<Begasus[m]>
Forza PR for Haiku should go to gerrit, not github afaik
<jmairboeck>
Begasus[m]: that is for the infrastructure repo, not Haiku itself
<Begasus[m]>
ah, my bad then :)
<Begasus[m]>
didn't look further :D
<Begasus>
k, I'm back here :)
<Forza>
Hi =)
<Forza>
Yea, the infrastructure is still on github
<Forza>
I saw a thread about moving away from docker.io due to things. This kind of thing happened before and lead to github->gitlab migrations. If open source projects are worried, is self-hosting not an option?
* Begasus
is not familiar there
<Begasus>
ah haikuwebkit finaly made it at 32bit buildmaster :)
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<Forza>
waddlesplash: I thought maybe he was away or so. Thanks :)
<x512[m]>
Forza: Please no Gitlab. It is terrible and it is not working in many Haiku browsers.
<Begasus>
+1 from me x512[m]
<nipos>
Better than some proprietary M$ crap in any case,but yes,Gitlab is also not great,Forgejo and Gitea are better and work perfectly fine in any browser.
<Begasus>
although it's better with latest changes in WebPositive (gitlab)
<x512[m]>
There are nothing wrong in GitHub being proprietary. Hosted code is opensource anyway and can be quickly migrated if some problem occur.
<nipos>
walled-gardens are awful for contributing
<x512[m]>
It is not wise to not use free service instead of spending very limited resources on self-hosting.
<nipos>
If that's the whole point,I can sponsor a server for free
<x512[m]>
Registering on GitHub is easy.
<Forza>
x512[m]: i didnt mean Haiku should move to gitlab. I just generally that maybe swlfhosting could be an option
<nipos>
Registering on a proprietary M$ property is something people refuse to do for good reasons
<x512[m]>
It is tin foil co conspiracy level nonsense.
<nipos>
There are open-source-powered alternatives that also offer free services,like Codeberg which uses the Forgejo software
<Forza>
I use Gitea on my own server. Seems good enough for my uses. But i haven't looked into any advanced usage
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<nipos>
But not depending on anyone else would be the best solution,so self-hosting,even if it costs money.Working with our Gerrit platform is great,it's easy and user-friendly and free software of course.Having that for the whole project would be great.I try to avoid touching stuff in HaikuArchives now only because the platform sucks.But bugs don't fix themselves,so yeah...
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<nipos>
I use Codeberg for my own stuff,but honestly,it doesn't matter.I don't get why people have problems registering separate accounts for websites.It's not like they cost something.I'd use whatever I'm offered for contributing,as long as the platform is free software itself,and not ran/hosted by some GAFAM company would also be great.
<x512[m]>
Without GitHub many projects in HaikuArchives may be already lost forever.
<x512[m]>
Previous self-hosting platforms suchs as HaikuWare, OS Drawer etc. are dead.
<nipos>
No.Having them on Haikus own infra wouldn't make them magically disappear.And you can still mirror them if you're concerned about that
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<x512[m]>
Haiku infrastructure seems already lost HaikuPorts package sources mirror.
<nipos>
HaikuWare was run by a private person,like Github is run by a private company that probably doesn't give a shit about this project,and both can disappear.Having Haiku Inc. care about that seems like the safest choice
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<nipos>
I really like that this topic is brought up by many different people over time.So yeah,I know I'm not the only one pissed off by this.Fuck Micro$oft
<Forza>
Maybe distributed backups with people is an option if we care about persisting stuff
<nipos>
Software archives can even be uploaded to https://archive.org and I don't think they randomly lose stuff?
<x512[m]>
GitHub is currently is most robust source code store solution. Code will remain even if all participants are dead.
<x512[m]>
And it is all for free.
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<nipos>
That's simply not true.Why would Codeberg or GitLab.com or Archive.org or whatever delete stuff when programmers are dead?
<nipos>
Nothing is free
<nipos>
If you aren't paying for it,you *are* the product and the advertiser pays for it.
<x512[m]>
archive.org do not support serving Git repositories.
<Forza>
They lock it in? Isnt FB and X doing that. Keeps your digital afterlife forever
<nipos>
Pack your source archive as .tar.gz and upload it,is it that difficult?
<x512[m]>
Not practical.
<nipos>
If you want to persistently preserve a specific version or so,it totally is.Otherwise,mirror your stuff to multiple Git servers.Git makes decentralization extremely easy.Just pull from one server and push to another.
