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<AlienSoldier>
after update KDL unable to mount package fs. What is causing this?
<AlienSoldier>
i think the last time someting like that happened i was having like now less than 2G left on my partition. Like if something can screw up if new update system files end up in the last (probably fragmented) corner of a hard drive
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<bbjimmy>
mrentropy liquor taxes in OR are outrageous. liquor in Californis isn't cheep, but costs much less than the same in OT.
<bbjimmy>
*OR
<bbjimmy>
Glad the BuildFactory is working.
<B2IA>
(mrentropy) Yep. Thanks!
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<jt15s[m]>
What do people think about the "Pay what you want" model for open source software projects? For those unaware it's a donation form that pops up asking you to donate whenever you download software - it's completely optional and you can donate nothing if you choose to.
<skirst>
i don't like it. i would leave that stuff on the website or in your "about" box. but not at point of download. could make good people feel guilty for not being able to donate. and the others just click through it anyways. just my 2 bits
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<skirst>
however, i'm not against the aproch the ardour projoect took for binary downloads. if you aren't able to build the source, you have to pay.
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<Not-5726>
[haikuports/haikuports] Begasus pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±2] https://git.io/JuwRE
<Not-5726>
[haikuports/haikuports] iam-git cb9092f - scipy: enable python versions 3.8 and 3.9. ndimage import fix in stats module (#6148)
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<jt15s[m]>
skirst: I don't quite like the sound of the approach Ardour has taken, plus I'm not sure if that's in violation of the GPL or not
<jt15s[m]>
I feel like this will turn users away from their software rather than encouraging them to donate
<jezek2>
jt15s[m]: just looked at it and it seems complicated, that alone can drive away people even before considering donations
<skirst>
ardour's approach is pretty simple. it's open source. you can compile and distribute the binary freely. see any linux distro that includes it. but if you can't build the source, you pay for a download. depending on how much you pay nets you a certain level of support and upgrades. no different than commercial software. seems to be the best of both worlds
<jezek2>
jt15s[m]: the GPL is fine with it, if the demo version (which has the time limit) is just a build flag then it's fine, if it's modified then it's fine as long as the modified sources are provided at least for the person who gets it together with the binary (same would apply for any commercial version with added features etc.)
<skirst>
yeah, it's still just GPLv2 at the end of the day. do whatever you want, just follow the rules :)
<skirst>
the paid versions get you support from the ardour team, distro binaries and source builds = figure it out
<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] b40866e65f8a - Update translations from Pootle
<PulkoMandy>
distro binaries get you free support from the distro
<PulkoMandy>
but if you want to see how this model can go bad, see what happened when xchat tried to do it for their windows build. They made that paid, and kicked out the person who had been doing it for free for years before that
<PulkoMandy>
now xchat is dead and was forked as hexchat
<PulkoMandy>
in the case of haiku it would also require huge changes to basically everything. Could we still distribute nightly builds? What about automated builds from gerrit changes that can be used to test a bugfix? If we continue to make these available for free, it makes ne sense to sell the final version, right?
<nephele[m]>
jt15s: I like that model on itch.io, thought that mostly isn't open source software (But i don't care that much for games tbh)
<nephele[m]>
You aren't required to call it "pay what you want", since you aren't buying anything you might aswell call it donate what you want, in which case you could probably do it like the reactos website does in relation to haiku
<nephele[m]>
reactos just offers you to donate when you download the image, it puts the donation before starting the download, personally I'd prefer to have it /after/ the download started, but asking should be fine IMO
<PulkoMandy>
yes, I think the wording is important too
<PulkoMandy>
people who donate are not entitled to anything except a "thanks for supporting the project"
<PulkoMandy>
people who buy, even in a "pay what you want" scheme, are entitled to some level of support for the product they get
<PulkoMandy>
which I'm not sure we're ready to provide currently
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<jt15s[m]>
Linux Lite recently implemented this and I don't think they provide any additional support for donators
<nephele[m]>
I don't think we should either, it should be clear it is a donation, and not a contract for goods or services
<jt15s[m]>
nephele: Agreed, I don't think we should provide, or must provide additional support for donators - I'd propose just having a donation form pop up saying "We rely on donations, please donate - this is optional" and if people don't want to donate that's fine too
<nephele[m]>
Maybe you can do some funky thingy that goes from a download button to then display the progress inline, and add a "Would you consider a donation" box bellow it... as in no "popups" but just a view expansion
<jt15s[m]>
Sounds good - I'm not very good with this sort of complex stuff though lol
<jt15s[m]>
Sounds like Javascript will need to be involved
<nephele[m]>
the donation meter uses JS.. I would love it to respect low motion mode :D
* nephele[m]
is still ploitting to make a haiku-colors.css that respects increased contrast, low contrast, dark colors, and forced system colors automatically
<jt15s[m]>
Low motion mode?
