<fancy2209[m]>
It interfaces directly with Radeon HD
<fancy2209[m]>
s/Radeon HD/radeon_hd/
<fancy2209[m]>
* merge it, not even sure what you mean
<coolcoder613>
I'm not very familiar with Haiku driver structure
<coolcoder613>
Pretty much my only interaction with the kernel code was helping waddlesplash fix a KDL that happened when I plugged in a USB floppy drive, by giving him remote access to my PC for a bit
<fancy2209[m]>
I'm not a driver engineer either
<fancy2209[m]>
I've just read some stuff on this
<fancy2209[m]>
I just want to try to get gaming on Haiku at least close on compatibility with OpenBSD One day
<fancy2209[m]>
Not even Linux just OBSD
<andreasdr[m]>
I fancy RadeonGfx
<andreasdr[m]>
coolcoder613: How is C# going?
<fancy2209[m]>
Btw just curious, why was the Debian IceWheasel branding used instead of the GNU IceCat Branding?
<fancy2209[m]>
* Just curious, why was the Debian IceWheasel branding used instead of the GNU IceCat Branding for the Firefox port?
<fancy2209[m]>
Unlike IceWheasel IceCat is actually normally up to date with Firefox
<fancy2209[m]>
When I saw that icon I thought I was downloading Firefox 35 ESR haha
<coolcoder613>
andreasdr[m]: C#?
<andreasdr[m]>
I thought you were the one that ported C# to Haiku.
<coolcoder613>
No
<coolcoder613>
That wasn't me
<coolcoder613>
I was the one who wrote Haiku-PyAPI
<fancy2209[m]>
The .NET GSOC person is still maintaining the .NET Packages surprisingly
<Begasus>
ktexteditor ... one of the harder ones to build (kate plugins etc)
<MonniTheCat>
I still have same handful of recipes waiting in my TODO list... Maybe beta 6 has all the needed stuff, so I don't need to force buildmasters to use newer haiku_devel package...
<Begasus>
there is a reason the buildmasters don't get that many updates on haiku_devel
<MonniTheCat>
Begasus: I know... I've reinstalled Haiku enough times to figure out the correct order of installing stuff from various Git repositories...
<Begasus>
;) getting there :D
<MonniTheCat>
Begasus: I still don't trust when someone who has used Haiku as long as I have tries to tell me some order of installing stuff, when I clearly know the order is incorrect...
<Begasus>
can't comment on that, don't think I've followed that conversation :)
<Begasus>
for me, beta5 is essential as I need to know things build on buildmasters, nightly are fine to check on things
<MonniTheCat>
Begasus: I think you have, but we all have selective memory... We forget things that bring the worst of us...
<Begasus>
if that was about mixing beta and nightly then yes
<Begasus>
each his own, I go for a stable env rather that doing things that way :)
<MonniTheCat>
Begasus: I couldn't do anything with beta 5, it was KDL within few seconds... Now I have Haiku running for almost a day... Usually I end up updating to newer hrev before I hit KDL, but still end up in debugger few times...
<Begasus>
well, stable OS, my env isn't thatt stable always also :P
* Begasus
crosses fingers
<Begasus>
haven't seen a KDL for a long time
<MonniTheCat>
I mostly get in to debugger when Deskbar crashes... But lately Tracker has just gone on wrong tracks... Instead of crashing, it just fails to do something...
<Begasus>
guess I'm fortunate :D
<Begasus>
nice, ktexteditor finished
<MonniTheCat>
I keep hitting in to bugs that happen only in one hrev... Mysteriously next hrev doesn't have the same issue even though there was no change to anything related...
<Begasus>
xmas magic? ;)
<MonniTheCat>
gcc 13 is known to have some nasty issues... not forgetting issues that are caused by incorrect locking in some parts of Haiku itself...
<Begasus[m]>
patches welcome :P PS, someone should start working on gcc14, maybe a good chance to have D with it :)
<MonniTheCat>
gcc is shit... someone should flush it down the toilet...
<Begasus>
nah, good enough for my needs
<Begasus>
took us long enough to move away from 2.95*
<MonniTheCat>
I'm still using gcc 6.5 ... A long way until I need to worry about gcc 13...
