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<KadenFrisk[m]>
interesting project...
<KadenFrisk[m]>
23 years in development and only in beta somehow
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<KadenFrisk[m]>
hello OrangeBomb
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<bjorkintosh>
KadenFrisk[m]: the words you're looking for are "thank you, you guys have done a fantastic job"
<bjorkintosh>
it's completely run by volunteers.
<phschafft>
A beta at that is at a stage the big three operating system vendors would have released as a stable version.
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<KadenFrisk[m]>
volunteers != good
<KadenFrisk[m]>
that just means its updated
<KadenFrisk[m]>
phschafft: yeah because it's common sense to not just develop it for 23 years without a stable realease, no one originally interested other than the people helping are going to stay that long
<waddlesplash>
KadenFrisk[m]: you talk as if it's been the same people all 23 years
<waddlesplash>
it hasn't, new people come and old people fade out
<waddlesplash>
I have only been here since 2012 myself
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<KadenFrisk[m]>
That's literally what I just said
<phschafft>
KadenFrisk[m]: so?
<KadenFrisk[m]>
People are coming and going
<waddlesplash>
that's what happens with all projects
<waddlesplash>
back in the early 00s there were tons of alt-OS experiments
<waddlesplash>
now there's basically nothing
<KadenFrisk[m]>
Wdym so?? Bro what 😭
<KadenFrisk[m]>
waddlesplash: not the same if you actually release something. Imagine if nvidia spent 23 years developing its drivers, would they be in business? no
<waddlesplash>
Serenity, ToAruOS, etc.
<phschafft>
KadenFrisk[m]: I'm asking for your point.
<waddlesplash>
KadenFrisk[m]: we aren't a business, we are a bunch of hobbyists who sometimes get donations.
<waddlesplash>
if you give us NVIDIA money I am sure we will come up with some great products :P
<KadenFrisk[m]>
phschafft: atp I'm questioning if you have had a conversation in the last few months
<KadenFrisk[m]>
waddlesplash: ye probably
<phschafft>
KadenFrisk[m]: what?
<KadenFrisk[m]>
I just don't get how there isn't a release after 23 years
<waddlesplash>
KadenFrisk[m]: phschafft definitely has talked to people in the last few months. be more polite, thanks
<KadenFrisk[m]>
You'd likely get more donations if there was an actual release
<waddlesplash>
what are you saying?
<waddlesplash>
we should pick a random build and put the label "Release" on it and call it a day?
<waddlesplash>
no, that would be silly
<KadenFrisk[m]>
actually release something = more activity = more people donating
<waddlesplash>
the release will happen when Haiku is, in fact, stable
<waddlesplash>
we do release something
<waddlesplash>
the beta release is still a release
<KadenFrisk[m]>
waddlesplash: have an actual goal (I'm sure you do but) meet that for the release
<KadenFrisk[m]>
waddlesplash: how is it beta after this long 😭
<waddlesplash>
what do you think we have been doing the past 23 years? playing tiddlywinks?
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<KadenFrisk[m]>
Apparently
<waddlesplash>
well, then you don't know anything about we have been doing apparently
<KadenFrisk[m]>
The website looks it hasn't been developed since it existed
<KadenFrisk[m]>
nostalgic but hard as hell for most people to even navigate now days
* phschafft
has a really hard time figuring out of KadenFrisk[m] actually tries to make a point (looking forward to it) or is just trolling.
<waddlesplash>
are you volunteering to redo it?
<KadenFrisk[m]>
waddlesplash: Ngl
<waddlesplash>
it's open source too, the whole website is a git repository
<KadenFrisk[m]>
I make all kinds of websites I could redo it
<waddlesplash>
fork it, do some experiements, submit a PR
<waddlesplash>
but anyway, we are literally building a whole OS from the ground up. Linux only manages this because they have massive corporate sponsorship
<KadenFrisk[m]>
is there a roadmap for this somewhere
<waddlesplash>
meanwhile we have a tiny fraction of the person-power they do, and we actually manage to build something which punches far above its weight class, really
<KadenFrisk[m]>
waddlesplash: it didn't always have that, linus literally said it was a side project. And linux is still a kernel, I see this project also uses a kernel that was being made, newos kernel from what I read?
<KadenFrisk[m]>
waddlesplash: LINUS MADE IT ON HIS OWN AT FIRST
<KadenFrisk[m]>
😭
<waddlesplash>
if we had even 1/1000th the resources that are poured into the Linux Desktop we would be much ahead
<KadenFrisk[m]>
how many people are contributing to the development
<waddlesplash>
KadenFrisk[m]: he made it on his own for what, a few months? then released it and there were contributors immediately
<waddlesplash>
KadenFrisk[m]: and the NewOS kernel was the initial basis. it was forked at the beginning basically and is its own thing now
<KadenFrisk[m]>
waddlesplash: is haiku not open source yet... I saw the git commits
<KadenFrisk[m]>
I thought it was
<waddlesplash>
I am not sure what you are talking about
<waddlesplash>
all the source code is open
<KadenFrisk[m]>
ye so what are you calling "releasing" for linux?
<waddlesplash>
you are saying "Linus made it on his own at first" which is true, but nobody runs that version except for a fun experiment
<KadenFrisk[m]>
KadenFrisk[m]: ?