<x512[m]>
Decentralization works in practice only if software is very popular.
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<nipos>
It can be done by a single person.Just push your stuff to two or three servers.Codeberg even allows automating this by setting up push mirrors,where your changes are automatically uploaded to
<x512[m]>
But GitHub stores even not so popular software. Still for free. Without ads.
<x512[m]>
Rationally the best solution.
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<nipos>
Codeberg and Gitlab.com do the same,and they're free software.Codeberg is even a non-profit organization
<x512[m]>
As I said before, GitLab Web UI is terrible.
<nipos>
Codeberg is rationally the best solution if you don't want to self-host.And pretending that M$ cares about anything else than their own profit is dumb,sorry.
<x512[m]>
There are no even a single evidence for MS doing something evil with GitHub.
<nipos>
Sure,the Gitlab UI is terrible,but it's free software,feel free to improve it.The Github UI has also gone worse over the years with no chance to improve it.And there are enough alternatives to Gitlab.Forgejo,which Codeberg uses,for example.And have a look here: https://alternativeto.net/software/github/?license=opensource
<x512[m]>
It is nothing more than slander about MS GitHub.
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<nipos>
There are enough reasons why Github terribly sucks and M$ is a outstandingly evil company,but if you want to read longer stuff...
<x512[m]>
Why you keeping to send here this nonsense propaganda?
<nipos>
This is neither nonsense,nor propaganda.
<nipos>
Why do people keep asking to get rid of this proprietary walled-garden
<x512[m]>
Try to say it in court.
<waddlesplash>
please take this somewhere else, or just don't bother with it
<waddlesplash>
HaikuPorts and HaikuArchives use GitHub and are not likely to change that anytime soon
<waddlesplash>
if and when MS decides to change GitHub in a way we can't deal with, then we'll move, same as we have before
<waddlesplash>
but in the meantime it doesn't make sense not to use it, and I really don't get all the claims about how bad it supposedly is.
<nipos>
You can not force me to use this crap
<nipos>
Maybe it's a good idea to just fork HaikuArchives stuff I care about,and put it on my Codeberg account
<waddlesplash>
so far you haven't given any reasons why GitHub is a problem at the moment that amount to anything substantial
<x512[m]>
> Maybe it's a good idea to just fork HaikuArchives stuff I care about,and put it on my Codeberg account
<waddlesplash>
MS is a for profit company that does stuff in their own self interest, sure. And if and when they do something unpalatable to GitHub we will deal with it
<waddlesplash>
but that hasn't happened yet. So I don't see the problem
<x512[m]>
You of course can do it anytime without asking here. It is open source software where you have a right to redistribute.
<nipos>
Why should I repeat what Free Software Conservancy and many others have already said?Please read the link I mentioned: https://sfconservancy.org/GiveUpGitHub/
<waddlesplash>
nipos: a lot of this is about copyleft. We aren't copyleft and aren't particular fans of copyleft
<waddlesplash>
so that isn't relevant
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<waddlesplash>
And as for GitHub Copilot it's also irrelevant because Haiku 's code is not going to disappear from GitHub if we moved, and they could scan it anyway even if it did because, well, it's open source
<waddlesplash>
so, most of these concerns simply do not apply
<x512[m]>
About Copilot: just do not use Copilot and you are fine. Even if you do not host code on GitHub, it still can be scanned by Copilot because of GitHub mirrors. You can't prohibit making GitHub mirrors without making your software non-free and incompatible with open source licenses.
<nipos>
My own stuff is always copyleft and it's great,but for me that isn't the point.Forcing people who want to spend their free time to contribute and improve open-source software to use some random non-free platform owned by a for-profit company is just not nice to those people.
<waddlesplash>
nipos: and what's the difference to making us use "some random free platform"?
<waddlesplash>
either way someone is "made" to use something random
<waddlesplash>
the differences seem to mostly come down to "the vibes" as the saying goes, practically speaking
<x512[m]>
For example I can make GitHub mirror of nipos Codeberg etc. repos even if he is not giving permission as long it use OSI approved license.
<waddlesplash>
sure, having direct communication with the people who run the service and being able to change its code is pretty neat
<waddlesplash>
but we don't really need that
<nipos>
Self-hosting would be the ideal choice,of course.If you want to contribute to Haiku,you have to trust Haiku Inc. to not do shady shit,and trust nobody else.Yes,I personally would also trust Codeberg because they're a non-profit,but I definitely don't trust Micro$oft or any other of the GAFAM
<waddlesplash>
trust them how? what does trust mean?
