<exit70[m]>
rennj: with the push for higher speed ram, user replaceable ram is going to be rare
<rennj>
soldered ram is scam
<rennj>
and ecc ram should be default with higher density of ram, bit flips more possible
<exit70[m]>
that’s happening with ddr5?
<rennj>
what ? ecc ram should be default, all my servers had it back in the < 1GB day, and it catches errors
<rennj>
all my gear in the 90's was ecc-ram
<rennj>
xeon laptop have it
<rennj>
amd had ecc ram support, but good luck find a vender including it in laptop form, unless it desktop ryzen in laptop, like clevo
<rennj>
clevo laptop using a desktop/server ryzen chip probably has ecc-ram option
<exit70[m]>
lol that’s one way to pick a laptop
<Vidrep_64>
waddlesplash, in and out. What's up?
<waddlesplash>
Vidrep_64: do you have any outstanding XHCI tickets (I think you do)?
<waddlesplash>
I just pushed some fixes that may affect them
<waddlesplash>
since you are one of the people that often finds interesting USB-related bugs, keep me posted
<rennj>
hp ZBOOK FURY G8 xeon and 128GB of ecc ram
<rennj>
course i dont want intel hardware, so thats out
<rennj>
panasonic toughtbook i wonder
<Vidrep_64>
waddlesplash, will do
<Vidrep_64>
gn
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<bitigchi>
I am curious about the Haiku support for the Framework laptop
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<rennj>
how about the pinebook pro
<rennj>
4GB LPDDR4 RAM ooof ...to small
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<jt15s[m]>
bitigchi: Me too, I was thinking of reaching out to them to see if we could work together to make sure Haiku is supported. They're working with a couple of Linux distros already to ensure support for those
<jt15s[m]>
Plus, Framework is a pretty cool laptop and the repairability is something we can get behind
<rennj>
2015 laptop its 2021...i have not had to repair anything
<rennj>
longest i ever owned the same computer i think
<rennj>
repair what...the sata ssd is probably what will go, and probably when it sits idle no power
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<rennj>
repairable laptop is nice idea, just not something that should be an issue..i use to replace laptops every 2 years for performance, not for failed hardware
<bitigchi>
jt15s[m]: it looks like it could have decent compatibility, including the fingerprint reader
<jt15s[m]>
Yeah it does. I'll try and reach out to them and see what they think, maybe they can send a kit over to one of the developers
<bitigchi>
would be swell
<jt15s[m]>
Yeah, it would :)
<jt15s[m]>
I've actually subscribed to their email so I got an email today talking about Linux distro support, which is why I was thinking about that
<jt15s[m]>
* I've actually subscribed to their newsletter so I got an email today talking about Linux distro support, which is why I was thinking about that
<bitigchi>
aha, i stumbled upon that post on HN
<rennj>
a non problem looking for solution, people repairing computer rather than sending them to the landfill.
<rennj>
small minority of people put in the effort for that.
<exit70[m]>
i am just glad that framework laptop has a reasonable price unlike many other “boutique” computers
<rennj>
only “boutique” i know is crapple hardware
<rennj>
and its been that way for 30+ years
<rennj>
think different haha
<exit70[m]>
they are actually available. you can buy one without waiting for a batch
<exit70[m]>
and there’s community support going on forever
<rennj>
i dont want wintel hardware, i want stick with amd. and repairing laptops never been the issue...its been obsolete performance after couple of years, not failed hardware
<rennj>
like modern chrome browser on pinebook pro is to much, yeah well latest chrome wants 3GB of ram
<rennj>
4GB of ram is not going to cut in the pinebook pro
<rennj>
2 years ago chrome would be fine, but 2021 chrome is not going to be fine
<rennj>
i replace laptops not cause of failed hardware, but because of software/performance bloat
<bitigchi>
the amount of computing power required for nearly the same tasks twenty years ago is now insane
<exit70[m]>
just use era software
<exit70[m]>
beos r5 still boots on 32m ram
<rennj>
i know..trust me..i fight the bloat every time i do linux from scratch on new hardware
<rennj>
my current os 350MB in 2021
<rennj>
or i could go disk based os...and be at 6-10GB
<rennj>
it madness
<rennj>
compiling software from 1995-2005 was joy, solaris,freebsd,linux had a parity doesnt exists anymore
<rennj>
beos r5 max out at 768MB of ram
<rennj>
boes r5 max out at like 2Ghz cpu
<exit70[m]>
browsing the web on my iphone is enough for a lot of situations
<rennj>
i refuse to use a phone for general purpose computing, the bmc alone besides the other software
<rennj>
phone is only good for maybe ebooks,fm radio, phone calls,
<jt15s[m]>
Just use Haiku to avoid bloat 😆
<exit70[m]>
but my power macintosh
<rennj>
i had crapple network i had to maintain, honeywell honeymacs quadra/iifx gear ...running os7.x/finder and aux...
