<BrunoSpr>
hi all... my Intel_extreme Laptop does not start to Desktop with new Hrev. 55459 Haiku 32bit nightly... InputServer is running constantly at 50% I use ctrl+alt+del to restart and get to the Desktop. Mouse is not working. Trackpad is! syslog enough with short descriptio?
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<rennj>
participating, no.
<rennj>
every day is retro day..for me..on this ancient hardware
<rennj>
use to buy new computer like every 2 years..
<rennj>
old cars, but i had new computers
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<BrunoSpr>
Did you know? PulkoMandy is now a Retrogrammer!
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<Not-5726>
[haikuports/haikuports] Begasus pushed 1 commit to master [+1/-0/±0] https://git.io/JzNjz
<Not-5726>
[haikuports/haikuports] Begasus 5dd288b - tree-sitter, new recipe (#6206)
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<Not-5726>
[haikuports/haikuports] threedeyes pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±1] https://git.io/JzAYM
<Not-5726>
[haikuports/haikuports] threedeyes 92f89fd - OpenClaw: restored the authorship of patches
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<rennj>
retrogamer i take it
<rennj>
Geoffrey Chaucer Retrogrammer!
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<andreasdr>
Hi
<andreasdr>
Hi, short update. I have no more ideas. I just received and installed the Radeon HD 5850 here and I get the same error that I also had with the other 2 boards.
<andreasdr>
See attached a dmesg here: https://pastebin.com/GfbHTAwM. It makes no sense now to continue for me, which is a pity as I already spent 2-3 weeks of more like stupid, but hard work for RADEONDRM.
<andreasdr>
I guess its a motherboard <> graphics board incompability issue, because I cant believe that this DRM radeon error can be usual case. 3 boards that do not work. Crazy.
<andreasdr>
I just dont have space for another older desktop computer. The only thing I could do is trying to get a old radeon based laptop, which I currently do not have money for. I already spent 100€ although I have no money currently :D
<andreasdr>
So. No idea, end of story :DDD
<andreasdr>
Maybe Ill continue in a few months, when I have money available.
<andreasdr>
Oh. One option would maybe If a Haiku user has such a laptop(they should be cheap meanwhile) and would spend it. :)
<Diver>
I think we should start a bounty for that
<andreasdr>
I don't know, such a laptop should be around 200€. If a bounty is a way to go, then go ahead :)
<andreasdr>
But would need to investigate to find such a laptop.
<x512[m]>
andreasdr: does it run on Linux?
<andreasdr>
It makes no sense for me to try linux as the port is OpenBSD based. But I can try if it helps in a way?
<andreasdr>
I can try OpenBSD again, but the other 2 cards do not work with NetBSD and not with Linux.
<andreasdr>
Not with OpenBSD
<andreasdr>
I did not try Linux yet
<andreasdr>
I can not handle a Linux port. Thats too heavy for me.
<x512[m]>
Just to make sure that hardware is operational and compatible with DRM in general. Some Ubuntu LineUSB can be used for testing, no install is needed.
<andreasdr>
Ok. Ill try a current Ubuntu.
<andreasdr>
Give me 2 hours.
<andreasdr>
But.i can tell you that Windows worked 100% with the other 2 boards.
<andreasdr>
Tried my engine with those 2 boards.
<andreasdr>
I can try also with the 5850, but I guess it works :)
<andreasdr>
Give me 2 hours. Ill check Windows and Ubuntu
<x512[m]>
Maybe it is good idea to test my hardware with *BSD.
<x512[m]>
On Linux it works fine, both Intel and AMD.
<x512[m]>
On Haiku modesetting drivers works.
<andreasdr>
Yes. The haiku drivers did work also for the other 2 boards, which is cool already.
<andreasdr>
Ok. Let me try Windows and Ubuntu with the 5850. See you later.
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<andreasdr>
Windows works. Ill download now a Ubuntu 20.04 LTS. Also I will try again OpenBSD(which is the port source, hence it makes lots of sense)
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<andreasdr>
LOL. OpenBSD destroyed the graphics board, guess it used a incomplete Firmware or something. Hope my computer is still usable. BTW: It also did not start X properly, black screen. Need to check the computer again with another graphics board. No idea.
<andreasdr>
OpenBSD loads Firmware from WWW when doing a first boot.
<andreasdr>
Would need to check if it does a CHECKSUM test or something.