<waddlesplash>
what are we trusting MS and GitHub to do exactly that's somehow "too far"?
<Forza>
My take is simply to avoid being tied in too deeply to make migration too difficult or costly. I dont see github as too bad, other than becoming too big stifles competition and thus inovations.
<waddlesplash>
every time you use Haiku servers you're exchanging data with our hosting provider. They're proprietary and they use closed source software. So is Haiku tainted by that?
<waddlesplash>
Or do you not care because you don't interact with it directly and it's "opaque" to you?
<Forza>
Github is definitely easy to work with so might as well keep it for now
<nipos>
Trust for example that they won't lock me out for some nonsense reason,like thinking I'm a bot as they have in the past,or wanting my phone number,which I won't give away.
<x512[m]>
Actually Git is quite protected from malicious actions such as injecting malware code. So you can store code on untrusted service and still be safe. Unintended changes will alter Git commit hashes.
<Forza>
nipos: that's why you have backups and a plan what to do
<Forza>
I.e Adobe did this.
<waddlesplash>
nipos: I don't think I've ever given GitHub my phone number. You don't have to either
<nipos>
Backups isn't the point,I never had any important stuff there.But I was locked-out from contributing to software I like.And that sucks.No centralized platform should be in the position to decide who is allowed to contribute somewhere,and who isn't
<x512[m]>
nipos: GitHub do not require your phone number.
<nipos>
They require their 2FA shit
<x512[m]>
I have never added it.
<nipos>
I also won't install any stupid app on my phone
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<nipos>
They limit my freedom to choose about my own security and login settings,and call it more security.It doesn't have to be.Maybe my password was auto-generated by a password generator and 30 chars long??
<nipos>
Fine,I won't register another account at this crap company anyway.I'm happy they agreed to delete it in the end.
<Forza>
nipos: there are many 2fa apps, open source too
<x512[m]>
Probably because there are a lot of dump people who choose weak password.
<nipos>
That is *their* problem
<nipos>
My password was safe and it's the responsibility of the user to choose a safe one.
<nipos>
I'll never allow any company to tell me what I have to do.
<Forza>
2fa isn't bad. Unique app passwords/tokens is an alternative
<nipos>
I'd also quit Codeberg if they were to introduce something like that,but I doubt it's in their interest to scare away users
<nipos>
M$ always think they know what users of their products need or want.A shit do they know.I just want them to leave me alone.
<Forza>
Well let haiku choose their way too. That's their freedom to do so too
<nipos>
It's also my freedom not to contribute then
<x512[m]>
Of course. But please do not spread propaganda.
<nipos>
I mean I'll continue to contribute to the base system because it's on self-hosted Gerrit,luckily.But no fixes for HaikuArchives stuff then.And there are a lot which could take some dark mode improvements
<x512[m]>
You can send patch files that will be merged by someone else/
<nipos>
I'll of course continue to say my opinion,wether you like it or not.I also dislike yours and don't tell you to shut up
<waddlesplash>
honestly I wouldn't be opposed to requiring 2FA on Gerrit
<waddlesplash>
we don't have any plans to but it would probably make sense
<nipos>
Fine,more time watching TV then lol
<waddlesplash>
it's an open standard
<waddlesplash>
with many open source implementations
<waddlesplash>
what is the problem here?
<nipos>
Feel free to offer it as an option,but don't force people to do what you want
<x512[m]>
I see no meaning in 2FA if proper passwords are used. And I am against forcing it.
<waddlesplash>
the point of 2FA is that it doesn't matter how secure your password is, it can get stolen many different ways
<Forza>
i personally use FreeOTP+.
<x512[m]>
waddlesplash: 2FA is just yet again password that can be also stolen.
<waddlesplash>
but with 2FA, if you steal one TOTP code, you can only log in once
<waddlesplash>
x512[m]: sure. But you need to gain access to the TOTP app directly to get it.
<nipos>
I'm not opposed to having options for people who like it,but forcing users to do something you think is right,and they may not like,is something we should better not copy from non-free software
<Forza>
Yea, 'hacking' otp stuff is a lot harder than geting hold of a users password
<x512[m]>
I would not trust smartphone software. There are various spying malware such as Pegasus that can steal passwords from smartphone.
<x512[m]>
PCs are more secure if used properly.