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<jt15s[m]>
Maybe you could work on haiku-colors.css for the code sprint
<nephele[m]>
please don't use matrix reactions, they can't propogate to irc
<jt15s[m]>
Ok
<nephele[m]>
low motion mode is a css querry you can use to specify "please make this website move less" basically, it coresponds to iOS low motion mode accesibility option for example
<nephele[m]>
A good example is on apples page they do some really funky animations with spinning products and such when you scroll down, but with low motion mode it behaves like a normal long scrolled page
<jt15s[m]>
Oh ok, yeah some of those animations get a bit annoying sometimes
<nephele[m]>
we have one similar querry now activated in our webkit port, the one for dark mode support, potentially we could do low motion too
<nephele[m]>
personally i'd just have low motion mode on per default and have it be opt-out in Web+ settings... imo that fits more into the way haiku normally works, very little animations if any
<jt15s[m]>
That does sort of make sense, but alternatively we could just let the user choose with maybe a Windows Media Player sort of window on first start where they can configure common browser settings
<nephele[m]>
Please no .-., it's already bad enough haikudepot has a popup on first run
<jt15s[m]>
Why does HaikuDepot have a popup on first run?
<nephele[m]>
To allow an opt-in to analytics data
<jt15s[m]>
Oh, that makes sense
<jt15s[m]>
I get what you mean with low motion mode but if we enable that by default users might think the website's broken
<jt15s[m]>
And then we get loads of bug reports
<jt15s[m]>
Saying animations etc aren't working
<nephele[m]>
We already get bug reports about animations beeing broken
<nephele[m]>
websites should work just fine with low motion mode enabled, it really is just something a website can optionally support
<jt15s[m]>
Alright
<nephele[m]>
for example, the donation meter on haiku-os.org fills when you visit the site, we could optionally make it be filled already when you enter, or have it skip the animation for low motion mode
<jt15s[m]>
Yes I get what you mean
<jt15s[m]>
I'll file a ticket and see if someone who's good with JS can tweak that
<jt15s[m]>
Hmm, maybe after downloading Haiku we could just re-direct to a "Thank you" page that has the donation form on it?
<nephele[m]>
We don't have low motion mode in WebPositive yet, you can file a ticket but it's hard to test... I am not sure if android or chrome do that
<jt15s[m]>
I was talking about filing a ticket to get the donation meter to support low motion mode
<nephele[m]>
Yes, i'm saying it could be hard to test
<nephele[m]>
but it would be neat indeed :)
<nephele[m]>
Other than that i don't really know any places where we use animations on the site, though i could be wrong
<nephele[m]>
I think I'll try to work a bit on low motion, and the context menu option "search the web"
<nephele[m]>
probably both of those need to get data from Web+ settings
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<nephele[m]>
Bah, why does posix find have to be so damn complicated to use .-.
<nephele[m]>
BNetworkCookieJar has no way to delete non-outdated cookies... huh
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<AlienSoldier>
waddlesplash: any idea what can cause a KDL at boot saying "unable to mount package fs"? seconf time it happend to me and i never was able to fix it by furter OS update. So if this was corruption, any new updade don't overwrite the problem. Previous state still boot fine. Last time i fixed the problem from installing new from an image i think.