<waddlesplash>
any version of Linux anybody actually uses, going back to versions from the 1990s, had lots of other contributors
<waddlesplash>
also ... 1990s hardware is simpler than 2020s hardware
<KadenFrisk[m]>
it works on hardware today so that doesn't really make much sense to say
<waddlesplash>
a single Linux GPU driver alone is larger than the entire first release of the Linux kernel by multiple *orders of magnitude*
<waddlesplash>
Linux from 1990-whatever? no it doesn't
<KadenFrisk[m]>
waddlesplash: lol
<waddlesplash>
go try to run Linux 0.93 or whatever the first release was on a modern x86_64 PC
<waddlesplash>
it won't boot, it won't even start booting
<KadenFrisk[m]>
waddlesplash: if i wanted to use haiku would I install beos from 2001?.. this doesn't make much sense
<KadenFrisk[m]>
waddlesplash: im sure its very barebones
<waddlesplash>
the point is that the Linux of today has millions of dollars and tens of thousands of hours of work poured into it from corporations with time and money to burn
<waddlesplash>
we are not that
<waddlesplash>
hence, things progress slowly
<waddlesplash>
work on open-source takes time. we do this because we want to, it's a hobby
<waddlesplash>
some of us occasionally get paid when the Inc. has money, but that's not often, and it's not a competitive wage to be sure
<KadenFrisk[m]>
that would make sense if it just came out but it's been over 2 decades
<KadenFrisk[m]>
I can't phantom how that even would happen
<waddlesplash>
how many people work on Linux and the Linux desktop every month?
<waddlesplash>
say it's 1,000 (this is really far too low actually)
<KadenFrisk[m]>
People make game engines and kernels and all sorts of stuff in a matter of months on their own
<waddlesplash>
KadenFrisk[m]: did you ever use any of those?
<waddlesplash>
like, for doing actual work?
<waddlesplash>
a random "hobby kernel" can be done in a university course, yes
<KadenFrisk[m]>
i've played with them but I'm also the person to write my own 😂
<bjorkintosh>
KadenFrisk[m]: how are you willing to contribute. remember, anyone can make negative statements.
<bjorkintosh>
how are you willing to make a positive contribution?
<bjorkintosh>
with money, or with your time?
<bjorkintosh>
or both?
<KadenFrisk[m]>
for this project?
<waddlesplash>
but a kernel written in 6 months of time is not going to be capable of doing much of anything
<bjorkintosh>
KadenFrisk[m]: sure. how are you willing to make a positive contribution besides nag the volunteers?
<bjorkintosh>
no one is interested in that.
<waddlesplash>
KadenFrisk[m]: so, say Linux has 1,000 person-months worth of work done, per month (1 person working for a month = 1 person-month.)
<KadenFrisk[m]>
meanwhile terry davis and linus 🔥
* phschafft
makes some relaxing tea for waddlesplash. maybe some popcorn for the bystanders.
<KadenFrisk[m]>
bjorkintosh: im not trying to nag anyone
<waddlesplash>
and Haiku has 1-2 person months of work done per month
<waddlesplash>
so Linux will get features done 1,000x faster than Haiku
<bjorkintosh>
KadenFrisk[m]: you don't have to try. you are doing exactly that.
<waddlesplash>
see how that works?
<KadenFrisk[m]>
I'm pretty ass at not sounding like a know it all when I'm trying to find an issue to help with
<bjorkintosh>
KadenFrisk[m]: then ask how you can help
<waddlesplash>
(of course this is a radical oversimplification but it gets the idea across)
<bjorkintosh>
you haven't done that yet.
<KadenFrisk[m]>
that's what I'm trying to ask when I say how is like this after 20 years
<KadenFrisk[m]>
and I asked about a roadmap
<waddlesplash>
because we have 1-2 person-months of effort done per month
<waddlesplash>
and Linux has 1,000+
<waddlesplash>
there's your answer
<KadenFrisk[m]>
do you seriously want the website redones
<KadenFrisk[m]>
s/redones/redone/
<bjorkintosh>
that's not how to ask. ask what you need to do personally, to move the project forward.
<waddlesplash>
anyone taking that on will have to be patient
<waddlesplash>
we'll need to migrate the content over to anything new of course
<waddlesplash>
but it isn't a job to be done in haste
<waddlesplash>
that's all it does, it just serves the content
<KadenFrisk[m]>
im a cloudflare/vercel lover
<KadenFrisk[m]>
:fire
<KadenFrisk[m]>
* :fire:
<KadenFrisk[m]>
Nice emoji
<KadenFrisk[m]>
🔥
<waddlesplash>
sorry, but are you a teenager?
<KadenFrisk[m]>
im 18
<waddlesplash>
...
<bjorkintosh>
KadenFrisk[m]: the frustrating thing is, when a whole bunch of people have sweated bullets for 2 decades and someone out of the blue jumps in and says "why's this taking so fucking long", we know the person is a fucking troll.
<KadenFrisk[m]>
do not connect that to development skills/experience, you won't even want to try
<bjorkintosh>
not someone asking to make a meaningful contribution.
<waddlesplash>
bjorkintosh: your point is valid but please keep the language PG13 :p
<bjorkintosh>
sure
<KadenFrisk[m]>
bjorkintosh: Not really, if you were to say actual issues instead of complaining about the question, then said person would look into them
<KadenFrisk[m]>
It looks
<KadenFrisk[m]>
Idk frozen?
<waddlesplash>
KadenFrisk[m]: I found out about Haiku when I was 13 and was writing kernel code before I turned 18. What's your point?
<KadenFrisk[m]>
What needs development
<bjorkintosh>
KadenFrisk[m]: you have an awful communication problem, learn to do better.
<KadenFrisk[m]>
waddlesplash: nice
<KadenFrisk[m]>
then you understand you don't have to go through 4 years of computer science courses in college just to know how to code
<waddlesplash>
KadenFrisk[m]: I don't know anything about your coding skills, I only know about your communication skills, which aren't great
<KadenFrisk[m]>
Everyone assumes you just can't know anything
<KadenFrisk[m]>
waddlesplash: i know
<waddlesplash>
so far all you've done is blown smoke and shade
<waddlesplash>
KadenFrisk[m]: nobody assumed that for me. because "on the internet, nobody knows you're a dog"
<waddlesplash>
but if you go around being insulting they will do that
<bjorkintosh>
these days, no one knows you're a bot.