<Begasus>
if it works for you +1
<MonniTheCat>
I have clang 19 and 20 if I need to compile modern code...
<Begasus>
haven't done anything related to clang
<Begasus>
so far*
<MonniTheCat>
clang 9 is the only supported compiler for some 64-bit operating systems...
<Begasus>
for my needs gcc13 works fine enough
<MonniTheCat>
Others skipped a whole lot of gcc versions and set gcc 13 as only supported version, gcc 14 is available as source patches, but not as binary packages...
<MonniTheCat>
Even clang used to use some files from gcc 13 and it's dependencies for binary compatibility...
<Begasus[m]>
no idea there :)
<MonniTheCat>
I noticed some issues when I tried to install clang to a clean installation... It just wouldn't work...
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<Begasus>
afk for a while
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<jentoo>
Anyone here?
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<phschafft>
mau.
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<Begasus[m]>
whoof
<Begasus[m]>
re
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<Begasus>
hi OscarL!
<OscarL>
Good Sunday, Begasus!
<OscarL>
trying to learn to use the find_path() API (instead of keep using find_directory())...
<OscarL>
Had to do some code search on HaikuArchives to find some example usages (API has no examples, and I always need examples :-D).
<Begasus[m]>
same here :) think I'm done with the frameworks
<OscarL>
Just noticed that, while you can ask it to find paths only under system, or only user packages... it doesn't seems to provide a way to exclude paths under "non-packaged/"
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<OscarL>
"B_FIND_PATH_EXISTING_ONLY" is certainly useful, but I would like to combine it with something like B_FIND_PATH_NO_NON_PACKAGED, to ensure we are reading only from a .hpkg (either on /system/, or on hone/config/)
<OscarL>
Begasus[m]: wow, part 7 just dropped! :-)
<OscarL>
I guess I could do a quick scan on your PRs Begasus[m], just in case, but don't expect too much :-D
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<OscarL>
"export LIBRARY_PATH="$sourceDir/build/bin${LIBRARY_PATH:+:$LIBRARY_PATH}"" seems needesly complicated to me. Isn't ${LIBRARY_PATH:+:$LIBRARY_PATH} just the same as ${LIBRARY_PATH} ?
<Begasus>
almost 23MiB still in the debug packages
<Begasus>
so for "Release" debug packages are obsolete?
<OscarL>
I might be wrong, of course, but for me, it makes sense to only use defineDebugInfoPackage together with "-DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=RelWithDebInfo"
<OscarL>
if using only type "Release", I would drop the debuginfo packages.
<OscarL>
again, that's just my limited understanding of it.
<Begasus>
OK, not sure if I'm pushing it for this release though, don't think it will hurt? (PS I guess lot's of other recipes would need a cleanup on that too then) :)
<OscarL>
what is that diver wanted? dropping the RelWithDebInfo? or just not having that used for recipes without an actual _develinfo package.
<Begasus[m]>
nothing "wanted" asked about the increase of the size on previous 6.7.0 :)
<OscarL>
ah.
<OscarL>
ok. of course, incremental progress is better than wating for ever for perfect that never comes, so... we might just collect notes for future clean up tasks :-)
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<Begasus[m]>
yeah, I'm still learning :D
<Begasus[m]>
doggies ...
<OscarL>
specially with such big of an update.... better to get it ouf of the door, and fix small things later :-)
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<OscarL>
(even if just to avoid possibly frustating the person doing so much work)
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<Begasus[m]>
no problem, at one point it has to be fine for the person behind me :)
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<OscarL>
done looking at Part7... and I'm already tired... you have some nice stamina, Begasus! :-D
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<Begasus>
as mentioned, have been working up from 6.7.0, so groundwork already done, but yeah, it's pretty big all in all
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<Begasus>
ok, final word, when using Release type no debug package?
* Begasus
pings OscarL and jmairboeck
<Begasus>
if so might as well do it in this row
<OscarL>
For me it is: using "Release" makes debug package irrelevant, or if having debug package, then need to use "RelWithDebInfo".