<nephele[m]>
oh wow, I've never seen that before :)
<nephele[m]>
would be cool to style our trac more like that
<PulkoMandy>
AlienSoldier, have you tried renaming the activated_package file? It may be that this file is in an inconsistent state
<PulkoMandy>
(make a backup of it for further analysis if that fixes it)
<PulkoMandy>
Coldfirex, we have moved to github for a very long time, old site should be put offline at this point
<B2IA>
(mrentropy) Probably not related, but when I did an update on this computer this morning it failed the first time saying the transaction was too old.
<PulkoMandy>
but there are various other things that are still on the haiku-files.org server so no one dares to cut it off
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<Coldfirex>
Thats what I figured thanks
<AlienSoldier>
PulkoMandy what do you mean by "activated_package" file (i have no such file) or do you mean the first that give me problem? And to what do i rename it?
<AlienSoldier>
*the first state
<PulkoMandy>
it's in /system/packages/administrative/activated-packages
<PulkoMandy>
this files contains a list of a packages that were already activated, and is used to detect installed or removed packages
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<PulkoMandy>
if you somehow end up in a situation where, for example, the haiku package is missing from this file, it can create some problems
<AlienSoldier>
ok, it is a -, not a _
<PulkoMandy>
if the file is deleted, all packages present in the package directory are re-activated (so if they have scripts to be run at install time, these will be re-run)
<PulkoMandy>
yes, sorry, I was typing it from memory
<AlienSoldier>
PulkoMandy. I typed backup in front of it. Now do i reboot from my currently booting state or from the problematic latest state where i have the problem?
<PulkoMandy>
reboot normally (to the latest state) and see what happens
<AlienSoldier>
ok, doing this right now.
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<AlienSoldier>
PulkoMandy no luck
<AlienSoldier>
still KDL
<PulkoMandy>
then I don't know. Does syslog say anythng more?
<AlienSoldier>
from the current boot i now get "
<AlienSoldier>
KERN: package_daemon [75087907: 409] Failed to open packages activation file /boot/system/packages/administrative/activated-packages: No such file or directory
<AlienSoldier>
KERN: package_daemon [75089305: 409] Failed to get activated packages info from activated packages file. Assuming all package files in package directory are activated.
<AlienSoldier>
i have a hard time to exactly find the transition in the log between the two booting
<AlienSoldier>
PulkoMandy at one place i see this"
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<Begasus>
Heading down here, cu peeps
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<tiramisan>
anyone gotten icloud to work with haiku's mail yet?
<nephele[m]>
iCloud email?
<nephele[m]>
I don't know if anyone does that... but I also heard nobody complain that it doesn't work, so maybe it does work :)
<tiramisan>
it should work, but it doesn't.. should we add a port selector in the mail program or maybe i'm too stupid to find it.
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<nephele[m]>
There is a way to specify the mail port, yes, but i doubt you need that? you probably need to enable TLS (which for some reason is default off :()
<tiramisan>
ok so i did that and I can connect. but no mail is downloaded. it can list the remote folders tho.
<nephele[m]>
Does one of those contain a backslash per chance?
<tiramisan>
No just regular letters
<tiramisan>
is there a logging window i can check?
<B2IA>
(binky-haiku) is it just me that ssh in haiku gives "hostfile_replace_entries: link /boot/home/config/settings/ssh/known_hosts to /boot/home/config/settings/ssh/known_hosts.old: Operation not allowed
<nephele[m]>
Eh, kinda, yes... one moment
<nephele[m]>
Open a terminal and run "launch_roster stop x-vnd.be-post" that will stop the imap daemon
<nephele[m]>
Then you can run /system/servers/mail_daemon manually to get the log output in the terminal
<nephele[m]>
It's very verbose imap stuff :D
<tiramisan>
ah nice, thanks alot!