<waddlesplash>
because it sure looks like, in fact, you can't do anything besides talk
<bjorkintosh>
thank you LLMs
<KadenFrisk[m]>
what is this theming 🔥
<waddlesplash>
eh. LLM text is pretty detectable most of the time
<waddlesplash>
KadenFrisk[m]: the website is actually bootstrap under the hood
<KadenFrisk[m]>
whole OS looks like windows me
<waddlesplash>
it just has an extra coat of paint on top
<waddlesplash>
KadenFrisk[m]: yeah, and we like it that way. it looks timeless. but if you really want there's a Flat theme you can enable instead.
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<KadenFrisk[m]>
waddlesplash: a lot of people associate "timeless" with being that old though
<KadenFrisk[m]>
whats the flat theme look like
<phschafft>
I would say that the graphical design is clearly a matter of taste.
<waddlesplash>
KadenFrisk[m]: oh? so you're annoyed at people assuming you don't know anything because you're young, so instead you're going to assume that something isn't useful or a waste of time or whatever because it's old?
<waddlesplash>
seems like you're doing the same thing but in reverse
<KadenFrisk[m]>
project != skills or a person
<phschafft>
as I have told before, the logo was actually what got me interested some years ago, and now got me back here again.
<bjorkintosh>
BeOS/Haiku is beautiful.
<KadenFrisk[m]>
if you spend 23 years building something it should be further if people can throw out things in 10 years that people love
<waddlesplash>
KadenFrisk[m]: right. projects are made by people with skills, the fruits of their labors. so the project should be superior to any one person's skills or labors because it has their combined efforts
<phschafft>
and I must also say that the way the GUI works is different from most actively developed DE/GUIs.
<waddlesplash>
KadenFrisk[m]: yeah, and I already explained above why the long time. did you read that?
<phschafft>
one might like it or not. but it's surely in no way more a copy of something else as everything is a remix of everything.
<KadenFrisk[m]>
waddlesplash: 1 to 2 people a month?
<waddlesplash>
no, dozens or more of people
<waddlesplash>
but each only spends a few hours a month
<waddlesplash>
not 40 hours a week x 4 weeks a month
<bjorkintosh>
folks. KadenFrisk[m] is a troll. the more its fed, the more energy it has.
<KadenFrisk[m]>
That's probably the issue then
<KadenFrisk[m]>
I spend multiple hours a day coding things
<KadenFrisk[m]>
And thats outside of code I'm doing for actual work
<waddlesplash>
bjorkintosh: nah, I think he's just young and foolish fellow who hasn't been to the "school of hard knocks" yet
<bjorkintosh>
ah yes.
<KadenFrisk[m]>
sigh
<KadenFrisk[m]>
YoUrE NoT ReAdY FoR ThE rEAl wOrLd
<waddlesplash>
KadenFrisk[m]: sorry, but it's true. speaking as a former teenager who was writing tons of code in those years. and some of it for Haiku
<waddlesplash>
KadenFrisk[m]: not what I said
<KadenFrisk[m]>
is that the same thing you're asying
<waddlesplash>
nope
<KadenFrisk[m]>
s/asying/saying/
<waddlesplash>
not at all
<KadenFrisk[m]>
better not be
<KadenFrisk[m]>
ion believe in that
<KadenFrisk[m]>
what're you saying is a school of hard knocks then 😂
<waddlesplash>
you become ready for the real world by ... being in the real world
<waddlesplash>
ideally your parents introduce you to it a little at a time as you grow up
<waddlesplash>
but sometimes they don't and you get thrown in the "deep end" at some point, and that's life
<KadenFrisk[m]>
uh
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<KadenFrisk[m]>
mkay no comment
<waddlesplash>
mhmm.
<KadenFrisk[m]>
already said i dont really believe in that
<waddlesplash>
believe in what?
<waddlesplash>
nobody is "gatekeeping" you here but yourself and your own foolish decisions
<KadenFrisk[m]>
you don't have to go into said world believing everything is out to get you and hide in a bunker
<waddlesplash>
did I say that?
<waddlesplash>
no
<KadenFrisk[m]>
you're claiming theres a real world separate from whatever I'm in
<KadenFrisk[m]>
what would the difference be
<waddlesplash>
the internet is in fact not real lfie
<waddlesplash>
as fun as it is
<KadenFrisk[m]>
Jeez
<KadenFrisk[m]>
Talk about assuming 🔥
<waddlesplash>
it's easy enough to throw insults online
<waddlesplash>
if you do it to someone's face in real life, that's much more serious
<phschafft>
I think waddlesplash actually said the opposite: go out into the real world and make friends with whatever feels like it troes to get you.
<waddlesplash>
^
<KadenFrisk[m]>
I can turn off my internet entirely and be fine
<KadenFrisk[m]>
waddlesplash: I don't have that issue
<KadenFrisk[m]>
In person I can talk normal
<KadenFrisk[m]>
I suck at messages I said that 💀
<waddlesplash>
well then, why not do the same online?
<phschafft>
then please do here as well.
<KadenFrisk[m]>
Not really the same thing
<waddlesplash>
okay but "sucking" is a choice
<waddlesplash>
you can choose to do something different
<KadenFrisk[m]>
Bro what 😭
<waddlesplash>
nobody is stopping you
<waddlesplash>
I said what I said
<KadenFrisk[m]>
What do you want me to do
<KadenFrisk[m]>
Dear esteemed fellow, how may'st I develop this project
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<KadenFrisk[m]>
I don't understand 😭
<waddlesplash>
KadenFrisk[m]: Why thank you for asking politely, my good sir. We are in need of all manner of assistance. What skills dost thou offer to lend to our aid in our endeavours?
