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<andreasdr[m]>
Hi.
<andreasdr[m]>
I see lot of serious action here :D
<andreasdr[m]>
Testing now my USB WIFI dongle.
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<andreasdr[m]>
Sirs. It works! A 4 year old random Amazon USB WIFI dongle for 10 bucks :D
<andreasdr[m]>
Cool
<jessicah>
nice :)
<andreasdr[m]>
Hi jessicah
<jessicah>
hi andreasdr[m]
<andreasdr[m]>
:)
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<skirst>
PulkoMandy: to add to the WindowStack discussion from earlier, probably shouldn't allow modal windows to be added. that gave me some interesting results. not sure if it's a qt issue though
<skirst>
PulkoMandy: i'll get familiar with the ticket system and file a proper bug report
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<Anarchos>
hello
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<Anarchos>
find_directory(B_SYSTEM_TEMP_DIRECTORY,...) keeps returning '/boot/system/apps' . I compile from a source/work/... directory in a haikuports clone subdir.
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qwebirc89040 is now known as max01983
<max01983>
finally i got wifi to work, bought 2 sticks today, both realtekwifi. Of course, only one works... but at least it works now (on nightly, not on beta3). The one with the RTL8192 shows up, but can't connect to the network (and after trying to connect the stick totally dies offs even the led goes dead). The other one with the RTL8188 at least seems to work.
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<max01983>
So 1/4 working (Atheros, Ralink, RTL8192 didn't work), only the 8188 one works. Good that i didn'tfully trust the person that wrote "realtekwifi USB support done in hrev55907" in #13130and bought two of them with different chipsets. Btw, if he/she is reading here: Most TL-WN727N use Ralink rather than Realtek...
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<Niklas[m]12>
I think support for other manufacturers will come soon if they're already supported by FreeBSD
<Niklas[m]12>
The complicated part was adapting the compatibility layer for FreeBSD network drivers to work with USB devices.The Realtek driver was only the first proof that it works,other FreeBSD drivers will follow.
<Niklas[m]12>
If some specific chipsets which *should* be supported by the Realtek driver still don't work,that can also be issues with the upstream FreeBSD drivers.
<max01983>
Last time i used a BSD was like 5+ Years ago, pretty sure Ralink worked back then. Can't blame you for lack of support of atheros, that has always been a problem on every os (even Linux antil they imported a few years ago), but i clearly would talk that "Wireless drivers are supported by our FreeBSD compatibility layer as well, and they should also work fine." off of the FAQ, in my personal opinion
<Niklas[m]12>
Again,for now it's only the Realtek driver that was imported from FreeBSD.Others may follow soon,probably it's only a few more days to wait
<max01983>
it's just strange that the 8192 shows up, even shows the network, but when trying to connect it completely dies off. so really, good i bought two of these wifi suckers
<Niklas[m]12>
Wifi can be really painful sometimes
<max01983>
thats true, remember when i switched back in my old netBSD notbook the card from Atheros to Intel, coz there was no support in sight at all
<Niklas[m]12>
I have two similar types of Realtek USB sticks.The RTL8188CUS sticks only work with Linux but not FreeBSD and the RTL8188EU (or EUS,can't really remember) only work with FreeBSD but not Linux.Well,both are detected and can scan for networks,but the connection doesn't work if I use the wrong one.And I still don't know why.
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<max01983>
Anyway, i try Haiku now for once in a year since around 2015, and finally it seems i can use it at least with hrev 55914 that i booted from USB stick, so just two quick newbie questions: 1.) I already configured the beta3 on my harddisk to fit my looks (icon arrangement, font sizes etc,) how can i export that so if i put nightly on it it will have same look? 2.) how can i tell it to automatically use failsafe graphics drive (bcoz of the
* max01983
goes to hang up laundry in the meantime
<Niklas[m]12>
You can simply upgrade the existing Beta3 install by switching to the Nightly repository and doing a full upgrade with Software Updater.