<OscarL>
but I'm no expert, so... better wait for jmairboeck, or waddlesplash, or PulkoMandy to chime in? :-D
<Begasus>
fair enough :)
<OscarL>
In any case, using Release should make builds faster than RelWithDebInfo... and using release would make those debuginfo packages smaller anyway so...
<OscarL>
that's why I thought it could be done later on, in case you needed a break from this :-D
* OscarL
starts reading Part6
<Begasus>
can check other parts as gwenview, no hurry here (yet) :)
<OscarL>
(no new notes on Part6 from me... Part5, here we go)
<Begasus>
+1
<OscarL>
On Part4... attica recipe...
<OscarL>
"extra_cmake_modules$secondaryArchSuffix" doesn't needs a >= $portVersion as in other places?
<Begasus>
missed that probably
<Begasus>
shouldn't be needed anymore
<Begasus>
only 1 ECM
<OscarL>
I see, it doesn't has it on kcontacts6 either. the one with >= portVersion was on Part7, IIC.
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<OscarL>
yes, krunner6
<Begasus>
could be that I forgot one or ... adding it to Marknote "cleanup" :)
<OscarL>
as I know nothing about all this... just looking for patterns that differ here :-)
<Begasus>
thanks for giving it a run over, better to fix this now :)
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<OscarL>
Onto part3... big one!ç
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<OscarL>
Begasus: kded6 also uses extra_cmake_modules$secondaryArchSuffix >= $portVersion
<OscarL>
kglobalaccel6 too.
<Begasus>
yeah, I'll have a look when I do the runover on all, noted :)
<OscarL>
probably better to just run "git grep 'extra_cmake_modules$secondaryArchSuffix >= $portVersion'", in case I miss one :-)
<OscarL>
(or inrecipe '....')
<Begasus>
in "kde-frameworks", who knows how many I'll bump into from root :P
<Begasus>
reboot
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<OscarL>
the rest might have it too, just didn't showed up on the side-by-side diff :-D
<OscarL>
(better run that grep :-D)
<OscarL>
No new notes on Part1.
<Begasus>
if I pull out the debug package I have to run them over anyway :)
<Begasus>
bah, CPU's not co-operating on Gwenview :P
<OscarL>
alternatively, switch back to RelWithDebInfo for the recipes that have deb packages.
<Begasus>
that's the same work :)
<OscarL>
not sure what's the "intention"... do we want debuginfo packages for KDE stuff or not?
<OscarL>
I never used them, but...
<Begasus>
I added them for 6.7.0 and up here for checking
<Begasus>
no real issues popped up, so can be set back to Release
<OscarL>
too bad there's no proper block-comments on recipes, otherwise you could just wrap "/* */" around the defineDebugInfoPackage blocks :-D
<Begasus>
fix that? :P
<OscarL>
bash limitation.
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<Begasus>
dash also? ;)
<OscarL>
in any case... maybe it *is* better to just add "#" on those blocks instead of just deleting them?
<Begasus>
that's an option too
<OscarL>
(I mean... you put some effort in writing them, and adding the correct stuff there)
<OscarL>
I think I would to that, to be honest.
<Begasus>
saves a re-write in case yes
<OscarL>
unless in the future we add something like "recipe options" as I did for the python ones... "optimizedBuild = true/false"
<OscarL>
but seems overkill. commenting them out sounds like a good compromise.
<OscarL>
(the options for python on the other hand, I use quite often)
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<Begasus[m]>
a bit like Gentoo uses them
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* OscarL
replaces RobinHood's "Download PHP" method, that tried to open bebits page, with an alert() telling the user to use HaikuDepot/pkgman instead.
* OscarL
uses "git add -p" for the first time. quite handy!
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<OscarL>
"hp -e" should auto-remove empty patchset files (can get those from $sourceDirs2/3/+)
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<Begasus>
"git add -p"?
<OscarL>
yep.
<OscarL>
usefull when you made some changes to a file...
<Begasus>
not the answer I expected :P
<OscarL>
but you only want to commit part of those changes.
<OscarL>
(possibly to commit the changes separately, even if you made them all at once)
<Begasus>
in case you are not sure about the rest?
<OscarL>
for example... right now I made two unrelated changes... one using find_path instead of find_directory... and changing the "open bebits link" for an alert.