<KadenFrisk[m]>
😭
<KadenFrisk[m]>
screw it im going along with this
<waddlesplash>
:)
* phschafft
tries to remember when he was 18. it(?:'s| seems) not long ago.
<KadenFrisk[m]>
Can I send a wall of text that I have with a list of skills already made
<waddlesplash>
please don't. what's wrong with just a sentence or two?
<waddlesplash>
mention the things you like doing, or skills you're trying to learn
<waddlesplash>
things like that
<waddlesplash>
then we'll talk about that, and maybe some of the other details you have written up will become relevant and deserve a mention
<waddlesplash>
this is a conversation, not a reading of a CV or resume
<waddlesplash>
it's a dance
<waddlesplash>
if you want to be poetic about it, that is
<KadenFrisk[m]>
I enjoy working on practical, impactful projects that solve real-world problems or make a difference for others. I have a passion for low-level programming, system optimization, and repurposing older technology to meet modern needs. I like creating tools, applications, and software that enhance efficiency and usability. I do web development, machine learning, and tinkering with operating systems, I focus on building things that are
<KadenFrisk[m]>
meaningful and useful. I really prefer anything over web development, but I'm great at it and a lot of the time it's what pays the most (Most often, not at once) Heres my website if you want it https://kadenfrisk.com
<KadenFrisk[m]>
waddlesplash: im literally shakespeare
<KadenFrisk[m]>
(i wish)
<waddlesplash>
lol
<waddlesplash>
(it is possible to learn to compose Shakespearian English, it's just a lot of time and effort)
<KadenFrisk[m]>
romeo and juliet is fire
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<KadenFrisk[m]>
<phschafft> "tries to remember when he was 18..." <- what is up with these? asterisk followed by essentially 3rd person text? 😭
<waddlesplash>
KadenFrisk[m]: it's an old IRC social convention!
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<waddlesplash>
it actually still exists even on Discord
<KadenFrisk[m]>
looks like rp
<waddlesplash>
but it's not really formatted well and rarely ever used
<KadenFrisk[m]>
Rp on discord is scary
<waddlesplash>
the command is /me
<waddlesplash>
nah, it's just a way to be a little funny
<waddlesplash>
certain statements about one's past, for instance, are often worded that way
* KadenFrisk[m]
sips dr pepper intuitively
<KadenFrisk[m]>
lmao
<waddlesplash>
exactly, you get it
<waddlesplash>
lol
<phschafft>
I mean when I'm meeting in person I can say something or I can do something. so it's logical to apply the same concepts to the virtual world.
<KadenFrisk[m]>
You can imagine my brain seeing this "timeless theme" being the type of person to use arch with fancy window manager
<waddlesplash>
and what's the old meme line about Romeo & Juliet? "boy and girl fall in love. 6 dead, scores injured"
<waddlesplash>
KadenFrisk[m]: anyway, that's a pretty good personal statement, and relatively succinct all things considered.
* coolcoder613
walks in and looks around nervously
<waddlesplash>
it's already taken 23 years to build Haiku, if we write our own programming language then we'd REALLY never be finished :-P
<KadenFrisk[m]>
port ada to haiku 🔥
<waddlesplash>
might already work?
* phschafft
gets coolcoder613 a cookie.
<waddlesplash>
GNU compilers contain an Ada compiler I think
<waddlesplash>
so we get that along with all the older languages GCC provides support for
<phschafft>
I'm very sure you can have ada.
<waddlesplash>
anyway there are people in here who have ThinkPads from 2009 or earlier on here
<waddlesplash>
and yes, Haiku runs on them
<KadenFrisk[m]>
waddlesplash: Lowkey I've been wanting to, the one thing I don't really know how to make is parsers/tokenizers to run a language. that'll probably be my next project
<KadenFrisk[m]>
I'm sure it does
<rnelson>
Ooh, I didn't know net8.0-haiku was being worked on. Yay!
<waddlesplash>
in fact someone on the forums was talking about looking into getting Haiku running on a 486...
<KadenFrisk[m]>
Windows and mac os are the main 2 that I know have that just take up so much resources
<waddlesplash>
rnelson: "some assembly required" but it does work now
<KadenFrisk[m]>
waddlesplash: gnat?
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<waddlesplash>
rnelson: check the forums, I think Nexus6H had the .NET API bindings working at least partially, and code completion in Genio
* coolcoder613
sits down and gets some popcorn to go with the cookie
<KadenFrisk[m]>
the ada build system is what I have issues getting to work usually, idk if thats all gpr build was made for but I couldn't get it to install without having gpr build already
<phschafft>
coolcoder613: wise choice.
<waddlesplash>
KadenFrisk[m]: gnat?
<waddlesplash>
not sure what that is
<waddlesplash>
if it's an Ada thing, I don't know much about Ada
<KadenFrisk[m]>
waddlesplash: compiler ada release
<KadenFrisk[m]>
s/release/released/
<waddlesplash>
ah
<KadenFrisk[m]>
i think it's in gcc not too sure
<waddlesplash>
yeah, like I said, don't know about Ada much
<KadenFrisk[m]>
I don't actually use ada a ton, I know it but usually don't have a reason to
<KadenFrisk[m]>
DOD would hire me 🔥
<KadenFrisk[m]>
(not)
<waddlesplash>
lol
<waddlesplash>
looking at the GCC package recipe, I don't see mentions of GNAT or ADA
<waddlesplash>
but GCC only builds C/C++ by default and you have to turn on the rest
<waddlesplash>
and nobody's bothered to yet it seems
<KadenFrisk[m]>
how hard would it be to have a tiling window manager on haiku
<waddlesplash>
so, you could try doing that and see what happens :)
<x512[m]>
What is the point in coming to community to say "why no release in 23 years"? What are you expecting? That development will suddenly speed up after your words? That you can do it better? Or that Haiku is meaningless and should be abandoned?