<extrowerk>
1.) I already configured the beta3 on my harddisk to fit my looks (icon arrangement, font sizes etc,) how can i export that so if i put nightly on it it will have same look? <- install over it.
<extrowerk>
2.) how can i tell it to automatically use failsafe graphics drive (bcoz of the <- i assume your hw is not supported, and a normal boot results in black-screen or similar unusable graphics. in this case you can blacklist the related driver: https://www.haiku-os.org/guides/daily-tasks/disable-package-entries
<max01983>
Thank you, Niklas[m]12, extrowerk and humdinger - Appreciate it!
<max01983>
Finally, tomorrow, when i cam back from my doctors appointment, i will install the first usable Haiku OS - waited so many years for it to happen ;-)
<humdinger>
congrats, max01983 :)
<humdinger>
thoug it must be said that that's your personal situation.
<max01983>
A 2nd computer would be nice, bcoz i guess I will have to use $_other_OS still very frequently *lol*
<humdinger>
I, for example, experienced that over a decade ago..
<nephele>
(angeber :P)
<humdinger>
:)
<max01983>
I tried to use it every year or so for the last 5+ years, but then it always came to unusable. Last thing i remember was that i couldn't boot it at all from a stick, coz there was no working EFIS support, and sadly this cheap crap notebook is unable of legacy bios boot (shame on you Acer, will never buy from you again)
<nephele>
There are efi loaders that load cms for you aswell iirc
<humdinger>
"...unusable for my specific aka crappy hardware situation" you should saay.
<max01983>
Ich erinnere mich gerne an die guten alten NetBSD-1.52-Zeiten *grins*
<Niklas[m]12>
Older Laptops are generally preferrable for Haiku
<max01983>
nephele: cms?
<nephele>
compatibility mode support, or something, what efi calls bios boot under efi
<Niklas[m]12>
I have a older Acer TravelMate which works perfectly with Haiku,the newer Medion Akoya doesn't (and is UEFI-only)
<nephele>
Ironically i have to enable it for my efi hardware when booting haiku with efi or the firmware never turns on the display...
<nephele>
>Older Laptops are generally preferrable for Haiku
<nephele>
I'd disagree here
<max01983>
I only have this crappy machine, and i'm not able to buy new one, priority for now is to visit my long-term long distance girfriend for the first time
<nephele>
I wouldn't say no to an Oled laptop :P
<Niklas[m]12>
I wouldn't say yes to something that doesn't support legacy boot anymore :P
<nephele>
max01983: I think running haiku on older hw is a great use of it, i personally run it on a pentium m computer aswell
<nephele>
Woo! second webkit commit today in the commit que
<Niklas[m]12>
(Except when I only need it for chatting while in bed,where crappy Linux is sufficient)
* humdinger
is idle: BRB
<max01983>
nephele: didn't know there is something like that cms, but i'll look into it soon. but for now i'm just happy. But really, shame on acer for not having legacy boot support.
<nephele>
well, efi binaries can implement the support to load older MBR code, right
<nephele>
but if you want this done "properly" you need to do it in the firmware
<Niklas[m]12>
It's not only Acers fault.Most newer devices dropped Legacy Boot support.
<nephele>
since some stuff cannot be done by efi binaries, for example efi only lets you set a single mode once at launch, while MBR lets you set vesa specified modes
<nephele>
I honestly don't care about mbr boot, i am happy that efi makes multi-os booting easy and uncomplicated
<nephele>
well, except for linux, but that is more so because they do stupid stuff
<max01983>
tbh, all this efi and GPT-UUID stuff is too new for me. And my priorities have shifted too in the last then years, away from computer to more a horticultural thing ("Gärtnern und Pflanzen beim Wachsen zusehen und so... man wird halt alt...")
<nephele>
gpt is available for mbr too
<nephele>
and UUID's adressing is not required to be done for the end user... linux does it becasue of servers that have countless disks :P
<max01983>
then = 10 years, sorry
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<Niklas[m]12>
I think UEFI is great for other architectures like ARM,where you needed a special build for every single hardware configuration before.But on x86 the good old BIOS was just simpler and easier to setup than UEFI.