<OscarL>
wanted those changes commited separately.
<OscarL>
used git add -p to select which parts to "stage" first (the find_paths() changes), commited those, and then just used "git add -u ." for the other part.
<Begasus>
halfway there, but I get your point :)
<OscarL>
forgot to include StringList.h :-(
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<MonniTheCat>
Removing empty patchset files break the recipe... Would have to implement adding missing patchset files too...
<OscarL>
if a .recipe mentions empty patchsets, that needs fixing.
<MonniTheCat>
In one recipe I had to convert individual patch files to a patchset file manually...
<OscarL>
sounds like a win-win case for "hp -e" "breaking" recipes in that case.
<OscarL>
.patch not applying properly is a different problem.
<Begasus>
empty patches should be deleted
<Begasus>
err yes, *.patchset's
<OscarL>
my point is... you run "hp -e" on a recipe that has multiple source_uris...
<OscarL>
you end up with 0-lengh .pathset files.
<Begasus>
or even one, if no patching has been done :)
<MonniTheCat>
Like I said a while ago, HaikuPorter needs a lot of TLC, because the main code is already 10 years old...
<Begasus>
one of those 6.8.0 still has patches, some are upstreamed, so obsolete by now, but I still ended up running "hp -e" :P
<OscarL>
hp even complains if it finds .patchset files that are not referenced on the .recipe... thus, my suggestion that they should just be nuked.
<Begasus>
OscarL, could be that the patchset hasn't been included in the recipe also
<OscarL>
yea, that's my point... why give errors for 0-lenght files?
<Begasus>
those should be exluded
<Begasus>
haven't had that here so far, but I mostly nuke those patchsets up front
<yann64>
I got a weird libssl.1.1.so not found error
<Begasus>
missing libssl1 yann64
<yann64>
ok, so it is not only me :)
<Begasus>
it's been reported and will be fixed on the next version
<yann64>
thanks for the info
<MonniTheCat>
having both libssl 1.x and 3.x broke a lot of recipes...
<Begasus>
np, thanks for reporting!
<Begasus>
jump in the future MonniTheCat, it was bound to happen, and discussed a lot up front
<MonniTheCat>
Begasus: I switched over to 3.x a long time ago... the issue was with _man packages conflicting with each other...
<Begasus>
yeah read something about that
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<Begasus>
but so far the manpages I "checked" seem to be fine
<OscarL>
(bound to break some eggs when making omelettes)
<MonniTheCat>
I'm not sure if it's because some package depends on the _man package when it shouldn't, or that it just can't solve the conflict due to limitation in implementation...
<Begasus>
good thing we don't provide man packages then :D
<Begasus>
nice phrase OscarL :P
* OscarL
will probably try to nuck the SUGGESTS for openssl3_man. not really necessary, and makes you force-install the man page for no reason.
<OscarL>
s/nuck/nuke/
<MonniTheCat>
I try to avoid messing with recipes of essential packages... Pretty much asking for shitstorm for no or little gain...
<Begasus>
if it requires base package it should be good OscarL
<Begasus>
we do to MonniTheCat
<Begasus>
but sometimes it's needed, and if we can help out we're around
<OscarL>
that "suggests" issue is probably a bug on libsolv or elswhere on PackageKit. Always forget to file a ticket for it.
<Begasus>
I had been testing builds for openssl3 just as many others before it became official
<MonniTheCat>
Begasus: Gotta do that when k-o-r-l-i is not online for few days...
<Begasus>
Essential recipes I always keep open for a while, just because of that, those need reviewing
<MonniTheCat>
I have nothing against reviewing... Especially when it involves recipes that should work on both 32-bit and 64-bit Haiku... Just don't like all the people doing reviewing...
<Begasus>
you haven't been around when fbrosson was active :)
<OscarL>
Begasus: after seeing the state of the dash recipe.... I'm not scared of his reputation anymore! :-P
<Begasus>
I filed PR's that could tell stories from comments from fbrosson :D
<Begasus>
lol
<MonniTheCat>
Begasus: I've been lurking since 2002... I wasn't really active on every website OpenBeOS or Haiku has and most likely never will be...