<KadenFrisk[m]>
my favorite
<KadenFrisk[m]>
x512[m]: yep
<waddlesplash>
KadenFrisk[m]: probably not too hard, if implemented as a "hack"
<KadenFrisk[m]>
pretty much ass at asking how I can speed something up
<coolcoder613>
IMO the betas are the equivalent of releases
<KadenFrisk[m]>
waddlesplash: port hyprland to haiku?
<waddlesplash>
a bit more work to integrate it with the window manager properly
<KadenFrisk[m]>
🔥
<waddlesplash>
KadenFrisk[m]: Haiku doesn't run on Wayland
<waddlesplash>
or X11
<waddlesplash>
it's its own thing
<KadenFrisk[m]>
yeah i meant like
<KadenFrisk[m]>
remake it for it
<KadenFrisk[m]>
Same style and everything
<waddlesplash>
you can write custom window decorator plugins for the window server
<waddlesplash>
that already works
<KadenFrisk[m]>
I need my haiku rice with btop and cmatrix showing on the screen 🔥
<waddlesplash>
you can also use the scripting API to move windows around
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<waddlesplash>
and just implement tiling that way
<waddlesplash>
but there's also "Stack and Tile" which is "tiling lite"
* coolcoder613
would love to have somone to write Haiku-PyAPI documentation
<KadenFrisk[m]>
i do docs a lot lol
<KadenFrisk[m]>
i always use docusaurus
<KadenFrisk[m]>
A lot of groups will be like hey heres a 2k+ line code file that uses a programming language you don't even like, good luck, please document it
<waddlesplash>
on Haiku we try to have code that's understandable even without dedicated documentation
<waddlesplash>
Haiku's source code is some of the only code that I find genuinely pleasant to read, in general, even when I'm not hunting for a bug
<KadenFrisk[m]>
RIT iso mirror down?..
<waddlesplash>
though admittedly I have been interacting with Haiku on one level or another for over half my time as a programmer, and it's been massively formative on my coding, so...
<KadenFrisk[m]>
waddlesplash: nice
<waddlesplash>
KadenFrisk[m]: RIT mirror works here?
<waddlesplash>
or we just didn't update the URL if they do have it
<waddlesplash>
download the file manually and verify the checksum
<waddlesplash>
the checksum's served over HTTPS, so it's fine
<x512[m]>
Modern browsers may block HTTP resources on HTTPS page.
<KadenFrisk[m]>
i just used the one below it from oregon
<waddlesplash>
that also works
<KadenFrisk[m]>
x512[m]: well ye they probably should
* coolcoder613
wrote his first kernel code... Well, technically at 12, but properly at 14
<KadenFrisk[m]>
is anyone daily driving haiku
<coolcoder613>
Yeah
<coolcoder613>
A few people i think
<waddlesplash>
there are a few, yes
<phschafft>
coolcoder613: I recently found that the Haiku specific support for non-POSIX like operations in Perl is ... limited.
<waddlesplash>
phschafft: like what?
<waddlesplash>
KadenFrisk[m]: I expect the number of daily drivers will go up considerably after we get the Firefox port finally working
<phschafft>
waddlesplash: filesystem and IO related calls are of most interest to me.
<waddlesplash>
which should hopefully be within the next month, we're getting close
<waddlesplash>
phschafft: yes, like what?
<x512[m]>
mirror.rit.edu seems not support HTTPS.
<phschafft>
waddlesplash: e.g. accessing file attributes outside stat(). that is also where my discussions in here regarding my findings with stat() originate from.
<waddlesplash>
you mean extended attributes?
<KadenFrisk[m]>
does it support efi
<waddlesplash>
yes
* phschafft
nods.
<waddlesplash>
both my machines here boot Haiku via EFI
<waddlesplash>
phschafft: yeah, most things have limited support for xattrs
<phschafft>
dislike calling them 'extended' ;)
<KadenFrisk[m]>
should I turn on efi for oracle vb then
<waddlesplash>
in all fairness basically nobody has typed xattrs excelt Haiku
<waddlesplash>
KadenFrisk[m]: nah
<waddlesplash>
also VirtualBox is really not great VM software
<waddlesplash>
the performance is ... meh
<waddlesplash>
if you're on Linux, KVM is much better
<coolcoder613>
For Haiku at least
<waddlesplash>
(virt-manager is the GUI)
<coolcoder613>
I recommend VMWare
<waddlesplash>
coolcoder613: not just for Haiku. though admittedly other OSes are less affected it seems, yes
<phschafft>
waddlesplash: SIRTX has type-ed and encoding-ed attributes ;)
<waddlesplash>
VMware is also good but costs money
<waddlesplash>
or did they finally release Workstation for free? I haven't been following the new too closely
<coolcoder613>
waddlesplash: no
<coolcoder613>
waddlesplash: yes
<KadenFrisk[m]>
virtual box just works for me the easiest idk why
<waddlesplash>
ah
<KadenFrisk[m]>
i like throwing in an iso and it just booting
<waddlesplash>
KadenFrisk[m]: it has a nice GUI but the actual VM performance isn't the best
<waddlesplash>
try "virt-manager", that's the main GUI for QEMU/KVM
<KadenFrisk[m]>
don't really care about performance, I have 64gb ram and nice cpu
<KadenFrisk[m]>
can't be that bad
<KadenFrisk[m]>
plus im just trying it out
<phschafft>
waddlesplash: I just hope that I can continue pushing stuff regarding stat() again soon. and after that I will look at the attributes but also reading the mount points.
