marcan changed the topic of #asahi to: Asahi Linux: porting Linux to Apple Silicon macs | "Does XXX work yet?": https://alx.sh/fs | GitHub: https://alx.sh/g | Wiki: https://alx.sh/w | Topics: #asahi-dev #asahi-re #asahi-gpu #asahi-alt #asahi-stream #asahi-offtopic | Keep things on topic | Logs: https://alx.sh/l/asahi
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<pitust>
marcan: "ALSA routes are probably wrong" how should they be configured? also, "aplay output.wav -D 'sysdefault:CARD=AppleJ293'" doesn't produce any audio either (not sure if that's the correct scenario or not)
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<pitust>
i got about one second of audio, then i ^C'ed aplay, and now no more audio happens
<kidplayer666>
can anyone explain why is there apparently so much on cache instead of on ram??
<PaulFertser>
kidplayer666: normally Linux uses ~all free RAM for caching access to block devices because why not. Caches can always be dropped right away when RAM is needed.
<kidplayer666>
How do I do it
<kidplayer666>
Because I do not have enough ram
<PaulFertser>
Caches are dropped automatically, no need to worry about it.
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<sven>
looks like at some point you ran something that required much more than 8 gb ram though because your swap is full
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<kidplayer666>
sven: well yeah, but it’s really weird
<kidplayer666>
(I was running slp microvm and trying to run Hearts of Iron IV)
<Nefsen402>
Moving the swap back into ram when all of it is not being accessed doesn't make sense. It will consume power for no reason and just means it needs to go back into swap when something starts running again
<chaos_princess>
if you want to manually kick everything out of swap, just do swapoff/swapon on the swap device
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<Nefsen402>
what does the kernel do if you turn of swap and there isn't enough physical ram space for the swap? Does the oom killer go ham?
<chaos_princess>
pretty much
<Nefsen402>
but also oof a modern machine with 8gb of ram
<kidplayer666>
(It made eventually my computer crash, due to lack of ram the first time I tried)
<kidplayer666>
(Second time it didn’t allow me to click on the button of some announcement)
<kidplayer666>
Nefsen402: I did not choose it
<Nefsen402>
more of a criticism to apple
<Nefsen402>
supprised they aren't marketing a 8gb machine with 8gb of swap as a 16gb machine yet
<kidplayer666>
Nefsen402: don’t give them ideas
<kidplayer666>
Please
<kidplayer666>
“You can download more ram”
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<janneg>
Nefsen402: aren't they already? "A Mac with 8GB is like a PC with 16GB of r
<janneg>
RAM"
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<kidplayer666>
Oh yeah
<PaulFertser>
kidplayer666: why do you have so many VM processes though?
<kidplayer666>
I don’t know
<kidplayer666>
I should just have steam and HOI open
<PaulFertser>
I suggest when you're low on RAM you make (h)top sort by memory (not CPU) and then kill whatever you do not know what you need for :)
<j`ey>
one per VCPU
<j`ey>
seems like 8 threads, 8 cpus?
<kidplayer666>
Might be
<kidplayer666>
PaulFertser: I’ll try that
<kidplayer666>
But there’s a chance I’ll kill some crucial processes :P
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<PaulFertser>
Has anyone tried doing AP+STA on same phy, does it work for you? Or connecting in STA mode to two APs on different channels at the same time?
<axt>
janneg: but websites are not smaller either.
<kidplayer666>
And sorting by ram would probably be all Krun microvms
<PaulFertser>
kidplayer666: and how exactly do you tell you "do not have enough ram"?
<kidplayer666>
PaulFertser: lots of swap, and everything grinds to a halt
<kidplayer666>
And I need to force a restart
<PaulFertser>
kidplayer666: sorting by RAM should allow you to see what's in swap and why.
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<PaulFertser>
kidplayer666: if you're using a web browser without noscript and have many tabs chances are the damn scripts will fill all the RAM eventually, no matter how much you got.
<Nefsen402>
kidplayer666: Is it real swap or compressed zram?
<kidplayer666>
PaulFertser: all I had was the microvm
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<xihuanni>
hello everybody
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<pitust>
i think updating to
<pitust>
mesa-asahi 20231213 broke firefox
<pitust>
ill have to downgrade most likely
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<kidplayer666>
I dunno why the installer did not suggest it
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<kidplayer666>
I’ll configure at least 16GB
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<kidplayer666>
Nefsen402: what is the difference though?
