it use common code with RADV in my WSI add-on.
<andreasdr[m]>
Ok. I have full trust in you guys. :)
<andreasdr[m]>
Looking forward to your progressssss.
<x512[m]>
Maybe GLFW with Lavapipe Vulkan rendering will be available soon in a week or two.
<andreasdr[m]>
Yaaaa. That would be nice. <3
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<andreasdr[m]>
No hurry from my side though.
<Skipp_OSX>
hooray for 3d acceleration we made it boys
<x512[m]>
WSI add-on currently works with temporary scheme with SetBitmapHook. In theory it should be VideoStreams VideoProducer, but GPU buffer sharing is not yet ready.
<cocobean>
x512: Are your additional libdrm patches avail online?
<x512[m]>
You mean libdrm2? It is mostly independent code and RadeonGfx client. It is tightly tied to RadeonGfx.
<cocobean>
Ok. Nice.
<x512[m]>
It is not final architecture. In theory, new accelerant add-on API should be introduced and libdrm should use that. Or even abandon libdrm and use accelerant directly from Mesa, but it more work and it probably better to left it as is for now.
<andreasdr[m]>
Nephele: I just checked Quaternions About box. Is this you there????
<nephele>
might be
<andreasdr[m]>
Nicely done.
<andreasdr[m]>
x512: Ok
<nephele>
or maybe, i am an imposter ;)
<cocobean>
So, we can use this same model for Intel Gfx 3D driver?
<andreasdr[m]>
Naaaaaaa
<andreasdr[m]>
nephele: Naaaaaaa
<andreasdr[m]>
To my understanding one could do the same with Intel APU drivers. Using LIBDRM and Vulkan like driver interface to Intel driver?
<andreasdr[m]>
But for now I dont have enough knowledge. Just trying to communicate here.
<andreasdr[m]>
As I heard Intel also releases a full GPU soon.
<andreasdr[m]>
That could also be interesting.
<Skipp_OSX>
don't hold your breath
<x512[m]>
In theory Haiku accelerant has the same role as libdrm in Linux.
<andreasdr[m]>
For now they only had APU.
<andreasdr[m]>
I thought libdrm was the userland interface between GL/VK. And it communicates with your new kernel driver x512?
<andreasdr[m]>
Haha. In 3D space? Imposter/Billboard. Yes. True.
<cocobean>
Haiku kernel DRM<->libdrm (userland)
<andreasdr[m]>
Yes.
<andreasdr[m]>
Thats what I thought too.
<andreasdr[m]>
MESA -> libdrm > kernel DRM
<andreasdr[m]>
Thats what I thought
<x512[m]>
libdrm is a wrapper over Linux kernel GPU driver ioctls. In my libdrm2 it do not call kernel, it translates mmap/munmap/ioctl into RadeonGfx protocol messages. RadeonGfx is a userland process trat control GPU and it has the same role as Linux amdgpu kernel driver.
<andreasdr[m]>
But usually with linux it works like "MESA -> LIBDRM -> KERNEL DRM"?
<andreasdr[m]>
I think your way to do it is perfect for Haiku. Its progressive. Its rather minimalistic. It works. 100 points.
<x512[m]>
Yes, in Linux libdrm calls kernel DRM subsystem.
<andreasdr[m]>
And you got rid of lots of OpenGL stuff that would be required
<andreasdr[m]>
Nice.
<andreasdr[m]>
I would have not been able to come up with such a solution. Too less knowledge.
<x512[m]>
RadeonGfx can be easily restarted for testing and in case of crashes.
<andreasdr[m]>
Nice.
<andreasdr[m]>
Everybody loves "no legacy" code :DDD
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<nephele>
Dunno about you, but as a user i want to use applications, i don't really care if they use "legacy" apis. OpenGL isn't bad
<andreasdr[m]>
OpenGL is nice, but a bit outdated. As we gained more CPU hardware threads and OpenGL is not adopting. For me OpenGL4+ with Contexts per CPU thread would be ideal.
<andreasdr[m]>
Thats why I programmed a VK renderer for tdme2.
<andreasdr[m]>
Also Apple marked GL as deprecated.
<andreasdr[m]>
VK is way to heavy for beginners at least.
<andreasdr[m]>
But you learn something about GPUs
<nephele>
I don't care what apple marks as deprecated to be honest
<nephele>
they don't support vulkan either, so you can just use their api instead
<andreasdr[m]>
Well if you want to sell your software for MacOSX you would maybe need to care.
<andreasdr[m]>
There is Metal via VK.
<andreasdr[m]>
It works with TDME2
<nephele>
I just want to play the games i already have
<andreasdr[m]>
but is a bit slow
<x512[m]>
Zink is available.
<andreasdr[m]>
Yes.
<andreasdr[m]>
All perfect man.
<jezek2>
I'm not thrilled from any 3D API, all the APIs fail in an inability to run on older HW (it either runs or not instead of being just slower)
<andreasdr[m]>
Well you can get very far with GL3+/VK nowadays. I know people are ranting, but I dont care, I just continue to develop our engine.
<andreasdr[m]>
Even cross platform you can get very far.
<andreasdr[m]>
Actually for me this is just stuff that has to be done. I also do not care much. :DDD
<andreasdr[m]>
Like writing a VK or GL renderer backend. It just needs to be done.
<nephele>
jezek2: that is true... heh... I remember kde 4 beeing really unusable on a laptop, and extremely slow unless you /disable/ hardware acceleration, because it tried to do everything with opengl
<andreasdr[m]>
Oh
<andreasdr[m]>
Crazy.
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<nephele>
Haiku makes all my older laptops run nice and quick :)
<x512[m]>
I agree that Haiku GUI should still run fine without acceleration.
<andreasdr[m]>
Yes.
<nephele>
... even that wierd netbook with windows 7 started edition, god was that slow with windows...
<nephele>
(and windows 7 started had some funky stuff like not beeing able to change desktop backgrounds unless you upgrade to the home or pro version...)
<andreasdr[m]>
I have stopped beeing so much retro about computer hardware, even though I have a pimped G5. These machines takes lot of power but dont give much in terms of performance.
<andreasdr[m]>
But sure, nice if you can use older hardware and get something done with it
<nephele>
Why does performance matter if they are fast enough for everything i need?
<andreasdr[m]>
Yes. Then: 100 points for you and your hardware.
<andreasdr[m]>
I have nothing more to say about it.
<nephele>
My dayjob is in the waste disposal industry, so i'm certainly more disposed towards the reuse way :)
<andreasdr[m]>
Oh I see.
<andreasdr[m]>
:(
<nephele>
why the sad smiley?
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<andreasdr[m]>
Disposal industry?
<andreasdr[m]>
I need to leave. Going to grab a beer in a bar :DDD See you later. Thank you for the nice talk.
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<fremen>
hello :) i'm new to haiku so i dont know much about its internals, im messing with fusesmb and i edited fusesmb.conf to add some configs but the file bet overwritten when i reload the service.. any hint? :)
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<Anarchos>
About System crashes...
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