<Begasus>
not on every website also here, but kept active ... heading to 25 years now ... and still can't code :P
* OscarL
feels seen :-)
<Begasus>
heh
<Begasus>
I think it's BeOS PE's 25th birthday next year?
<MonniTheCat>
Begasus: I've had beta 3, beta 4 and beta 5 after the rename from OpenBeOS to Haiku... I had to reason to upgrade before beta 3, because my hardware wasn't supported...
<OscarL>
crazy how time works.
<Begasus>
MonniTheCat, not the alpha4? :)
<MonniTheCat>
I used to have 32-bit non-hybrid OpenBeOS before Haiku beta 3... So beta 3 was first 64-bit installation...
<OscarL>
Weee! installed RobinHood with "pkgman -H", still can open documentation. Thanks a bunch, find_paths()!
<Begasus>
the 32bit non-hybrid has since died a silence death :)
<MonniTheCat>
Begasus: I had alpha1 ;)
<OscarL>
(still think it should allow excluding search of "non-packaged")
<MonniTheCat>
Begasus: I had to reason for BeOS compatibility as I still had BeOS 5.3 installed...
<Begasus>
got scared on the last comments for that on luajit OscarL :P
<Begasus>
so if anyone wants to tackle that, be my guest :P
<OscarL>
first time I use, so still need to learn, but surely beats using find_directory and assuming all pacakge are installed under /system
<MonniTheCat>
Begasus: I still have my old Pentium III machine, but the CD-RW drive on it failed, so I can't install USB drivers for mouse ;)
<Begasus>
still got the tower with iirc P4, probably holds some treasures in there :D
<Begasus>
but long time outdated now
<scantysnax>
probably have a few IDE HD with BeOS goodies on it.
<OscarL>
"Powered by BeOS" / "Optimized for NetPositive" gotta love those :-)
<Begasus>
hi scantysnax! indeed
<scantysnax>
hi.
<MonniTheCat>
It's pretty hard to find brand new IDE CD or DVD drives... Most are SATA by now...
<scantysnax>
yeah, I never throw out my disks
<Begasus>
got some backups on CD/DVD, but most don't read anymore
<OscarL>
scantysnax: hi! Heads up on nightlies... there seems to be a bug that affects GCC on newer nightlies.
<Begasus>
jikes!
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<MonniTheCat>
My dad used to get me new belts and regrease the motors, but he's too old for that kind of work now...
<scantysnax>
oh man, thankfullys i didn't switch to nightlies!
<Begasus>
heh, we all get to that point MonniTheCat :)
<OscarL>
so you might either want to remain on beta5, or use an hreve older than.... (let me search for it, can't remember right now)
<scantysnax>
i'll just stay on b5 for now guess, despite the FAT problems.
<jmairboeck>
OscarL: A nice trick to comment out blocks in shell scripts (and recipes) is to wrap in if false; then ... fi
<Begasus>
don't use FAT? :)
<OscarL>
scantysnax: older than hrev58388 should be safe.
<jmairboeck>
that should also work for defineDebugInfoPackage etc.
<Begasus>
does "if false" work in a recipe?
<scantysnax>
i can't not use fat since it's a disk i need to access from different OS
<Begasus>
ah, makes sense then scantysnax
<Begasus>
used to reserve one for that in the past also
<scantysnax>
even the 'dows.
<scantysnax>
have it on there just in case.
<OscarL>
jmairboeck: yeah, I even saw (and used, lol!) some weird thing with ' and : (can't remember details right now)... but still not ideal, as it doesn't gets "commented out" colors :-D
<MonniTheCat>
Begasus: My dad was born in 1953... So I guess it was expected that eventually he would stop working on electronics...
<Begasus>
only 10 years older ... but I never worked on electronics :D
<scantysnax>
i studied electronics
<scantysnax>
but i like programming too.
<MonniTheCat>
Begasus: One of my coworkers was born in the same year as my first cat, Monni ;)
<Begasus>
heh
<Begasus>
most of the co-workers at (old) job, were younger then our kids :)
<Begasus>
but we've all been there
<jmairboeck>
regarding debuginfo packages and cmake: I think if nothing weird is going on and a package uses normal cmake conventions, it should use either BUILD_TYPE=Release (or MinSizeRel) and no debuginfo package or RelWithDebInfo and defineDebugInfoPackage
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<MonniTheCat>
Begasus: Now when I see the employee records, a lot of people were born in early 2000s... So they are younger than my sister's oldest child...