<x512[m]>
Even iOS is easily cracked.
<waddlesplash>
nipos: we already make users do a lot of things which some people don't like. like use packagefs for example
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<nipos>
I'd never trust any smartphone.Most people don't even ungoogle them 🙄 And even then,the system is still proprietary because there aren't custom ROMs for most devices 😭
<Skipp_OSX>
I lost my ability to login to Gerrit with the last password change... so I use GitHub login instead and that works fine, with two-factor authentication.
<x512[m]>
waddlesplash: It is not a thing to be proud of.
<waddlesplash>
x512[m]: Every software project has to make decisions about how things are going to work, and those decisions will ultimately make users to use the software a certain way
<waddlesplash>
That's just inevitable
<Skipp_OSX>
I guess I didn't get my password change in on time and so i lost access to account through the normal login process, although GitHub login works so no big deal.
<waddlesplash>
I think packagefs is a good design and making it non-optional is excellent
<waddlesplash>
Skipp_OSX: you can change your password after logging in via GitHub if you want
<nipos>
I personally think PackageFS is great and the best package management solution I've seen so far (and I've seen many) but a technical choice to implement something is quite a difference to something you force on users because you want to prove your point,while it could be easily disabled if you only wanted to.
<waddlesplash>
but packagefs *could* be disabled. we could have used any number of other mechanisms to implement the package manager
<waddlesplash>
we didn't do it to "prove a point" and neither did GitHub enact 2FA to "prove a point"
<x512[m]>
packagefs can be disabled, but there are currently no tool for automated HPKG installation without packagefs.
<waddlesplash>
so I don't see the difference
<nipos>
Yes,but it's not as trivial as unchecking a checkbox in some admin panel
<waddlesplash>
so?
<Skipp_OSX>
not really... I mean, packagefs and overlay file systems are a big part of the design of the package manager.
<waddlesplash>
using a file based package manager would have been easier from the start
<waddlesplash>
even now it's certainly possible from a technical standpoint to switch to one
<waddlesplash>
without changing HaikuPorts even a bit
<Skipp_OSX>
yeah but we wanted fancy overlay file system...
<waddlesplash>
so, I still don't see what the difference here is
<x512[m]>
I think it is still beneficial to implement non-packagefs pkgman for running it on non-Haiku hosts.
<nipos>
Disabling 2FA very likely is as easy as unchecking a checkbox,for M$,but they don't want it.They want to piss off users just because they have the power to do so.
<waddlesplash>
packagefs has a ton of advantages and I don't think we'll ever get rid of it. optimize it, refactor it, etc. sure.
<x512[m]>
To cross-compile Haiku software and CI for example.
<waddlesplash>
nipos: I don't see it that way at all and I severely doubt GitHub developers did either. In fact knowing how corporate processes work I suspect there was a long internal debate about whether to do it or not
<waddlesplash>
So I don't think your assumptions here about malicious intent are founded at all
<waddlesplash>
x512[m]: I'd rather we wire packagefs to FUSE
<waddlesplash>
but that may be more work
<x512[m]>
Some projects require CI support for accepting Haiku patches upstream.
<nipos>
PackageFS is one of the features I like most here,actually.Installing and uninstalling stuff is faster and cleaner than anywhere else.I wonder if people who cry about the little additional RAM it needs ever tried to run a recent version of Windows,or even a big app like Firefox
<waddlesplash>
yes
<waddlesplash>
I'd like to see anyone complaining about Haiku's current memory usage boot a Linux desktop to a modern web browser in less
<waddlesplash>
we clearly can and should optimize more, but things aren't so bad
<waddlesplash>
if packagefs is properly efficient it should actually use *less* memory than the equivalent BFS cache in memory
<nipos>
A modern Linux desktop uses a lot more RAM than Haiku,even without opening Firefox
<waddlesplash>
right
<nipos>
And even with all that RAM,it feels a lot slower and not nearly as nice to use.The year of the Haiku desktop will happen before the year of the Linux desktop,for sure :D
<x512[m]>
I think it is possible to optimize packagefs memory usage by loading inodes on demand.
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<x512[m]>
Only file paths and maybe modified timestamp are needed to decide from which HPKG each file come from.
<x512[m]>
Also if some directory is not merged with any other HPKG, its contents do not need merging and can be provided directly. Loading information about its contents to RAM is not needed.