<waddlesplash>
KadenFrisk[m]: there are certain operations that are literally 500-1000x slower lol
<waddlesplash>
x512[m]: enabling X2API using VBoxManage helps but only solves half the problem
<waddlesplash>
basically X2APIC does not have the sender wait for delivery
<waddlesplash>
so the sender gets unblocked but the receiver still takes the same very long to receive
<waddlesplash>
so it's still slow
<x512[m]>
How Windows/Linux do ICI?
<KadenFrisk[m]>
can grub boot haiku
<coolcoder613>
KadenFrisk[m]: yes
<waddlesplash>
I didn't look at Linux's ICI code but I did look at FreeBSD's
<waddlesplash>
and it looked very similar to Haiku's
<coolcoder613>
KadenFrisk[m]: using chainloader
<waddlesplash>
with one minor difference that I applied to Haiku too
<waddlesplash>
it didn't help
<phschafft>
waddlesplash: it is something that seems outside of many people's bubble: software works in combination often because both sides have workarounds for the other side. not because they actually implement the standard.
<waddlesplash>
yes
<waddlesplash>
which is unfortunate
<KadenFrisk[m]>
so what free vm should I use
<waddlesplash>
KVM
<waddlesplash>
virt-manager is the GUI for Linux
<KadenFrisk[m]>
on windows?
<waddlesplash>
should be in your package manager
<waddlesplash>
oh, on Windows?
<waddlesplash>
VMware, probably
<KadenFrisk[m]>
I have both I'm on windows rn tho
<KadenFrisk[m]>
Can't really switch with what I'm doing rn
<phschafft>
install linux in VB and then use KVM in that. ;)
<x512[m]>
ICI = Inter-(CPU) Core Interrupt.
<waddlesplash>
there's also QEMU with the Windows Hypervisor Platform
<KadenFrisk[m]>
phschafft: BRUH
<KadenFrisk[m]>
waddlesplash: doesn't hyper v require pro
<waddlesplash>
yes
<KadenFrisk[m]>
windows is mid
<waddlesplash>
but Windows Hypervisor Platform doesn't
<waddlesplash>
you can just enable that
<waddlesplash>
and if you have WSL2 then it's already enabled probably
* phschafft
remembers the time when the FreeBSD SETI client was 50% faster in VMware than the native windows client.
<waddlesplash>
lol sounds about right
<coolcoder613>
SETI?
<waddlesplash>
what did the Windows port use, Cygwin?
<waddlesplash>
phschafft: I think I've read some old stories that there were applications that ran faster on the FreeBSD Linuxulator in the early 00s than on Linux. LOL
<waddlesplash>
IIRC the 3D rendering pipeline for some major film studio among them
<waddlesplash>
so not just toy demos
<x512[m]>
SETI is a thing to search alien signals from outer space.
<phschafft>
waddlesplash: na, it was a real native one. but vmware did load some kernel module to change scheduling. so basically the relevant CPU core was fully managed by the FreeBSD scheduler, which at that time worked way batter than the windows one.
<waddlesplash>
when was this? Windows XP era?
<waddlesplash>
sounds about right
<phschafft>
something like that.
<waddlesplash>
was it XP before the service pack that replaced the whole kernel?
* waddlesplash
only knows about 25% of this lore at best
<phschafft>
it was a time windows had problems moving threads between cores.
<waddlesplash>
ouch
<x512[m]>
To me thread scheduling benchmark works faster in Windows XP in VM than in host OS.
<waddlesplash>
well, we can't all be BeOS, doing multicore computing since ... 1992? :P
<waddlesplash>
x512[m]: XP SP3
<KadenFrisk[m]>
I want to write a scheduler
<waddlesplash>
has a totally different kernel than XP original release
<KadenFrisk[m]>
sounds hard
<phschafft>
I think a standard thread was required to be on the same core as the rest of the process. and with some tricks you could move them to other cores but they kept pinned on that one.
<waddlesplash>
KadenFrisk[m]: writing a scheduler is easy. writing a fast scheduler, is hard
<waddlesplash>
Linux still can't get this right for desktops anyway
<waddlesplash>
Haiku's is actually pretty good
<phschafft>
so basically software like games had a fixed thread-to-core layout in-code.
<waddlesplash>
KadenFrisk[m]: honestly schedulers are some of the most interesting code though. Especially the modern ones that are O(1) with respect to threads while still being fair and not starving any for CPU time!
<waddlesplash>
it's kind of crazy that's even possible when you think about it
<phschafft>
and my understanding is basically that vmware just took control over some cores and let the guest use them freely without windows ever interrupting.
<phschafft>
(given no requests to the host were made naturally)
<KadenFrisk[m]>
wdym close drive setup ITS GONE ALREADY
<phschafft>
but as SETI was mostly caluclations that was hardly the case -> so it could gain a lot of performance.
<coolcoder613>
KadenFrisk[m]: Installing haiku?
<KadenFrisk[m]>
yes
<KadenFrisk[m]>
drive setup is gone
<KadenFrisk[m]>
and it wants me to close it
<coolcoder613>
did you close it with the button on the title bar?
<KadenFrisk[m]>
Nope
<KadenFrisk[m]>
💀
<KadenFrisk[m]>
immediately mashed alt f4
<phschafft>
waddlesplash: I think schedulers are like one of the most common interests with kernel developers ;)
<coolcoder613>
You just switched workspaces
<waddlesplash>
... this seems like a bug
<coolcoder613>
alt F1
<waddlesplash>
why does the installer even have multiple workspaces available?