<Nefsen402>
zram is a virtual swapfile that is backed by ram through a compression algorithm
<Nefsen402>
It's not actually using your disk
<Nefsen402>
Much of the "need to force restart" scenarios would probably evaporate with a bit of actual swap
<kidplayer666>
Jesus christ
<kidplayer666>
That probably explains it all…
<kidplayer666>
I thought it was going to like a file on disk
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<Nefsen402>
my install came with a 8gb zram swap
<kidplayer666>
Same
<Nefsen402>
But I have a 32gb machine so it's fine
<kidplayer666>
Only Zram
<kidplayer666>
Ah ok
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<kidplayer666>
I think it could suggest some swap
<Nefsen402>
definitely
<kidplayer666>
If you got 16GB or 8
<kidplayer666>
It could say “hey, I noticed you don’t have a lot of ram, a bit of swap will make for a better experience
<kidplayer666>
“
<Nefsen402>
configuring a swap is like two commands and you can disable it later or give it more
<kidplayer666>
I just used Gparted
<Nefsen402>
I would probably do a swapfile
<Nefsen402>
donno if there's anything special you need to do with btrfs
<kidplayer666>
Meh
<Nefsen402>
I think in the past btrfs didn't support swapfiles but it does now
<kidplayer666>
Swap partition always works
<kidplayer666>
And not like resizing is hard
<kidplayer666>
And now it’s much better
<kidplayer666>
Nefsen402: thanks
<kidplayer666>
Now it actually runs
<Nefsen402>
you need to put your swap partition under /etc/fstab so that it's persistent to the next boot
<Nefsen402>
the swapon advice online is horrible. Just configure /etc/fstab and run mount -a
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<kidplayer666>
Nefsen402: I rebooted and it assumed the swap automatically
<kidplayer666>
Went from 7.28 GB zram to 7.28 zram + 16GB of swap
<kidplayer666>
That also explains the low ram usage
<kidplayer666>
As everything else was just zram
<PaulFertser>
So is having zram by default recommended now to all SSD users?
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<kidplayer666>
apparently
<PaulFertser>
Is this a general rule, any laptop and desktop is supposed to work better with zram swap provided some (what exactly?) conditions are met?
<kidplayer666>
also, anyone else with the problem on slp's microvm while trying to game of the cursor being away by a consistent margin from the thing being cursed?
<kidplayer666>
and glad to see the implementation of hybernation
<kidplayer666>
wait, button is here but it is brokem
<kidplayer666>
broken
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<ar>
PaulFertser: this doesn't apply to every usecase, but for me, where i occasionally do compile stuff "heavy" on my laptop, zramSwap makes the difference between compiles finishing with no hiccups, and occasionaly making the oom-killer angry
<PaulFertser>
ar: how about having normal swap there instead, is that ends up being slower?
<ar>
PaulFertser: yup. that just makes things halt to a crawl
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<PaulFertser>
Interesting. When I was experimenting with zram on a 512 MiB machine (old Tegra2-based laptop) or on a 32 MiB wifi router I couldn't find any meaningful combination of settings for it to be useful. What really helped with that laptop was normal swap and setting swappiness to 90 (so that it wouldn't start swapping until almost no free RAM left).
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<ar>
PaulFertser: swappiness takes a value between 0 and 200, and higher values make the kernel *more* eager to swap things out
<PaulFertser>
ar: indeed, I checked my notes, I had vm.swappiness=10
<PaulFertser>
(default being 60)
<PaulFertser>
I'm just surprised people are using zram without opting in to it.
<j`ey>
I linked the script it runs here, it runs on firstboot
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<marcan>
pitust: I'm talking about the routes in alsamixer, but please just use pipewire. the speakers are not designed to be driven directly like that, they need DSP to work properly.
<marcan>
kidplayer666: magenta is not cache, it's shared memory which, if you don't have massive stuff in tmpfs, usually means GPU memory.
<marcan>
however I think in your case it might be zram backing too, not sure how that works
<kidplayer666>
Now that I added proper swap, it works perfectly
<kidplayer666>
Much higher ram usage
<kidplayer666>
So it really was that I think
<marcan>
we do enable proper swap in fedora by default these days, so yeah
<kidplayer666>
Heh
<kidplayer666>
It wasn’t even that long ago lol
<kidplayer666>
I had to reinstall once in November maybe?
<marcan>
swap was added literally the day before release ;)
<Nefsen402>
Can zram compress memory reserved for the GPU?
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<marcan>
no(t yet)
<marcan>
we don't have swapper support for the GPU yet so it all stays pinned in memory
<Nefsen402>
I was thinking it was a hard no, but that's really interesting that it's possible!
<marcan>
it is, but it involves essentially (potentially) swapping out whole apps at once
<marcan>
if an app has to render anything 100% of its GPU memory needs to be available
<Nefsen402>
That's probably fine when my app is suspended in another workspace and not getting any frame callbacks
<marcan>
so it's useful for whole processes/contexts stay idle, not for idle memory within a process
<marcan>
yeah
<Nefsen402>
Unfortunately compositors upload shm textures themselves, it can't suspend shm based apps with this approach
<marcan>
what do you mean?
<Nefsen402>
Foot is an example of a popular shm based terminal emulator, would compress really nicely
<Nefsen402>
Wayland can either work by apps passing fds representing dmabufs
<Nefsen402>
or fds representing shared memory
<Nefsen402>
that shared memory has to be "uploaded" to the gl implementation so that it has a GLTexture to texture from
<Nefsen402>
and that upload is done in the compositor
<marcan>
if the shared memory is not GPU memory to begin with, then it needs to be copied into GPU memory
<marcan>
so at that point it's irrelevant and the original shared memory is normally swappable
<marcan>
either way sharing memory is not an issue, you don't actually swap out whole apps. what I mean is that apps are either suspended (some memory swapped out) or not (no memory swapped out).