<andreasdr>
Sounds bad for OpenBSD but I know it was working really well so far with AMDGPU and my 5700XT, also it did work with Radeon in my G4. Hmm. I am quiet now :)
<andreasdr>
I could install linux, but I could not boot fully to X after installed. Black screen. I removed this graphics board now. Also I am a bit concerned to loose my powerful desktop computer. So you decide for a bounty for a radeon laptop or something, or we see us just later :))) Rock n Roll!
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<rennj>
model name : AMD A10-8700P Radeon R6, 10 Compute Cores 4C+6G
<rennj>
my 2015 amd laptop
<rennj>
4core/4thread 16GB ram 500GB sata ssd
<rennj>
i run haiku in vmware cause it runs better in virtualmachine then on baremetal
<rennj>
linux amdgpu wasnt worth shit till 2019..4 years after my laptop was built
<andreasdr>
Really? VM is better than bare metal? That sounds crazy. I like to have the full bare metal Haiku experience.
<rennj>
closed source fglrx was better then amdgpu up to 2019
<andreasdr>
But AMDGPU is too new for my RADEONDRM project.
<rennj>
4hours to make bloated pig kernel everthing as module..where possible
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<x512[m]>
It seems that amdgpu kernel driver is needed for Vulkan driver, radeon driver is incompatible.
<andreasdr>
I could not have checked it. I have 3 modern graphics cards. They are all AMDGPU class.
<andreasdr>
But i must tell you, that Vulkan is a bit overrated. You can google this by yourself. Even AAA games only gain sometimes 10%-30% speed only.
<andreasdr>
Depending even if you are on NVIDIA or AMD
<andreasdr>
For now at least.
<andreasdr>
And those AAA are super optimized, certainly programmed by the best Engine Devs out there.
<andreasdr>
:)
<andreasdr>
But Vulkan is needed for RayTracing, which is only really worth it on NVIDIA.
<andreasdr>
So in my opionion, no one really 100% needs VULKAN currently :D
<rennj>
but what about libcuda
<rennj>
heh sqlite built against libcuda is some classic bull
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<andreasdr>
Never used it. But I used OpenCL on MacOSX for skinning computation, because MacOSX OpenGL has no compute shaders.
<rennj>
used opengl when x11 didnt support it
<rennj>
so remote irix desktop was not possible
<rennj>
mesa makes life better now
<andreasdr>
MESA is nice yes. They kicked off GL on Unix like OSes. Followed that for 2 decades now.
<andreasdr>
Open Source Unix Like OSes
<rennj>
was voodoo glu/glx foo before mesa
<rennj>
original opengl on linux was voodoo cards
<rennj>
hmmm quake
<rennj>
on linux
<rennj>
1997!
<andreasdr>
Yes. Nice stuff.
<andreasdr>
I remember.
<andreasdr>
:D
<skirst>
i still have 2 voodoo2 cards. SLI!
<andreasdr>
Nice.
<rennj>
mesa/amdgpu is working anyway
<rennj>
100day uptimes no crashing in x11
<andreasdr>
I tried once to port Voodoo drivers to PPC in 200x on Linux, I failed that hard :D
<rennj>
but opengl/fglrx was nice also
<andreasdr>
I remember it built at the end, but I got a yellow screen.
<andreasdr>
And there I stopped.
<andreasdr>
I have done many stupid things in my life it seems. But it always was lots of fun.
<andreasdr>
My girlfriend this time hated me for sure.
<skirst>
fglrx. had some time with that one. wow, a long time ago. had to fix the agp code because my motherboard sucked
<andreasdr>
Just not to make some money or something.
<rennj>
i used fglrx up to 2019
<rennj>
with 4.x kernel...
<andreasdr>
skirst: Cool.
<andreasdr>
Nerd.
<andreasdr>
:D
<skirst>
this was more like 2004 :D
<x512[m]>
Vulkan has cleaner architecture. OpenGL implementation depends on OS windowing system and other details.
<rennj>
way past the abi bullshit on xorg/kernels
<andreasdr>
Vulkan is super complicated. Its API is like 10 times bigger and more complicated than OpenGL.
<skirst>
andreasdr, 'till the death :D
<rennj>
directx to opengl is what my vmware guest tools driver is doing
<skirst>
andreasdr, hello btw
<andreasdr>
I guess you need to be a real hardcore developer to get something feasible with Vulkan.
<rennj>
vmware accelerated xorg does same...