<Begasus>
ok, not going back to RelWith... here, so nuking the debugInfo... will be it then
<Begasus>
but not today anymore :)
<jmairboeck>
if I understood the cmake configurations and their compiler flags correctly
<jmairboeck>
Begasus[m]: yeah, I think that is a good summary
<Begasus[m]>
so far MiniSizeRel hasn't been used a lot I think
<jmairboeck>
that is if you want to minimize the binary sizes, but may be less efficient than Release
<Begasus[m]>
a bit older then our oldest granddaughter Mika Lindqvist :D
<Begasus[m]>
right jmairboeck smaller in size, less in performance if I understand it right
<jmairboeck>
and Debug should not be used at all for official packages because it is unoptimized. The cmake function in HaikuPorter enforces specifying a build type, because Debug is the default usually with cmake.
<Begasus[m]>
I've seen at Arch that they use NONE quite a lot
<jmairboeck>
I don't know what that does
<MonniTheCat>
Begasus[m]: I guess people start calling me prehistoric relic when youngest employees start to be born in 2010s... lol... Not many years until that will happen...
<Begasus[m]>
me neither :D
<Begasus[m]>
lol Mika Lindqvist
<Begasus[m]>
a phrase I heard when I was young(er) :) "you know you're getting older when the music you like is announced as oldies on the radio" ... has been for a while here :P
<MonniTheCat>
Begasus[m]: Pretty much when they started calling Hanson and Britney Spears as oldies...
<Begasus[m]>
going a bit further back here :)
<MonniTheCat>
Begasus[m]: I used to watch VH1 Classics when it did still exist... It was good sign what is considered oldies and what isn't... They didn't play "new" songs at all...
<Begasus[m]>
it was all better in the old days!! :P (me grins)
<MonniTheCat>
Begasus: I still get smiles when I say that bands like ABBA were spinoff of other bands... Some people are too young to know history of that era...
<OscarL>
"Oh that's a classic"... was Nirvana... FML!
<Begasus[m]>
lol
<Begasus[m]>
CCR etc now those are classics! :D
<MonniTheCat>
Or if I ask what band was before Beatles...
<OscarL>
I remember buying a Credence cassette for my father.
<Begasus[m]>
most have loved it OscarL, still got a dual album here from them
<MonniTheCat>
CCR all the way...
<OscarL>
he was pretty pleased with the gift, yeah :-)
<Begasus[m]>
had some talks the other day, refering to Nena and Nina ... :D
<OscarL>
Dunno why, but certain languages sound kinda offputting when used to sing. Must be just because I'm only used to hearing singers use either English or Spanish.
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<OscarL>
funny thing to say, from a guy that listen to Cradle of Filth or Cargass, and thinks... that's beautiful! :-P
<OscarL>
*Carcass, darn typos.
<MonniTheCat>
Listening to Spanish "originals" of some well known songs just hit differently...
<Begasus>
back in the days of the male choir we had a lot of Italian songs
<MonniTheCat>
In Finland, there was a lot of songs that were covers of Italian songs... A lot of Finnish people still eat Italian style food...
<MonniTheCat>
from artists like Riccardo Del Turco and Ricchi e Poveri...
<OscarL>
now I want a pizza.
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<MonniTheCat>
I have pizza restaurant down the street where I live... So I can eat pizza every day...
<phschafft>
do you need some place to make pizza?
<OscarL>
Nice! Hoping the make them good :-D (I only make my own, for cost-saving reasons, even then, cheese got too expensive)
<OscarL>
so been making "Figazzas" instead lately.
<MonniTheCat>
Cheese is quite expensive here too... about 7 EUR/kg...
<OscarL>
phschafft: At least in Argentina... the pizza they make in certain places it is just on a whole different level of taste.
<Begasus[m]>
food almost ready here, Belgian fries :P
<OscarL>
that you can't easily replicate at home.