<rennj>
honeywell honeymacs DoD gear
<rennj>
when steve jobs was building next turbo slabs and cubes
<rennj>
nextstep/openstep
<rennj>
i sometimes google honeywell honeymacs...not much info on the internet
<rennj>
honeywell/bull produced these cases for the classified systems using crapple gear
<rennj>
they ran apple unix
<rennj>
static arp tables...really locked down network
<rennj>
how it was classified gear when anyone could come along and pull the harddrive out is beyond me
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<rennj>
real secure..when users could steal top secret harddrive...
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<rennj>
you cant find anything on google about those systems
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<zdykstra>
sitting outside in the cool night air with a clear sky - hacking on a haiku laptop. Joy.
<zdykstra>
exit70[m]: I feel like we hang out in a lot of the same channels :P
<exit70[m]>
zdykstra: yeah
<zdykstra>
void(s), chimera and now here. Are you stalking me?
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<exit70[m]>
all because of powerpc
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<zdykstra>
I confess to not using my Blackbird much right now
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<zdykstra>
but I'm reticent to sell it, because it's such a unique peice of hardware
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<jessicah>
framework laptop is also about upgrading, designed so the main board too
<exit70[m]>
zdykstra: you could sell it to me
<zdykstra>
I could, but I don't really need money
<zdykstra>
and after selling a Dual/133 BeBox back in the day, I don't want to repeat that mistake with the Blackbird
<exit70[m]>
keep it in the museum then
<exit70[m]>
framework laptop looks like a good candidate for museum too
<zdykstra>
what's the going price for a 8 core / 32 thread Blackbird with 64GB RAM ?
<exit70[m]>
never seen one on ebay but i am happy to pay current msrp
<bitigchi>
LTT did a nice review about the Framework laptop
<bitigchi>
Linus liked it so much that he straight bought one for himself
<exit70[m]>
it’s lovely if one don’t mind intel/x86
<bitigchi>
yes, that's a bummer a bit
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<jessicah>
I'm still waiting to hear if the expansion system includes Thunderbolt
<jessicah>
I heard it was just awaiting certification, not interested in any machines without Thunderbolt these days
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<exit70[m]>
if only intel/amd could stop doing processor inside processor things
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<jessicah>
hah yeah, funny that even many x86 systems run non-x86 cpus
<jessicah>
although sounds like newer ME have transtioned to x86
<linearcannon>
yeah, everything since skylake iirc
<linearcannon>
though the ME is actually in the PCH, not the cpu itself
<linearcannon>
though more recent ones have that in the cpu itself, so... yeah
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<jessicah>
and don't x86 cpus these days generally translate CISC to RISC internally? can't remember where I read that
<linearcannon>
well, they translate it to a vaguely risc-ish microcode
<linearcannon>
there were some back in the 90s that were actual risc chips with an x86 decoder frontend
<jessicah>
it's kinda bonkers what these CPUs do to execute code these days and still be so damn fast
<linearcannon>
the AMD K5 is actually an AMD 29k RISC cpu with an x86 decoder slapped in front of it
<linearcannon>
and that design manages to hold up remarkably well to the pentiums it competed with
<jessicah>
was that the first x86 cpu to introduce cmov?