<andreasdr>
Feasible in terms of performance and maintainable
<andreasdr>
in combination with real world use case.
<andreasdr>
Look at all those little Vulkan things.
<andreasdr>
This is nothing. Try to port OGRE or something multithreaded to Vulkan.
<andreasdr>
Nightmare.
<andreasdr>
I have ported my engine to Vulkan, I know what I am talking about. And I took a simple approach even.
<andreasdr>
But full featured.
<andreasdr>
But of course I like the idea that at the end Vulkan will give some gain to it.
<andreasdr>
skirst: Hello!
<andreasdr>
Just my thoughts about Vulkan.
<andreasdr>
:)
<x512[m]>
andreasdr: Vunkan internals are actually simpler than OpenGL. It works in the same way as graphics hardware.
<rennj>
steam deck push the amd/vulkan foo
<skirst>
vulkan made me realize why i quit graphics/3d. i can't keep up! lol
<rennj>
amd ftw!
<andreasdr>
I know. I am talking about my developer experience in terms of using Vulkan API, not about driver internals.
<rennj>
wintel to hell
<x512[m]>
Vulkan API is not supposed to be directly used. Developers usually use game engines that provides high-level abstractions.
<rennj>
dont be like that unity!
<rennj>
oh rick!
<rennj>
sdl graphics!
<skirst>
x512[m], hence bridges like zink
<rennj>
someone wanted portable other day gtk/qt talk no body said sdl
<andreasdr>
Ok. Then I was wrong developing my own engine?
<andreasdr>
:D
<x512[m]>
Vulkan also easily allows to introduce proprietary nVidia driver if nVidia want it. Vulkan spec provide API for driver addons. There are no such driver API for OpenGL.
<x512[m]>
skirst: Yes OpenGL can be implemented over Vulkan, as well as Direct3D.
<andreasdr>
Ok. Then go with AMDGPU. Just telling my thoughts.
<skirst>
andreasdr, no one is ever wrong writing their own software. it's the same as writing a song, book, etc.. same thing
<andreasdr>
Yes. True. Actually its really stupid to spend 10 years writing a 3D engine, I did it anyway. LOL.
<rennj>
just killing time till the grave
<skirst>
fuck yeah you did!
<skirst>
that's a good thing
<andreasdr>
:)
<rennj>
least im enjoying the ride
<andreasdr>
Yaaaaaaaaa.
<rennj>
enjoy the ride to the grave
<rennj>
the critical drinker movie reviews!
<andreasdr>
Maybe I can start a business soon, I can even release games on Haiku, OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD, Windows and MacOSX. We will even have PBR graphics soon.
<skirst>
rennj, why so negative? someone shit in your corn flakes?
<andreasdr>
With a full featured Editor also.
<andreasdr>
ROCK AND ROLL.
<rennj>
negative for you perhaps
<andreasdr>
I am thinking of porting TDME2 to MorphOS also, but they have fixed pipeline.
<andreasdr>
This is a bit crazy. No shaders at all.
<rennj>
reality is not positive or negative it just is...
<andreasdr>
Fixed Pipeline.
<skirst>
rennj, right on. to each their own
<rennj>
just killing time till the grave
<x512[m]>
OpenGL do not die. It can continue live forever over Vulkan.
<x512[m]>
But implementing 2 sets of drivers for both OpenGL and Vulkan is troublesome and vendors may abandon OpenGL ones because OpenGL over Vulkan works fine.
<x512[m]>
Big game engines can work directly over Vulkan.
<andreasdr>
But if you port mesa eco system and drm drivers you have this all, or am I wrong?
<x512[m]>
andreasdr: For Vulkan Mesa builds only Vulkan driver add-on without all ecosystem mess. It can be not implemented for Vulkan.
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<x512[m]>
No GBM, winsys etc.
<andreasdr>
Ok. But you have this already. Or not?
<x512[m]>
So Vulkan has its own ecosystem not based on Mesa.
<skirst>
you gotta glue it together
<andreasdr>
I dont know what to discuss actually. You can of course go with Vulkan.
<andreasdr>
:)
<andreasdr>
If you have some sort of compatibility to GL everything is fine.
<andreasdr>
I would say.
<x512[m]>
Current Haiku OpenGL Mesa port is poorly designed and it not consider hardware acceleration at all.
<andreasdr>
Ok.
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<andreasdr>
What big game engines do you expect to have for Haiku If I may ask?