<KadenFrisk[m]>
waddlesplash: nice
<x512[m]>
Alt+F4 do completely different thing compared to Windows. It will switch to 4-th workspace.
<KadenFrisk[m]>
why must i break everything
<waddlesplash>
or, are you in the live environment?
<waddlesplash>
i.e. did you choose "Try Haiku"
<waddlesplash>
or "Install"
<KadenFrisk[m]>
No I did install
<waddlesplash>
yeah this sounds like a bug then
<waddlesplash>
or at least DriveSetup should be pinned to all workspaces too
<x512[m]>
Alt+W is a combination to close window.
<coolcoder613>
waddlesplash: because it is the live envirmonment just without tracker and deskbar running
<waddlesplash>
coolcoder613: I know that, but it seems like we should do something about this
<waddlesplash>
it seems like an easy "footgun"
<coolcoder613>
In BeOS you can get a live environment with the install CD by using ctrl-alt-del
<x512[m]>
Also "Alt" is a shortcut command key like Ctrl in Windows or ⌘ in Mac.
* phschafft
nods to both waddlesplash and coolcoder613 as he thinks both are right.
<KadenFrisk[m]>
what does the windows key do then
<coolcoder613>
stack and tile
* phschafft
looks at his keyboard, noticing that there is no windows key. never thought about that.
<KadenFrisk[m]>
how do I get the flat theme
* coolcoder613
would be lost without his. he uses workspaces in gnome a lot.
<coolcoder613>
KadenFrisk[m]: haiku_extras
<coolcoder613>
install that
<coolcoder613>
with haikudepot
<x512[m]>
Most common shortcuts work with Alt key like Alt+C, Alt+V to copy and paste.
<coolcoder613>
or pkgman
<phschafft>
coolcoder613: I only got my trusty ancient greek key ;)
<waddlesplash>
KadenFrisk[m]: you'll probably want to take the "Quick Tour"
<waddlesplash>
it gives a basic overview of the GUI and differences to other OSes
* waddlesplash
uses Haiku in "Windows" shortcuts mode, with Ctrl+C etc. most of the time
<KadenFrisk[m]>
Straight to krunker can't wait to test this 💀
<waddlesplash>
mmm it will probably be rather slow in Web+
<waddlesplash>
Falkon may do better
<phschafft>
coolcoder613: my point was mainly that touching your pinkie with your thumb is while keeping the rest of your paw straight seems to be uncomfy for most.
<waddlesplash>
oh, it needs WebGL? well, that may not work even in Falkon then
<KadenFrisk[m]>
Krunker froze my vm 🔥
<waddlesplash>
lol
<waddlesplash>
that's not typical
<waddlesplash>
I can't recallthe last time Web+ froze a whole VM
<waddlesplash>
Web+ itself freezes a fair amount, unfortunately
<KadenFrisk[m]>
Is it chromium based
<KadenFrisk[m]>
No?
<KadenFrisk[m]>
Then its w already 🔥
<waddlesplash>
WebKit-based
<KadenFrisk[m]>
literally every browser today is just chromium
<waddlesplash>
but it's a mostly native port
<waddlesplash>
there's WIP work to get it to use multiprocess WebKit
<waddlesplash>
and some of the performance issues would also be solved that way
<phschafft>
I think I had one freeze of Haiku since 2021. and I'm not sure to this day if that was actually Haikus fault.
<waddlesplash>
hmm we should see about reenabling WebKit's custom memory allocator too
<waddlesplash>
replacing hoard2 will improve things but we should just use WebKit's builtin allocator here
<coolcoder613>
KadenFrisk[m]: no, there's also safari(webkit) and firefox(Gecko) as well as chromium(Blink)
<waddlesplash>
Falkon on Haiku is Chromium-based
<waddlesplash>
works better than Web+ for the most part
<phschafft>
custom memory allocators. yummy.
<waddlesplash>
phschafft: heh, I am working on getting hoard2 replaced as Haiku's malloc, finally
<coolcoder613>
and we have firefox too
<waddlesplash>
going with OpenBSD's malloc but it needs an extra global cache I think
<waddlesplash>
so I'm going to port the SplayTree free list into libroot
<waddlesplash>
but first I need to fix the virtual memory manager bugs I keep uncovering ...
<phschafft>
waddlesplash: just that I enjoy the memory allocation topic, maybe more than the scheduler topic.
<waddlesplash>
phschafft: anyway you're lucky if you've had only one Haiku freeze since 2021
<waddlesplash>
I get multiple freezes per month. Admittedly some of this is due to running all kinds of test builds with patches that sometimes break things
<phschafft>
sadly I never really got my code to the speed of other implementations. but it often comes with other features. :)
<waddlesplash>
But some are definitely pre-existing bugs
<waddlesplash>
like the one that was discussed in here earlier today
<phschafft>
waddlesplash: I mean it feels like it's part of your job.
<waddlesplash>
yes
<phschafft>
but it isn't part of mine.
<waddlesplash>
well, the "reader-writer file-cache resize" deadlock that I keep hitting is definitely a long standing Haiku bug
<phschafft>
I think I'm in the good middle ground: a dumb user, but not so dumb that I break things. ;)
<waddlesplash>
I wonder why I started hitting that more often recently, probably just the performance optimizations made it easier to hit
<waddlesplash>
phschafft: oh, this one requires no human action to hit
<waddlesplash>
majority of the times I hit it, it occurred on boot
<phschafft>
no humans in my office anyway!
<waddlesplash>
after the desktop appeared, often
<waddlesplash>
but I got it after boot too
<phschafft>
waddlesplash: hm, is that related to that other disk IO performance thing that happned somewhen earlier? ha, how specific I am.