<linearcannon>
the Pentium Pro introduced cmov
<jessicah>
I thought it was AMD
<jessicah>
huh, I stand corrected :)
<linearcannon>
when the Pentium Pro released, AMD's most advanced product was a 486, so no :)
<linearcannon>
the K5 might have it though...
<linearcannon>
can't find out with a quick search, might plug mine in and check
<jessicah>
you still have one? :o
<jessicah>
good in winter to keep the room warm? :p hahaha
<linearcannon>
i have almost every socket 3 cpu (at some clock speed - not every clock speed variation) and almost every socket 7 cpu (same deal, excluding super socket 7)
<linearcannon>
also these cpus draw a lot less power than you think
<linearcannon>
it was the stuff that followed these that started drawing tons of heat
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<jessicah>
I was thinking more just the inefficiencies overall
<jessicah>
I can't remember what gens all this stuff was
<linearcannon>
i mean maybe, but when the whole computer draws less than 15w most of the time that doesn't really matter
<jessicah>
I went from like a 486 with the 100MHz overclocking thing, to I think a P3, then an Athlon XP
<linearcannon>
i get a lot of people telling me i should be emulating this stuff instead since it's so inefficient
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<linearcannon>
my ryzen box idles at 80w, and if i emulate my 486, hovers around 100. the 486 only takes 12w. it's more efficient to just plug in the machine. especially if i turn off the ryzen.
<jessicah>
the AMD motherboards of that era were utter shit... I went though like 5 motherboards, each one a different problem... in the end I settled with one that still had an issue, but it didn't affect what I used it for
<linearcannon>
...also the reason i have these is because i'm hyper-optimizing old software for these individual cpus for fun and that doesn't work so well in an emulator :D
<jessicah>
nice :D
<linearcannon>
mostly quake
<linearcannon>
which has made me learn far more about x87 fpu assembly than any human should know
<jessicah>
I suppose if you pair with a modern monitor, not too shabby power wise
<jessicah>
hah
<linearcannon>
i use a crt too :P
<linearcannon>
fairly late one that's decent on power use though
<linearcannon>
also i run the pc itself off my own solar panel on my deck, so there's that too
<jessicah>
how do your eyes not burn? I remember plugging one in some years back, and omg, my eyes...
<jessicah>
ooh that's cool
<linearcannon>
it's a very good monitor and i keep the refresh rate high most of the time
<linearcannon>
this monitor goes up to 180hz at lower resolutions
<jessicah>
I was like nop nop nop, and binned it :p
<linearcannon>
i even ran it as my main monitor for a while until my girlfriend retired her 1440p 144hz monitor in favor of an ultrawide, and i inherited it
<jessicah>
up there with gaming monitors :D
<linearcannon>
also re:athlon xp, yeah, *that* would've been the power sucker
<linearcannon>
those things will *actually catch fire* if you don't have a heatsink on them
<jessicah>
they also required patching the beos kernel to run :)
<rennj>
i need a new laptop cause youtube is forcing this crap on me..and this laptop is now to slow
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<jessicah>
:-/
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<rennj>
yeah figures chrome is playing it better,
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<rennj>
its only youtube doing this crap, tubitv.com crackle dont care about latest widevine
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<HaikuUser2>
hello world
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<Not-5726>
[haikuports/haikuports] threedeyes pushed 1 commit to master [+4/-4/±0] https://git.io/JExfg
<Not-5726>
[haikuports/haikuports] threedeyes b51e397 - Telegram: bump version
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<countryboy>
HaikuUser: print "hello world"
<countryboy>
print "you are wellcome "
<countryboy>
hello world
<countryboy>
you are wellcome
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<kallisti5[m]>
does anyone here use BeOS?
<kallisti5[m]>
or develop software for it?