<x512[m]>
Hardware accelerated OpenGL drivers are not building so easily as Vulkan ones.
<andreasdr>
Ah Ok. I see.
<rennj>
software rendering for all..no hardware!
<rennj>
beos did it in software
<andreasdr>
I think the biggest is Godot :)
<andreasdr>
Never used Godot, but seems to be nice and even not that huge.
<rennj>
videorecorder was software based
<x512[m]>
I think that software developers should not worry about OpenGL support. It will be available anyway directly or using Vulkan based implementation.
<Begasus>
heading down, g'night peeps
<x512[m]>
Tje problem is old graphics cards that have no Vulkan support.
<rennj>
and /array2 was striped raid0 usb flash drives
<rennj>
software raid 0
<rennj>
not hardware raid
<rennj>
tv recording from brooktree card
<Not-5726>
[haikuports/haikuports] korli pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±1] https://git.io/Jzx9A
<Not-5726>
[haikuports/haikuports] korli c138ecb - python39: remove cmd:python and cmd:python3
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<skirst>
x512[m], where is that divide though? when cards that can't support vulkan and ones that do. i've always wondered that. you seem to be more informed on the matter
<skirst>
just no driver support or hardware limitations?
<andreasdr>
Usually BSD and Linux is behind regarding graphics drivers. I even have trouble using a "older" Radeon 5700XT with Linux, FreeBSD. So where do you expect to get those newer graphics drivers from?
<x512[m]>
I am not very detailed at GPU history, so I can't tell first GPU with Vulkan support for all vendors.
<rennj>
Vulkan was first announced by the non-profit Khronos Group at GDC 2015.[13][19][20] The Vulkan API was initially referred to as the "next generation OpenGL initiative", or "OpenGL next"[21] by Khronos, but use of those names was discontinued when Vulkan was announced.
<andreasdr>
The best experience I had was with a VEGA 56.
<andreasdr>
With Vulkan also
<andreasdr>
I suggest to try a VEGA 64. Guess this is best supported and newest card you can actually NOW get.
<rennj>
sgi irix boxes was opengl begining..
<rennj>
sun ibm hp dec didnt get opengl support in x11 till later
<x512[m]>
Intel and AMD provides latest open source GPU drivers. nVidia can be ignored unless it decide to build Haiku drivers.
<rennj>
heh open
<rennj>
voodoo was opengl for pc's version 1.0
<rennj>
3dfx company
<rennj>
add in cards
<rennj>
now pc could do opengl
<rennj>
wintel/m$ response was directx
<andreasdr>
Vulkan came out 2016 if I remember right.
<andreasdr>
So newer cards should support it hardware wise.
<rennj>
Vulkan is derived from and built upon components of AMD's Mantle API, which was donated by AMD to Khronos with the intent of giving Khronos a foundation on which to begin developing a low-level API that they could standardize across the industry.[
<rennj>
why i rooting for steam deck
<andreasdr>
Yep. True. Read that too
<x512[m]>
Honestly I an not 3D games fan and I play it a few. I prefer Vulkan primary because it has cleaner architecture and easier to port.
<andreasdr>
I see. No worries. Nice discussion. Thank you.
<andreasdr>
TDME3 will maybe have an to Vulkan adapted API I guess while trying to keep GL support for older graphics cards.
<rennj>
Nvidia Corporation reintroduced the SLI acronym in 2004 (though it now stands for Scalable Link Interface). NVIDIA's SLI, compared to 3dfx's SLI, is modernized to use graphics cards interfaced over the PCI Express bus.
<win8linux[m]>
<kallisti5[m]> "flat is the one i'm thinking..." <- Been saying for a while now that FlatStyle should become official.
<win8linux[m]>
It is a set of themes that balance both modern design trends while still retaining the distinctive Haiku/BeOS identity.
<win8linux[m]>
Also they've been semi-regularly breaking nighties for a long time, which might be solvable if they ship as official themes.
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<win8linux[m]>
The dark variants may also be quite useful in looking for hardcoded colours in Haiku applications and other potential theming issues.
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<x512[m]>
andreasdr: Are you still here?
<andreasdr>
Yes
<andreasdr>
Sir
<andreasdr>
Just grooving in to have a work session.
<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] 337b483bd890 - XHCI: Use MutexLocker in _LinkDescriptorForPipe.