<nephele>
simpler for whom?
<nephele>
the OS?
<Niklas[m]12>
For me
<nephele>
the end user then?
<Niklas[m]12>
I don't have to create a EFI partition and copy the EFI files,I simply hit "Install to boot sector"
<nephele>
i don't see why, efi is much nicer, it allows to give pretty named entries for OS, allows multibooting on it's own, etc
<nephele>
Install to boot sector is "Pick a disk and hope the first 512mb aren't needed by the partition table"
<Niklas[m]12>
I only use one OS per device,so that doesn't count for me ;)
<nephele>
EFI is definetely much cleaner
<nephele>
Having to copy efi files or create the thing manually is really more of a UI fault of haiku
<Niklas[m]12>
I know that it could and should be improved in Haiku,but on Linux it's more complicated,too
<nephele>
Linux installers are generally... uhh, barely functional
<Niklas[m]12>
I mean,it has gotten easier.When I set up my first UEFI-only device,it was hard to find an bootloader for Arch that does that.Syslinux doesn't (or didn't,maybe they do now,don't know) so I had to install rEFInd and set up everything by hand.
<nephele>
installing refind is basically unzipping it into the correct dir :D
<nephele>
much much easier than trying to install grub
<Niklas[m]12>
Now they ship systemd-boot with that evil Systemd bloatware nightmare,which installs by itself and supports EFI
<nephele>
systemd-boot is just gummiboot
<nephele>
you can also just use efistub to have the kernel boot from efi directly
<Niklas[m]12>
GRUB is *very* complicated,yes
<nephele>
grub is also, in my view, obsolete in the EFI world
<Niklas[m]12>
I never understood how to configure it,so I simply used Syslinux which is much easier to configure and works just as good
<nephele>
somehow people keep finding incredible complex setups to justify it, but then force this on everyone because of that... even if most distros now hide it by default, tell it to not set a video mode etc etc
<nephele>
Should just use reFind if you have multiple OS and be done with it
<nephele>
maybe we can ship refind with a haiku theme if we detect multiple OS :P
<Niklas[m]12>
Seriously,I think the best option is just don't use Linux if you don't have to :P
<max01983>
to be honest, i don't even understand why there now has to be this partition with the bootx64.efi files and all that. Don't even know what its good for
<Niklas[m]12>
We don't need rEFInd,we already have a own bootloader that supports multiple entries.It's BIOS-only I think,but it can be modernized.
<nephele>
Sorry, but no
<nephele>
efi boot loader with multiple entries and mbr bootloader is simply two completely distinct softwares
<Niklas[m]12>
I also don't understand why having this partition should be better than just having it invisible in the master boot record
<nephele>
there is no need to "modernize" ours, it does exactly what it should do
<max01983>
if i didn#t even had an old "tmp" folder in that efi partition i renamed to Haiku, i'm not sure if i would have been even able to install it. for now i just won't touch it anymore
<nephele>
the question is if you want to write an entirely new one, for efi, while refind is already available (and we don't need to care as much if someone else maintains it)
<Niklas[m]12>
Haiku always did its own thing instead of steeling (bad) stuff from Linux.That's what makes it unique and interesting.I think we should stick to that concept.
<micken>
waddlesplash: status report: I am tinkerining with paging system. I decided not to go with the aarch64 one because I understood the 32bit system better. So I bolted it on the bootloader mmu setup. There are several problem right now. For paging stuff , I am a bit worried about indexing which is supposed to be a 32bit number constructed by va <<20. I have my va's in 64 bit , so I converted them (only using
<micken>
lower 32bit word), but that gives me not so uniqe index values. When starting up paging in kernel I always hit the same translation level 2 error on a address. It can be produced in boot loader buy just printing the contents. Other adresses works or not ..