<MonniTheCat>
I stick to listening to Belgian music... I like my fries French ;)
<scantysnax>
a belgian eating belgian fries. what a surprise!
<Begasus[m]>
they are ours! :P
<Begasus[m]>
we had pizza earlier this week :)
<OscarL>
MonniTheCat: 7 €/Kg... sounds about in line with prices here (for the cheapest "fresh" cheese). Too bad median income here is a fraction than on EU :-D
<OscarL>
time to invest on some cows.
<Begasus[m]>
well ... time to dig in here, bbl
<OscarL>
later Begasus[m]!
<MonniTheCat>
OscarL: I got my share of prices when I worked in Chubut...
<OscarL>
never a dull moment if related to Argentine's economy :-D
<MonniTheCat>
OscarL: People looked at me funny when they tried to speak Spanish behind my back and I replied to them in Spanish... They thought foreigners don't understand Spanish...
<OscarL>
there are silly and ignorant people everywhere, I'm affraid. :-(
<MonniTheCat>
OscarL: Working in Argentina was a lot more enjoyable than working in Italy...
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<OscarL>
Glad it wasn't all that bad, then :-)
<scantysnax>
i like when people talk about me in a foreign language, assuming i don't know it.
<MonniTheCat>
When I was a lot younger, I did teach internationalization in Australia National University (ANU)... Best days I did use 13 different languages, so I did learn a lot of words...
<scantysnax>
wow.
<bjorkintosh>
you taught internalization to ANUS??
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<bjorkintosh>
ANU students, I meant :-D
<bjorkintosh>
why oh why did they not fore-see immature bastards like me?
<MonniTheCat>
I did add a lot of entries to Wiktionary when I had a lot of spare time... Mostly loan words and less known dialects like deep Tagalog and French loan words in Vietnamese...
<bjorkintosh>
tagalog influenced vietnamese??
<bjorkintosh>
wow.
<phschafft>
OscarL: hm.
<MonniTheCat>
A lot of Asian languages share similar words... Vietnamese just write them with own twist...
<bjorkintosh>
ah. just like the great 'murrican book of typos called the Merriam-Webster Dictionary.
<MonniTheCat>
When I talk deep Tagalog in Philippines, mostly only very old people understand me... younger generation haven't even heard of deep Tagalog...
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<bjorkintosh>
MonniTheCat: of course not.
<bjorkintosh>
think about it for a second. how old is Tagalog?
<bjorkintosh>
it's derived from Old Malay, correct? the language is a living artefact, therefore as time goes on changes lead to a divergence in form and vocabulary.
<gordonjcp>
MonniTheCat: where I live in Scotland there's a dialect of Scots that's pretty much a language in its own right - it is, really - called Doric
<MonniTheCat>
bjorkintosh: I would assume 10th century...
<bjorkintosh>
old malay is from what, 2000 BCE?
<gordonjcp>
MonniTheCat: it's mostly older people who speak Doric, and it's quite hard to understand even if you're from the area
<bjorkintosh>
the people who speak malay would not recognize much of anything of modern tagalog at all.
<bjorkintosh>
even though they have the same roots.
<gordonjcp>
bjorkintosh: like various forms of Gaelic
<bjorkintosh>
right. language changes a lot and sometimes really quickly.
<gordonjcp>
bjorkintosh: I can understand people from a few towns over, pretty much, I can understand Irish people more or less
<bjorkintosh>
I still don't know what the fuck 'skibidy' means.
<gordonjcp>
I cannot understand Manx
<gordonjcp>
I can pick out odd words
<MonniTheCat>
bjorkintosh: I speak Bahasa Melayu... I recognized some similarities, but can't understand all Tagalog words...
<bjorkintosh>
and it surely must have emerged in the last year.
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<gordonjcp>
Scots and Irish Gaelic are a bit like Russian and Ukrainian, if you know one you can probably get by in the other but they're not the same
<MonniTheCat>
I can use Bahasa Melayu in Indonesia, even though the "dialects" have some words different...
<bjorkintosh>
MonniTheCat: you can use it in some parts of Singapore and Thailand too, no?
<gordonjcp>
you know what I've learned about foreign languages though?