<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] ffc83aa24aa2 - USB bus drivers: Add missing iterator increments.
<x512[m]>
andreasdr: What DRM kernel driver version are you tried to use?
<x512[m]>
What about drm-kmod?
<andreasdr>
With which graphics card? Which OS? I tried every combination I guess. FreeBSD, XUbuntu, OpenBSD, recently NetBSD, recently OpenBSD.
<andreasdr>
With mostly the newer graphics card.
<andreasdr>
The old 3 graphics cards that I ordered last week I tried with NetBSD, OpenBSD only.
<andreasdr>
The 5850 with Linux also.
<x512[m]>
I mean your Haiku DRM port.
<andreasdr>
My HAIKUDRM port does not yet do something useful. It just compiles and throws lots of linker errors. My mission was to get a graphics board that works with RADEONDRM on OpenBSD, to be sure to have no parameter in equation that would block my while continue RADEONDRM on Haiku. I failed.
<andreasdr>
Because the port is derived from OpenBSD 6.8.
<andreasdr>
BTW. OpenBSD has recent graphics card drivers,
<andreasdr>
just like FreeBSD
<andreasdr>
NetBSD is very far behind.
<andreasdr>
Ill grab a coffee.
<x512[m]>
What was the reason to chose OpenBSD as port base? It is easier than other *BSD ports?
<waddlesplash>
yes
<waddlesplash>
FreeBSD uses a full linux compatibility layer
<waddlesplash>
openbsd drm ports are mostly "nativized" and use BSD KPIs directly
<ffog>
as a noob to porting, i'm curious what it would take to port 9front drawterm to haiku http://drawterm.9front.org/
<andreasdr>
Looks like that. I think they have drivers from Linux 5.3 for OpenBSD 6.8
<andreasdr>
I used OpenBSD 6.8
<andreasdr>
Now they are at OpenBSD 6.9
<andreasdr>
They even got a newer DRM port from Linux in Current
<andreasdr>
Dont remember all of the details exactly.
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<x512[m]>
If amdgpu driver from OpenBSD works, I want to make it primary porting goal for now.
<andreasdr>
It worked good last time I tried with OpenBSD 6.8 or 6.9. Dont remember. Go for it :)
<andreasdr>
Grab a VEGA 64 or XT5700 and try on your own.
<andreasdr>
This would be really the nicest driver to have for Haiku.
<andreasdr>
Because you could even play really new games with it.
<andreasdr>
2k only, those cards are not really ready for AAA with 4k
<andreasdr>
Too slow.
<andreasdr>
But for 2k they are really nice. My observations at least. Maybe I am wrong.
<andreasdr>
Try e.g. google maps in OpenBSD 6.9.
<andreasdr>
And see if it crashes the OS
<x512[m]>
Any OpenBSD LiveUSB with GUI available?
<andreasdr>
No idea.
<x512[m]>
Tried to build your DRM repo and it fails with: `./../../../../../../headers/build/BeOSBuildCompatibility.h:56:16: error: conflicting declaration of C function 'ssize_t writev_pos(int, off_t, const iovec*, size_t)'
<x512[m]>
`.
<andreasdr>
Dont know, last time I tried it did work.
<andreasdr>
Maybe a few adjustments. No idea, I have not touched it for 9 months, because I did not had time.
<andreasdr>
Also did you exactly build it like i did?
<andreasdr>
The whole haiku src from my repo?
<x512[m]>
It seems writev_pos is changed in local Haiku headers.
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<x512[m]>
I managed to get it to linker failure stage.
<andreasdr>
Ok.
<andreasdr>
:)
<andreasdr>
Was 3 weeeeeeeks work to get it to that stage.
<andreasdr>
Half time I would guess.
<andreasdr>
Now If I would do this with AMDPU, guess some much more time.
<andreasdr>
Half working days I meant for 3 weeks.
<andreasdr>
Its pretty much described in README whats left to connect it to Haiku OS.
<andreasdr>
Sounds lot, but maybe its easy for a Haiku professional like you are.
<Ellenor>
by comparison to Minix 3 (mukernel) at 0 and to FreeBSD (monolithic kernel) at 10, how tied together is Haiku?
<waddlesplash>
modular monolithic
<waddlesplash>
the kernel itself contains the virtual memory manager, process management, interrupts, etc. while basically all device management (including the PCI bus) is in dynamically loaded modules
<andreasdr>
See you later, need to restart my computer.
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