<kallisti5[m]>
(not Haiku, BeOS)
<kallisti5[m]>
Thinking of offering to clean out BeOS code from binutils. I don't see any use... and I could ensure Haiku continues to function while doing that cleanup.
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<Not-5726>
[haikuports/haikuports] threedeyes pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±1] https://git.io/JExE0
<Not-5726>
[haikuports/haikuports] threedeyes 3f77438 - Telegram: bump for rebuild
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<B2IA>
(AGMS:) AGMS:
<B2IA>
(AGMS) kallisti5[m], I still do some BeOS work, but it's also compilable under Haiku and PPC.
<B2IA>
(AGMS) Don't need a new binutils, just using the old compiler when compiling for old systems.
<kallisti5[m]>
AGMS: yeah, that was my major worry. To be honest, I'd bet the binutils code doesn't even compile under BeOS anymore
<kallisti5[m]>
i mean... can gcc2 compile the latest binutils lol?
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<B2IA>
(AGMS-Cottage) Doubt it, kallisti5[m], too much bit rot I assume. I just reuse the old computer or a VM to run BeOS and compile new software.
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* Anarchos
did a pull request to HaikuArchives to update BeTeX
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<Not-5726>
[haiku/website] waddlesplash pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±1] https://git.io/JEx97
<Not-5726>
[haiku/website] jt15s b0692ae - Add Australian mirror
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<waddlesplash>
weird. must be a profile difference somehow
<augiedoggie_>
getting a gCPU undefined error when building without it
<waddlesplash>
or are you building with PAE disabled or something?
<augiedoggie_>
not that i'm aware of
<waddlesplash>
easy fix, I'll commit shortly
<waddlesplash>
thnx
<augiedoggie_>
wasn't sure if it was just my machine
<augiedoggie_>
thanks
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* waddlesplash
attempts to untangle the mess of buffer logic in the USB audio drizer
<waddlesplash>
driver
<waddlesplash>
is a buffer one packet? or channels times subframes?
<waddlesplash>
are there multiple concepts of buffers, and these are supposed to be different?
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<Coldfirex>
things that make you go hmmm
<tqh>
I think we need a new buffer.
<waddlesplash>
yes, media buffers are in general not very intuitive
<PulkoMandy>
in media kit, the general idea is: a buffer contains a number of frames (one or more, one when you want absolute minimal latency no matter what the CPU use is, more when you want lower CPU use overall but don't care about latency)
<PulkoMandy>
in video, everyone is familiar with what a frame is
<PulkoMandy>
in audio, media kit defines a frame as one audio sample per audio channel
<PulkoMandy>
so for stereo it's one left and one right sample
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<waddlesplash>
PulkoMandy: yes, but the question really is how USB audio buffers are mapped to multi_audio buffers
<waddlesplash>
however, currently things do not even get that far. right now I can get a tone to play in multi_audio_test, but media_server hangs and then claims there are no parameters when I try to use it
<PulkoMandy>
yes, I don't really know about the usb and driver side
<waddlesplash>
and indeed, it appears the device is claiming it has 0 outputs and 2 inputs so this is unsurprising
<waddlesplash>
clearly something has gotten mixed up because the inputs are clearly outputs
<PulkoMandy>
you can check this with listusb -v, it decodes the USB descriptors
<PulkoMandy>
not sure how much of usb audio we have there, however, I remember adding some things when working on webcams and on usb midi but don't remember if some parts were still missing
<waddlesplash>
it appears to have both inputs and outputs
<waddlesplash>
(this is in QEMU, by the way)
<waddlesplash>
clearly the outputs work as when I type "play" I get a tone
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<waddlesplash>
however, there are 0 output channels (but 2 output busses)
<waddlesplash>
listed in the multi_audio output. so, somehow the driver has incorrectly advertised what it does or does not have
<PulkoMandy>
I think korli did some work in audio drivers and maybe he could help. I don't know a lot about these things
<waddlesplash>
apparently there is a difference between "bus channels" and "channels"
<Coldfirex>
Im guessing some new source comments will be added as you work your way through this
<waddlesplash>
nah, most of this is me not knowing my way around media kit internals
<waddlesplash>
I'm sure this is some silly bug that will have a quick fix once I find it
<waddlesplash>
PulkoMandy: any ideas why a CONTROLLABLE_GET_PARAMETER_WEB message would go unanswered and where I might debug that?
