<waddlesplash>
tidux: huh? we have a modern compiler toolchain, and we are basically on par with upstream
<waddlesplash>
tidux: most of its problems are in the native port code which could really use a lot of work. it's a big task
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<PulkoMandy>
we should migrate to non-legacy APIs for webkit but that doesn't require a more recent compiler than we already have (gcc 11 is quite reasonably up to date) and will also probably not fix most of the bugs which are related to limitations in app_server or at least differences between app_server and other drawing APIs
<PulkoMandy>
(there were network issues too but the current builds use curl like on all other OS, so most of that should be gone)
<PulkoMandy>
and of course we should improve the audio/video support, just need someone with some media kit knowledge to do it with less hacks than I can :)
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<n0toose[m]>
okay, i personally have some issues with the register as its quality can be very awful or relying on gossip, but this piece is very good
<waddlesplash>
except for all the "Haiku isn't UNIX" stuff which is just false
<waddlesplash>
I've engaged the author on Reddit, we'll see if I can correct the misconception :)
<n0toose[m]>
oh, that, i just noticed
<n0toose[m]>
i actually came here to talk about that, but yes, many of the articles would've been better if they just asked people about the details before they end up publishing them and before you know it you have what's essentially not true cited in further articles and wikipedia pages
<n0toose[m]>
it's like one of these situations where you actively read a publication because it seems good, interesting and high-quality and suddenly this facade is demolished as soon as they report on a topic that you have a basic or an extreme specialization on
<n0toose[m]>
it really serves as a good, domain-specific reminder to not take everything you read on the internet or in the newspapers at face value, i believe
<n0toose[m]>
but yes i'm making a big deal out of a small error here, it's good that you're trying to correct this as it's really a slippery slope
<badkeming[m]>
well, making a big deal outo of a small issue is how shitstorms tend to start >_>
<badkeming[m]>
s/outo/out/, s/>/>\/
<badkeming[m]>
so, agreed.
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<waddlesplash>
it's a misconception that we had in the community as well, I know there were a number of regulars on the forums I argued about this with
<rennj>
In a speech in 2002, Crichton coined the term Gell-Mann amnesia effect,
<waddlesplash>
so, it's not surprising to me that other people share it
<n0toose[m]>
i'm basically absolutely generalizing here and not trying to drag the author's name through the mud, my phrasing could've been definitely better
<rennj>
He used this term to describe the phenomenon of experts believing news articles on topics outside of their fields of expertise, even after acknowledging that articles written in the same publication that are within the experts' fields of expertise are error-ridden and full of misunderstanding
<n0toose[m]>
I did not know this term at all, thank you!
<badkeming[m]>
I guess that's basically the difference between academics and journalism -- different time pressures/success criteria.
<badkeming[m]>
as in: good in-depth journalism with proper contextualisation is expensive (as in: time consuming)
<x512[m]>
waddlesplash: > except for all the "Haiku isn't UNIX" stuff which is just false
<n0toose[m]>
yeah, the deadlines are a part of it
<x512[m]>
Well, Linux is also not UNIX.
<waddlesplash>
x512[m]: yes, in the technical sense
<waddlesplash>
however, this is the "colloquial" sense
<n0toose[m]>
Well, "UNIX-like" gives off a different vibe than "not Unix", despite how the two terms could be used to describe the same thing
<waddlesplash>
yes
<rennj>
Fred Fish's ADE/geekgadgets for both amiga and beos did the job
<waddlesplash>
BeOS was actually quite UNIX-y itself, it had fork() and lots of other stuff
<rennj>
Cygwin is free and open-source software, released under the GNU Lesser General Public License version 3.[6] It was originally developed by Cygnus Solution
<rennj>
he did amiga,winblows and beos work
<rennj>
porting gnu foo to them
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<waddlesplash>
tail end of a current discussion with The Register on Twitter
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<x512[m]>
waddlesplash: Haiku process model is not fork() based. It is Windows CreateProcess-like as in Windows.
<x512[m]>
fork() is implemented (as well as in NT), but not as efficient as in UNIX/Linux and not recommended to use.
<waddlesplash>
x512[m]: Linux also has a "CreateProcess"-based model
<waddlesplash>
and, you can't do everything with "CreateProcess"-style calls yet. Our posix_spawn invokes fork() most of the time.
<waddlesplash>
if you want to create a process with modified environment, permissions, etc. you have to use fork
<x512[m]>
That is current implementation limitation of load_image/posix_spawn implementation.
<x512[m]>
Haiku kernel is not optimized for using fork(). It is quite slow compared to most UNIX-like systems.
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<x512[m]>
Many of Haiku Kits are fork()-unaware.
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<waddlesplash>
and so is X11-based stuff, too
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<waddlesplash>
on Linux
<waddlesplash>
lots of things on Haiku are slow compared to many UNIX-like systems, though.
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<andreasdr[m]>
Arrr. But with time things can get improved?
<andreasdr[m]>
Sorry. Could not resist.
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<x512[m]>
Implement more posix_spawn() features natively in kernel without using fork().
<x512[m]>
I believe that fork() is fundamentally misdesigned and should be avoided.
<andreasdr[m]>
I actually never needed fork and I never really understood the need of it. But I am not a UNIX guy from 80-90s.
<badkeming[m]>
waddlesplash: as a point of note, it _might_ pay to suggest that Haiku be included in the list of examples of OSes presenting with a monolithic kernel design...?
<waddlesplash>
x512[m]: you are probably right
<badkeming[m]>
Then you can point to wikipedia if authors try to get cute with you...
<waddlesplash>
badkeming[m]: we can already point to wikipedia's definitions
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<waddlesplash>
I'm not going to edit Haiku's pages here because, well, I'm pretty biased, one might say :)
<waddlesplash>
if I manage to convince a news outlet that the "prevailing conceptions" are wrong, that would be something citeable on Wikipedia
<badkeming[m]>
waddlesplash: Not arguing against that, just pointing out that it might pay to contact a wikipedia editor with the facts of the matter and let them decide.
<x512[m]>
fork() don't take existence of external process environment (connections with other processes, hardware use etc.) in account. Also it have big trouble with FD cloexec attribute.
<badkeming[m]>
waddlesplash: Ah, fair.
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<x512[m]>
Anybody knows how BeOS R5 userland networking was designed?
<x512[m]>
Did it have sockets API or something different?
<badkeming[m]>
all I know is that I read about something being readied to replace the existing networking stack...? "dano"?
<botifico>
[haikuports/haikuports] OscarL 32aba6f - links: fix build on x86 (32 bits). (#7764)
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<Skipp_OSX>
I think that's how it work on BeOS, and we ditched that immediately on Haiku in favor of kernel assistance
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<PulkoMandy>
BeOS was already ditching it before Haiku even started, with the "BONE" patch
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<PulkoMandy>
And it was not "without kernel assistance", there were still network card drivers but the tcp, ip and udp was running in userspace. Which would be perfectly fine if you diDn't need to mix sockets and other kernel based things in select/poll and other similar calls
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