<nephele>
max01983: the little partition avoids some more annoying problems of mbr, for one that there can only be "ONE TRUE" bootloader on a device, leading to such complex messes like grub, making oses conflict with booting etc. in efi your bootloaders can live next to each other on the partition instead, so you can have conflict free booting easily
<nephele>
Niklas[m]12: That's untrue, we have taken code from linux repeatedly, as has linux from BSD, and BSD from linux. We ship bash in the default install, our libc is based on glibc, we use ffmpeg code for media etc. We have taken linux code often, and there is no reason to duplicate work if a good solution already exists
<nephele>
ReFind fits the usecase of "support booting severall efi capable OSes, present them graphically, and have the user know exactly what they are booting" Very nicely already
<Niklas[m]12>
For librarys that's true,but the stuff that the user sees is all Haikus own
<nephele>
Why should we take up the work to identify the thousand distinct linux distros if Refind already does this?
<max01983>
"Niklas[m]12> Seriously,I think the best option is just don't use Linux if you don't have to :P" - I would love to, but what are the alternatives? I dropped NetBSD a long time ago coz of missing hardware support (and also the new version numbering thing). VMS would be cool, but i don't consider it a real option
<Niklas[m]12>
Yes,NetBSD has fallen far behind unfortunately.
<nephele>
And realistically: you will never see the haiku gui in the efi loader, so why bother with it? We should investigate if refind is a good option before deciding to write our own tool just because we can
<nephele>
(also, who wants to write it? .-.)
<waddlesplash>
refind is great, I use it on all my systems
<waddlesplash>
their install instructions are superb
<max01983>
nephele: Didn't mbr just give options for "jump there and execute from there then"? I guess that's all a boouloader needs to be capable of
<Niklas[m]12>
I tried using it multiple times because I found their Wikipedia entry very interesting,but I didn't get a usable system on *any* of my dozens of devices.The best was a old RasPi 3 where only the Wifi was missing,but the ARM32 repo is small...
<nephele>
waddlesplash: I should install it now, actually, it's much nicer than hoping to press f9 in the right moment to get the horrible EFI gui to select the entry
<waddlesplash>
yeah, yo ubasically just need to install it and "that's it"
<waddlesplash>
it automatically scans your EFI partition and picks up all available loaders
<waddlesplash>
including Haiku's, Windows, Linux, etc.
<nephele>
artition, or similar, and execute the real bootloader to do the heavy lifting"
<nephele>
max01983: Well, no. See the FreeBSD bootloader can boot severall distinct ZFS states, so can the illumos one where it came from. we do this too but without the filesystem. the boot loader has to offer to enter an encryption key etc. it just goes on and on with new requirements that did not exist before. they never fit in the mbr block so bootloaders basically put some code in there to "try and find our OS p
* max01983
notes to himself: look for refind
<nephele>
with efi this is no longer neccesary
<Niklas[m]12>
max01983: My favorite alternative to Linux is OpenIndiana,a fork of Oracle Solaris when it was still open-source.Their driver support is also not that great (especially Wifi) but much better than NetBSD.If that doesn't work,then there's still FreeBSD.It's a bit too mainstream and boring for me,but better than Linux and they have drivers for a lot of hardware (but still not as much as Linux).
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<max01983>
nephele: I'm not sure if that different ZFS thing is so much of a value, simple bootloader could just tell "jump to there where there is the choice to select ZFS state" and then go on
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<nephele>
This doesn't work so good if the zfs state is encrypted aswell
<nephele>
and in general this is the bootloaders job, what is the point of building a trampoline if you can do it directly though?
<max01983>
Niklas[m]12: OpenSolaris, I remember that. Was so promising, but as always with Sun, never can rely on them ("We'll keep it open and supportet forever..")
<nephele>
they did though
<nephele>
it's the oracle that broke it
<max01983>
nephele: I thought of the bootloader always of being like a trampoline, but to be honest, I'm just lacking knowledge to have a valid conversation about it
<Niklas[m]12>
Sun tried their best,but they had to do what Oracle wanted after they bought it
<Niklas[m]12>
But OpenSolaris still lives on as OpenIndiana and it's a community-driven distribution that I find really interesting.