<PulkoMandy>
I think the only time I vaguely approched this was fixing media sliders to use a native BTooltip, no idea about any of this
<waddlesplash>
something is just not routing the message to the right place
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<waddlesplash>
PulkoMandy: hmm, actually you changed this file last, you added some input sanitization
<waddlesplash>
I wonder if that actually is the initial culprit of why this no longer works
<waddlesplash>
that doesn't answer why there are no parameter webs
<PulkoMandy>
I touch a lot of things. It doesn't mean I know how they work
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<waddlesplash>
ok, seems probable this node is failing to init
<waddlesplash>
and winds up in B_NODE_DISTRESSED state
<waddlesplash>
question is, does that indeed prevent the control loop from starting?
<waddlesplash>
indeed, Run() is never called in this case
<waddlesplash>
PulkoMandy: it appears your change inadvertently exposed the fact that zombie nodes can exist in media kit :p
<waddlesplash>
i.e nodes with open ports that will never reply to anything they are sent
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<Vidrep_64>
Just testing Haiku on my new toy, a Gigabyte BRIX mini PC
<Vidrep_64>
Framebuffer video at full HD 1920x1080, network OK, no audio, sluggish response on USB 3 connected keyboard and mouse
<Vidrep_64>
Haiku is installed to a 512GB NVME drive
<Vidrep_64>
So, mostly working
<waddlesplash>
what's the syslog, any xhci errors?
<Vidrep_64>
I bought it to be a Kodi box, but thought I'd try Haiku on it first
<Coldfirex>
nice
<Vidrep_64>
It freezes up when I open the Media Preferences, and when shutting down it hangs for a bit on Media add-on server and Media server before finally shutting down
<waddlesplash>
this may be related to at icket I just opened lol
<Vidrep_64>
This is a fresh install of Beta 3 with an update to hrev55181+57. How about I open a general ticket in trac, and attach the first syslog?
<waddlesplash>
Coldfirex: can you upload a new syslog please?
<waddlesplash>
tqh: hold on, I don't understand why it works now! :P
<Coldfirex>
hmmm, not sure. I didnt install, just booted to try. Can I set wireless will running from the ISO to upload the syslog? Otherwise I dont know how to grab it
<waddlesplash>
yes
<Vidrep_64>
waddlesplash, would it be more useful to update to a currently nightly instead of Beta 3 to test these USB issues?
<waddlesplash>
yes
<tqh>
waddlesplash, sorry I didn't see you writing in ticket before, so usually we close things when poster says it is fixed.
<waddlesplash>
Coldfirex: I would reboot a bunch before you confirm it is really fixed at least
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<Coldfirex>
yes sir still booting fine
<Vidrep_64>
waddlesplash, another oddity. When I play any mp4 video it runs at half speed
<waddlesplash>
related to audio, I bet
<Vidrep_64>
I'll retry after updating to a current nightly. Maybe a fix was done already
<Coldfirex>
I got braven and mounted my ntfs disk and copied the syslog over. I attached it to the closed ticket. https://dev.haiku-os.org/ticket/17072
<waddlesplash>
that doesn't make any sense
<waddlesplash>
the errors are still there, and from what I can tell, the old syslogs cut off long before XHCI would have initialized
<waddlesplash>
I have a hard time believing my changes really fixed this...
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<waddlesplash>
anyway, the QEMU USB audio device has an input terminal with no input stream
<waddlesplash>
is that normal? what should the driver do in this case? currently it says it has an input channel but it doesn't, and this breaks a lot of things in media_server apparently
<Coldfirex>
Possibly not related, but I have seen boot differences between Beta 3 and nightly when it comes to a couple boot related things
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