<nephele[m]>
Please open a ticket in any case, even better if you can pinpoint the why it doesn't download mail :)
<tiramisan>
nephele[m]: a restart of the daemon triggered download of everything so i guess no problem then?
<nephele[m]>
I suppose your issue is fixed... for now :P
<nephele[m]>
Good to know that iCloud mail works anyhow :)
<tiramisan>
maybe i should add how to in the wiki, if it help anyone else.
<nephele[m]>
Hmm, the trac wiki is not really frequented by users
<nephele[m]>
Ideally we would just improve mail so additional wiki entries are not needed :)
<tiramisan>
that's true, it's a bit rought to be honest :) more developers!
<nephele[m]>
TLS beeing off by default is what has bitten me the most
<nephele[m]>
the option also sais SSL, so i assumed the connection was failing because i don't suppport SSL, only TLS :D (but that was before i knew more about the haiku TLS stack... haiku doesn't support SSL either)
<tiramisan>
yes especially since we don't get any nice error messages either ^_^
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<Vidrep_64>
PulkoMandy, just built WebKit from last commit. I'm getting this http://0x0.st/-xKR.png
<Vidrep_64>
64 bit build
<Vidrep_64>
My mistake, there's more since I did my build
<PulkoMandy>
busy days for webkit, but I don't think we had this particular problem fixed today. It's possibly related to the recent changes to static libraries by waddlesplash and may need adding some extra libraries to the linker flags in webpositive or webkit
<waddlesplash>
yes, indeed
<PulkoMandy>
I will have to update my haiku install to test this, I guess, I'm still on an older revision
<nephele[m]>
"Your browser is 5 minutes out of date, please update"
<nephele[m]>
You will have to try with HaikuLauncher though, because of that same issue above :/
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<PulkoMandy>
remind me tomorrow to review and include them, time to sleep now :)
<nephele[m]>
I'll send you a email then
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<iisi>
Rats, missed him.
<iisi>
Not really Haiku-related, but anyone else compiling WebKit care to comment on their hardware and time it takes to compile?
<iisi>
I'm mostly finding things that go on and on about how fast M1 Macs are.
<nephele[m]>
clean build is like 2 to 3 hours i guess
<nephele[m]>
this is with a 6 core cpu, logical 12 threads
<nephele[m]>
about system sais "AMD Ryzen 5 3600", i have 32GB of system memory available
<nephele[m]>
It's definetely much quicker to compile haiku itself .-.
<iisi>
Thanks.
<iisi>
I'm looking to compare Threadripper 32-thread and 64-thread, and Intel. Normally I'd just go by PassMark, UL's 3DMark, and whichever reviews state an actual scientific'ly rigorous methodology.
<nephele[m]>
Most of the build seems to take proper care for multiple cores, if you go 64-thread you probably need a ridicilously high ammount of memory though
<iisi>
But I've a friend who's looking for people's real-world experiences, and best I've got is an i7 4790k
<nephele[m]>
the compile jobs take seems to take up from 3 to 4gb sometime
<iisi>
O, that was one of the search results that I didn't open. (^_^);
* iisi
clicks
<nephele[m]>
I can't dismiss the "we respect your privacy" crap . oh well
<Coldfirex>
I would love a threadripper. Just not sure it would work on Haiku w/o potentially disabling some cores
<nephele[m]>
Why? Haiku seems to be a system that does much better with multicore than some other OS...
<Coldfirex>
Solely based off my experience using ESXi (https://dev.haiku-os.org/ticket/17233). Nephele has 12 threads. Not sure if ESX specific or if we really have issues above 12 cores
<nephele[m]>
No we don't, i'm fairly sure kallisti5 has 32 threads or something else ridicilous
<Coldfirex>
That would be good. I wouldnt want that to be an across the board issue
<nephele[m]>
okay, sqlite3 with debug info, here i come
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<nephele[m]>
Every passed argument is " Bad address" uhoh
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