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<Skipp_OSX>
The BTextView is receiving a B_COLORS_UPDATED message but setting the view/low/high colors here has no effect because we need to SetFontAndColor() for a BTextView...
<Skipp_OSX>
I'm not sure exactly, something probably needs to be handled in BTextView class to make the color updating work without extra case.
<waddlesplash>
Skipp_OSX: BTextView should record whether a font and color was set and if not use the new color
<waddlesplash>
or rather maybe it should accept a ui_color
<Skipp_OSX>
yeah something like that
<waddlesplash>
for font and color rather than an RGB color and use that
<waddlesplash>
then the default case will work too
<Skipp_OSX>
There are problems with the way we're updating the colors in BWindow and BView, but they are orthogonal to this issue, the problem is in BTextView.
<waddlesplash>
yeah I see your comment
<waddlesplash>
can we revert the changes to forward the messages then?
<waddlesplash>
one patch was already committed with those
<Skipp_OSX>
no, we need it
<Skipp_OSX>
for now
<waddlesplash>
? what am I missing
<Skipp_OSX>
text colors will not update without that
<waddlesplash>
I'm confused
<waddlesplash>
I thought you said BTextView doesn't pay attention to the color updates
<waddlesplash>
from the COLORS CHANGED message
<waddlesplash>
so the views receiving the messages twice won't change anything
<Skipp_OSX>
right, the default, but we're overriding that in FontSelectionView
<Skipp_OSX>
Yeah, it should get called as a child of FontView but doesn't idk why, but we are definitely calling on all children.
<Skipp_OSX>
Maybe something to do with the layout? i'm not sure.
<waddlesplash>
this sounds like a bug either way
<Skipp_OSX>
it is, yeah
<waddlesplash>
can we open a ticket so we don't forget about it?
<Skipp_OSX>
I suppose...
<waddlesplash>
or just fix the problem
<waddlesplash>
either way, let's not clutter up the code like this forever
<Skipp_OSX>
I was working on fixing the problem, got lost in weeds.
<Skipp_OSX>
As far as I can tell, it's in a layout, but that should still be in the view hierarchy and get called, but it's not for some reason.
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<nipos>
I had a printf in MessageReceived in my test code.That's where I noticed that the View never gets the message and I implemented the forwarding then
<botifico>
[haiku/website] humdingerb 4dcdd6e - Get Haiku: Add warning about beta4 repositories being down (#714)
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<Skipp_OSX>
ok I'm looking
<Skipp_OSX>
It's definitely not receiving the message or not using it because the color doesn't get updated.
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<waddlesplash>
Skipp_OSX: but the preview box still isn't the FontSelectionView itself
<waddlesplash>
perhaps you should make FontSelectionView inherit from BBox?
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<Skipp_OSX>
it's the fPreviewTextView that's the problem, but it's getting added, it's in the view hierarchy somewhere.
<Skipp_OSX>
The text view is in the box, the box is added to the layout... I'm not sure why this doesn't work.
<waddlesplash>
no, it's not?
<waddlesplash>
the code that matters is inside FontSelectionView
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<waddlesplash>
this code isn't ever called
<waddlesplash>
unless we invoke it manually
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<Skipp_OSX>
I know the code isn't called unless we call it manually but I don't know why that's the case... it's in the layout, it's in the view hierarchy, it should be getting called.
<Skipp_OSX>
there could be a BLayout or BLayoutItem...
<Skipp_OSX>
Maybe that's why, it's hitting that and stopping not seeing a view.
<Skipp_OSX>
is there a way I can dump the hierarchy to see?
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<Skipp_OSX>
... and no good
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<Skipp_OSX>
I reworked it to add the elements to the FontSelectorView, then I added the views to the layout... still not updating the text view colors, everything else updates its colors, but the text view stubbornly refuses.
<waddlesplash>
sure, but do we get B_COLORS_UPDATED in the view at least?
<Skipp_OSX>
I didn't check, but I'm sure it does not as it would update the color if it did
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<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] 006c901891d8 - StringHash: Replace with hashdjb2().
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<Skipp_OSX>
let me try taking the box out see if that works...
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<Skipp_OSX>
no good, but I am getting the message, I forgot I took out the font update...
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<Skipp_OSX>
ok working, but I understand why it's like this, and now I have to fix the first column, and I don't understand weights
<Skipp_OSX>
The first column has to be the same for each grid, that's why the grid was added later all at once. Now I have 4 different grids which works but the first column doesn't line up as it should.