<marcan>
if there is any shared memory then that wouldn't be swapped out if someone who needs it has it mapped
<marcan>
the point is just that the moment there is GPU work for that app/context, all of it has to be swapped back in
<Nefsen402>
Right. I was thinking of the case where it would be possible to compress the apps swapchain that it shares with the compositor
<marcan>
in that case no, but if the compositor is actively using it then you wouldn't be able to compress it anyway
<marcan>
the compositor needs access to the primary framebuffers of everything it's compositing
<Nefsen402>
Of course, but sometimes it will allocate a texture for something, but not actually texture from it
<Nefsen402>
aps that were previously visible but then go suspended is an example
<marcan>
right, in that case it still counts of course, as long as those textures are mapped
<marcan>
would need code in the compositor to proactively garbage-collect unused textures out of actual GPU memory to improve that, but I doubt it would be very useful
<Nefsen402>
Yeah, but that isn't possible rn without a wayland protocol
<marcan>
possible in principle though, particularly with vulkan
<marcan>
why would you need a protocol? just have the compositor unmap textures it's not using
<Nefsen402>
But then what happens when the compositor wants the texture again?
<marcan>
it maps it again
<Nefsen402>
But compositors don't have access to the original shm fd
<marcan>
they don't need it
<marcan>
they still have a handle to the texture
<marcan>
what matters is whether it is *actually mapped in*
<marcan>
AIUI this is all explicit in Vulkan
<marcan>
in GL yeah, you'd have to keep around shm fds as backing or something
<Nefsen402>
Ah
<Nefsen402>
yes, I was thinking GL
<Nefsen402>
Compositors like wlroots will actually release shm textures straight back to the compositor once it uploads it to the render impl
<Nefsen402>
This means that it's possible that an app can just pass back the same shm and not have a swapchain at all or even double buffering
<Nefsen402>
So in the GL world it can't just map it back by creating a new texture
<Nefsen402>
I don't know enough about vulkan to say anything
<marcan>
You could just hang onto the fd
<marcan>
it's not exclusive
<marcan>
(just dup it)
<Nefsen402>
the fd might have garbage next time
<marcan>
then your texture would have garbage too
<marcan>
it's the same memory
<Nefsen402>
The gl impl cannot import a shm without a copy
<marcan>
yes it can
<marcan>
well a dmabuf
<Nefsen402>
dmabuf yes, that's how it currently works
<Nefsen402>
that's why I specifically chose the word "import"
<marcan>
sure, but then you can just export your own texture as a dmabuf
<marcan>
after the copy
<marcan>
and hang onto that new dmabuf fd
<marcan>
point being that GPU buffers can exist outside of GL textures, and that in principle allows them to be swapped out when the compositor is otherwise still rendering
<Nefsen402>
gl gives you no way of creating a dmabuf. You have GBM for that and with GBM you need a copy
<Nefsen402>
vulkan it's technically possible to get a dmabuf but only if you have compatibility and love hacks or so I've heard
<Nefsen402>
s/have/hate
<Nefsen402>
everything is moving to vulkan anyway
<marcan>
EGL_MESA_image_dma_buf_export
<Nefsen402>
oh! Didn't know that one existed
<marcan>
either way if you're going this far you might as well use vulkan, but yes, in principle it's possible with GL
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<florolf>
i'm running an alarm installation and would like to continue doing so. with the fedora remix becoming the main priority, the messaging has been a bit unclear (or at least i wasn't able to find any information about this) - i'm aware that alarm is not really recommended/supported anymore, but what does that mean exactly? e.g. are there plans to shut down the jobs that build packages like linux-asahi at some
<florolf>
point?
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<pitust>
marcan: i have pipewire. "just use pipewire" doesn't help much when pipewire doesn't see the speakers
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<kurtgz>
Hello. What's the recommended model (in terms of best support/compatibility) of MacBook to get for Asahi?
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<j`ey>
kurtgz: the m1/m2 options are all pretty much the same compat wise
<j`ey>
m1 without the touchbar is better
<j`ey>
the laptops with physical hdmi have external screen support already
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<kurtgz>
Thank you, yes, I was looking at M1 mostly, just because price would be more affordable for me (but still from what I see there's not much difference)
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<kidplayer666>
j`ey: I mean, the touchbar now works :P. And whenever tiny dfr 0.2 gets packaged you’ll even be able to customise it
<j`ey>
kidplayer666: yeah true, still think its better to avoid it :P
<kurtgz>
okay, would you even consider Air with 16GB of RAM? I have beefy workstation for my other stuff that needs horsepower, but I need something on the go. Most of the consumer laptops are just meh, so looking for some affordable M1 that I can put Asahi on…
<j`ey>
kurtgz: yeah, that would be a good machine
<j`ey>
for casual.. and even some non casual stuff