<MonniTheCat>
bjorkintosh: Even Singaporean Chinese understand Bahasa Melayu...
<gordonjcp>
if you can say "please" and "thank you", and a few other things it's a big help
<gordonjcp>
but
<gordonjcp>
if you can learn "I'm not English I'm Scottish" then suddenly everyone can understand you just fine, in any language
<bjorkintosh>
gordonjcp: also "hello"
<bjorkintosh>
the rest is all sign language.
<MonniTheCat>
I had to learn Bahasa Melayu when I worked with Malaysian media company... Their English is just unintelligible, worse than most non-native English speakers around Internet...
<bjorkintosh>
MonniTheCat: you just gotta listen carefully.
<bjorkintosh>
really carefully. and then you'll pick up their intonation.
<MonniTheCat>
I was surprised how little English people understand in South-East London...
<OscarL>
the sequence of slightly more understandable "translations" at the start of that clip always gets me :-)
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<bjorkintosh>
it's funny as hell.
<bjorkintosh>
I think my hearing is going. I can hear people just fine but for instance... 'putting sour cream in my new sneakers' and hearing the actual sentence was a revelation.
<MonniTheCat>
I'm almost blind and almost deaf in right year... I'm still scared when hearing goes from my left ear too...
<bjorkintosh>
MonniTheCat: no medical intervention possible?
<MonniTheCat>
bjorkintosh: no good ear doctors here in Finland... Most Finnish doctors specialize in sports injuries...
<bjorkintosh>
oh. you gotta travel.
<Begasus[m]>
my wife tells me I have selective hearing ... been that way for a long time ...
<MonniTheCat>
I have so high pressue in inner ear that I can't even count how many times I have had ear drums explode...
<MonniTheCat>
s/pressue/pressure/
<OscarL>
Begasus[m]: :-D
<bjorkintosh>
what was that, Begasus[m]?
<Begasus>
selective hearing*
<bjorkintosh>
huh?
* bjorkintosh
can't hear Begasus.
<OscarL>
seen selective hearing in a lot of long-maried couples.
<Begasus>
lol
<MonniTheCat>
Begasus[m]: Maybe that's why I change my girlfriend at the same time I buy new socks... Never been married, engaged twice...
<OscarL>
heh... even on shorter ones too :-P
<bjorkintosh>
OscarL: it's a necessity in relationships because sometimes the person is just venting to vent.
<OscarL>
bjorkintosh: exactly!
<Begasus>
spot on bjorkintosh
<OscarL>
some do not see it that way though :-(
<bjorkintosh>
right. if you pay too close attention, it's not good.
<bjorkintosh>
there was a whole black mirror episode on this.
<Begasus>
bugs me when I'm busy with the recipes :P
<Begasus>
and I don't do that when she is busy with her recipes :P
<MonniTheCat>
Whenever I go to grocery store and forget what I was going to eat, I can expect the little voice shout what's for dinner...
<Begasus>
heh
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<MonniTheCat>
I can never say I'm going to buy potatoes, because first thing I hear is that she's not going to buy them... Then if I say that I'm going to eat potatoes, she feels betrayed...
<Begasus[m]>
k, done testing for today, if I don't hear otherwise I'll comment the debug packages out of the recipes tomorrow OscarL and jmairboeck :)
<Begasus[m]>
cu peeps!
<AlienSoldier>
MonniTheCat they work on another set of logic.
<MonniTheCat>
AlienSoldier: I know... I've gone shopping with a few women who like eating salad, but never like buying the ingredients... Then if I decide to buy, it's seventh heaven for them...
<AlienSoldier>
it is like the scaling between macro and quantic state. Both logic are right and exist but we can't yet undestand the other side.
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<MonniTheCat>
no chance, maybe, yes, definitely... it's never simple binary yes/no ;)
<MonniTheCat>
Reading those kind of stories just makes me smile...
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<MonniTheCat>
At my first real job I had to diagnose network failures... They couldn't figure out why their whole network went down when one employee turned the PC on...
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<adrian_>
god the number of times we had a win98/win2k laptop join wifi with internet sharing enabled
<adrian_>
and they'd be like "it's me, hi, i'm the DHCP server / NAT gateway, it's me"