<waddlesplash>
I don't know?
<phschafft>
I just remember that there was something about when you alter many files or something.
<waddlesplash>
ah yes
<waddlesplash>
no this isn't related
<phschafft>
okay.
<phschafft>
so maybe again just not my domain -> me being a bit more lucky.
<waddlesplash>
yeah
<waddlesplash>
well, that hang at least I have a potential fix for
<waddlesplash>
but there's probably more lingering
<phschafft>
let's be real, there always is.
<waddlesplash>
lol, yeah
<phschafft>
someone once said to me that every ten lines there is a bug.
<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] ddd374f0fee0 - HaikuDepot: Implement core info model
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<HaikuUser>
hello all
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<HaikuUser>
I just copied the Vision settings file from the other HAIKU install but nothing happens!? Still same! Do I need to restart HAIKUß
<HaikuUser>
*ß= ?
<HaikuUser>
rb
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<x512[m]>
waddlesplash: WebGL works on Wayland based browsers such as Epiphany and Firefox.
<x512[m]>
But Mesa Wayland is not yet packaged at HaikuPorts.
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<Begasus[m]>
guess it's part of the mesa package x512?
<x512[m]>
No, it need separate Mesa build with Wayland enabled/
<Begasus[m]>
probably with the needed patching? (with same source uri?)
<x512[m]>
And currently HGL and Wayland OpenGL drivers are mutally-exclusive.
<x512[m]>
Vulkan driver can be compiled to support both Wayland and native Haiku output.
<x512[m]>
The problem is that Wayland OpenGL support use DRM framework, but HGL don't use DRM framework, it use Gallium directly.
<x512[m]>
DRM framework is considered obsolete and it is in process of removal (but it may take decades).
<Begasus[m]>
(but it may take decades).* I probably won't be around for that :P
<x512[m]>
Anyway it can be currently solved by compiling OpenGL driver twice: for Wayland and for HGL.
<x512[m]>
DRM framework refactor/removal is not our business, but Mesa developers.
<Begasus>
HGL is the one we already have I guess?
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<x512[m]>
Yes.
<Begasus>
+1, could try to run a build later on maybe :)
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<cratuki>
Have there been serious attempts to develop (1) BeFS over network or (2) ability to mount 9p on Be?
<cratuki>
I should say, Be/Haiku
<dovsienko>
cratuki: there's a way to network-mount BFS from one Haiku host to another, but I do not immediately remember the component name
<dovsienko>
"remote_disk_server" it is
<dovsienko>
some said it should be replaced with NDB to make it interoperable with other OSes
<dovsienko>
or rather NBD (network block device)
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<HaikuUser>
howdy partner
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<Begasus>
x512[m], stuck atm with undefined references (not that I think I'm doing it right but still) :) https://bpa.st/CBYA
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<augiedoggie>
there is a network bfs server, but it has issues sharing between 32/64 bit Haiku boxes
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<augiedoggie>
netfs_server, netfs_mount, etc...
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<phschafft>
as discussed with nephele before, a lot of the Haiku API seems to just assumes that everything it will ever be in contact with uses the same CPU and compiler values.
<phschafft>
e.g. when you write a BMessage to disk it is literally a dump of the memory structure. there is no serialisation happening.
<phschafft>
so if you load it again and something changed in between it might explode.
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<phschafft>
my guess would be that somesthing similar might happen here as well.
<augiedoggie>
my guess with the server is a difference in 32/64 bit time_t
* phschafft
nods: something like that.
<phschafft>
but if you do it right you have a given format on-wire and on-disk and stuff like that just doesn't matter at all.
<phschafft>
when I hear something doesn't work over the network with a 32/64 bit split my brain automatically gets me into remote memory corruption with potential remote code execution mode.
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<janking>
hi
<janking>
my sound stop working bu i fi it with usb soundcard. :)
<phschafft>
when/how did it stop working?
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<janking>
i dont now , just now i had computer on in 6 day and now its not working (forgive me my bad english)
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<janking>
after 6 days i restarted my computer and then it stop working
<bjorkintosh>
janking: it didn't say why?
<janking>
i have framebuffer driver
<janking>
no it dident bjorkintosh
<bjorkintosh>
hmm. if you have a different OS on a thumb drive, you could boot from that and see if the sound card is still alive.
<bjorkintosh>
if it is, it's a driver issue in Haiku.
<janking>
no ihave just Haiku on my computer
<bjorkintosh>
do you have a flash drive with a bootable OS on it?>
<janking>
when i restaterd so it works for minutes and then it stop working
<janking>
yes i have have bjorkintosh
<bjorkintosh>
oh it works for a few minutes and then stops.
<bjorkintosh>
hmm.
<janking>
yes
<bjorkintosh>
do you have specs on the sound component?
<janking>
dmidecode tells me nothing
<janking>
sysinfo tells me nothing
<bjorkintosh>
what about the hardware specs?
<bjorkintosh>
surely the manufacturer of the device might know a thing or two about the sound component.
<waddlesplash>
phschafft: that's not true re. BMessage
<waddlesplash>
it's not a dump of a memory structure, it properly serializes
<PulkoMandy>
There is a netfs shipped with haiku (not bfs, but similar functionalities). And there is also a remote_disk_server that is more like nbd (then you can do strictly bfsover network if you really want that)
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<phschafft>
waddlesplash: then I guess the code I looked at was outdated or something? still maybe something to check again. just to be sure as it's critical infrastructure.
<waddlesplash>
it is absolutely possible to load BMessages serialized on one architecture on another
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<janking>
now after resatarding my soundcard is working again :)
<janking>
restarding
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