<Niklas[m]12>
Currently using it on one of my desktops and planning to use it for my servers soon.I also help them with their repo but I still have to learn a lot lol
<max01983>
At least on a "normal" computer not everything is as band and encrypted as on my android phone. I remember the days when that TPM discussion came up (early 2000s i guess) _ good this didn't happen, but we're on the best way to it. So many software already only for rent/subscription etc
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<max01983>
We'll, for now I'll just have one more beer, then eat maybe a snack, then go to bed i guess. But it's nice here, i really have to say, my impressions here are good
<nephele>
Niklas: the os group is called Illumos
<max01983>
also didn't expect this channel to be so well populated xD
<nephele>
OpenIndiana is a specific distribution
<Niklas[m]12>
Illumos is the Kernel and OpenIndiana the distribution which continues good old OpenSolaris,while other distributions have other purposes.
<nephele>
no, illumos is the name of the system(s)
<Niklas[m]12>
Sure,Illumos is better integrated than Linux
<nephele>
Illumos is illumos
<nephele>
it simply is not "just the kernel"
<Niklas[m]12>
But still there are multiple distributions on top of Illumos,like OpenIndiana,OmniOS and many others
* humdinger
has returned
<nephele>
there are multiple distributions in the illumos family
<nephele>
just like there are multiple OSes in the BSD family
<max01983>
Btw, from what I've seen there's sadly no Ruby anymore for Haiku? Wouldn't Haiku and Ruby be the perfect couple?
<Niklas[m]12>
The BSDs are developed independly from each other nowadays but were developed from the same codebase.The illumos distributions all use only one Illumos
<nephele>
The illumos distributions have their own codebases and develop independently
<Niklas[m]12>
It's still one codebase that is used by all distributions and that's developed in a central repository
<Niklas[m]12>
No
<nephele>
Also, a single repository is the literal anthesis to how linux is developed
<nephele>
anyhow, this discussion is getting a bit offtopic :D
<Niklas[m]12>
Is that true for all distributions or only OmniOS?
<Anarchos>
hello
<nephele>
Hi anarchos
<nephele>
Niklas: I have not investigated further, but as i understand it they are seperate distributions
<nephele>
why would you even have a seperate distribution if you had the same source tree...?
<Anarchos>
nephele i am very proud to use daily our radeon_hd brightness controller :)
<Niklas[m]12>
That looks a bit weird to me,because OmniOS seems to take all updates from upstream Illumos and they don't seem to merge back,but the OpenIndiana people say that the efforts of the commercial OmniOS are a big help for Illumos development and help OpenIndiana as well.
<nephele>
Pat yourself on the back for pushing it through ;)
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<Niklas[m]12>
Why would you even have seperate distributions if you had the same Linux kernel...oh wait
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<nephele>
maybe because the kernel is irrelevant?
<Niklas[m]12>
At least OpenIndiana uses upstream Illumos directly,but that may be because they share a lot of contributors
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<nephele>
Heh, went through my screenshots of haiku to find a background image for refind, and was reminded of all the HTML exploits i found in nheko, hehe
<max01983>
radeon_hd brightness controller ?
<nephele>
I wrote a wip patch once so you can use brightness controls with radeon_hd if the atombios exposes this, and anarchos fixed it up, tested it and got it merged
<nephele>
on some laptops this gives you brighntess controls iirc
<max01983>
cool, that sounds nice
<nephele>
(like mine, ironically that the laptop broke long before i could test it! damn trash shells!)
<max01983>
well, my radeon sets automatically to maxbrightness (including white screen of death) ;)
<max01983>
anyway, have to go now, coz of the appointment tomorrow
<Anarchos>
max01983 if you launch the preferences Screen app, you should see a brightness slider, if your card supports it
<max01983>
it was nice to be here
<max01983>
Anarchos: Thanks, ill look at it tomorrow then, when my new hrev55something is on the plate