<AlienSoldier>
red-green-red-greed, it is still xmax
<scantysnax>
lols AlienSoldier
<Yoke>
holy fuck did someone's internet have a stroke or something?
<scantysnax>
net might not be good where ever in russia he his...
<Yoke>
I mean that's..... fair
<Yoke>
good lord though
<Yoke>
it's christmas all over again with the amount of red and green
<augiedoggie>
it's not uncommon for an IRC client to freak out for a variety of reasons
<augiedoggie>
just need to ping one of the operators to kick him temporarily, like waddlesplash
<scantysnax>
speaking of, are there any devs in the house?
<scantysnax>
experiencing a maybe bug.
<Halian>
New keyboard and replacement trackball get \:D/
<Yoke>
Nice
<Halian>
augiedoggie: can confirm; when I used HexChat under Windows, it would randomly crash soemtimes
<Halian>
*sometimes
<Yoke>
I've been meaning to try a trackball, are they any good or is a bit of a gimmiky thing?
<scantysnax>
wouldn't want to get used to a trackball when all other systems i will use will not have one.
<scantysnax>
if that's your thing, fine.
<Yoke>
looking at them I don't really understand, is it just so you don't move your arm about? (or fingers with how mice seem to be going)
<scantysnax>
you don't really need too much arm movement with a regular mouse.
<Yoke>
yeah that's what i mean
<Halian>
Yoke: I like them
<Halian>
scantysnax: you can plug the trackball into your other systems :þ
<Halian>
The main draws of a trackball for me are ① minimal wrist movement, lessening RSI risk ② since you don't move the whole thing, it takes up less desk space, and my desk is cluttered
<scantysnax>
you could, but what a pain in the ass. it's not like i'm going to leave my house and take it with me if i know i will be using a computer
<augiedoggie>
my old laptop had a trackball built into it that was nice
<Yoke>
I totaly don't do that with my heavy ass mx master..... yeah
<scantysnax>
sure, i'll work on your system... but first let me get my trackball... i don't get it.
<augiedoggie>
why would a trackball be a requirement?
<Saijin_Naib[m]>
Ploopy has amazing trackballs
<Yoke>
then you gotta ask if it's alright to plug something into their system in the first place, I'd guess some places would be pretty iffy about that
<scantysnax>
that is basically my point.
<Habbie>
my wife absolutely brings her trackball places
<Halian>
Nice
<AlienSoldier>
i only like trackballs for games
<Halian>
scantysnax: if it's not your thing, that's perfectly fine
<Halian>
but I'm trackball-pilled >w<
<zdykstra>
Where are you going that you're constantly using random computers?
<scantysnax>
i do a lot of a lot of things.
<zdykstra>
When I actually worked at an office, I just expensed a trackball for my desk ...
<Yoke>
lucky
<zdykstra>
How's that lucky? Most places with desk jobs will do that, I imagine
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<Yoke>
only if you have some sort of accesability need over here, other than that it's just suck it up and deal with it
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<waddlesplash>
adrian_: if it's "PS/2 Mouse" then it's just the PS2 driver
<waddlesplash>
all the support for PS/2 is in one driver and published as separate devices
<adrian_>
waddlesplash: how do i get the list of devices?
<scantysnax>
listdev
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<artemisroadrunt>
Hi this is my first time trying IRC. The discord link didn't work. Hopefully I'm doing this right. I need help installing Haiku on VM.
<phschafft>
then, welcome. and what is your question?
<waddlesplash>
adrian_: listdev lists PCI
<waddlesplash>
there's some argument to get more than just PCI
<waddlesplash>
also Devices app
<waddlesplash>
however not all drivers are properly tied to the device tree yet unfortunately
<waddlesplash>
and the "driver" field may not be properly filled in even if they are
<waddlesplash>
there's a bunch of TODOs here
<artemisroadrunt>
Thank you phschafft for the welcome. I am curious if I have to do anything specific with VM or if I can just choose the ISO I downloaded and thats all.
<phschafft>
last time I did that I just downloaded the nightly. but naturally those are not stable in any way.
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<phschafft>
people seem to have different opinions. but I always had luck with qemu based virtualisation.
<artemisroadrunt>
ok. Next question, is 32 bit a better option or should I try the 64 bit version?
<artemisroadrunt>
my pc is 64 bit, but I dont think it matters in vm
<zdykstra>
If you have legacy software to run, 32bit. Otherwise 64bit
<phschafft>
again, personal opinion here: we're in the 21th, 32 bit should be *way* in the past ;)
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<artemisroadrunt>
Ill vm the 64 bit then. I read on haikus FAQ about it being very different from BE OS inspired coding in 32 bit
<phschafft>
there is no 32 binary compatibility as you find in other systems.
<phschafft>
but that does only matter if you want to run old beos binaries.
<phschafft>
for all software compiled for Haiku that shouldn't really matter (someone correct me if I miss anything)
<artemisroadrunt>
Ok. still going to use 64. I use linux btw lol
<phschafft>
I hear virt-manager even detects Haiku correctly as a guest OS.
<Yoke>
It stands to reason if you even know about the existance of Haiku you probably daily drive linux or a BSD derivative
<artemisroadrunt>
What is BSD like? I only know Linux, Windows, and MAC. the first one being what I currently use the most. the last being my least used OS
<Yoke>
BSD is derived from Unix same as Linux is, so at it's base it's for the most part the same, I haven't messed with it much myself but when you use something premade it feels pretty much the same as any linux distribution, this is just my opinion though and i feel like it would piss off people on both sides of the fence.
<phschafft>
it likely does. and that is why I skipped answering.
<phschafft>
I mean I don't agree with you like, more than 10%, but at least I enjoy that you have a different opinion. ;)
<Yoke>
I'm tired to the point of being somewhere between don't care avenue and insomnia way, I'm gonna let opinions fly lol
<artemisroadrunt>
Ok sorry I mentioned it.
<artemisroadrunt>
I need to install Haiku on vm now. I'll be back if I have questions. If not, Ill respond my reaction to it later. :)
<phschafft>
I would say that BSD and Linux ae both connected via POSIX (and so is Haiku!). So while they are completly different systems a good number of software is available for all of the as-is.
<phschafft>
so naturally a user may not see that much of a difference. a power user, or higher may/will.
<Yoke>
this one is sure to annoy someone but MacOS at it's core is a super modified version of NextStep, which in itself is Unix based (if i got that wrong just say)
<Yoke>
For most people having something that can get on the internet and not crash every time they close a tab (if they ever do)
<Yoke>
is enough
<phschafft>
all fruitware is basically a copy of something else with a ton of marketing added. I don't have the biggest contact surface. but I must say that for the modern (non-classic) ones I have not seen a single thing that I have not seen somewhere else often years earlier.
<Yoke>
yep, and whenever they have done something first it's buggered everything up for everyone else
<Saijin_Naib[m]>
<phschafft> "I hear virt-manager even detects..." <- Very easy guest OS
<artemisroadrunt>
I actually gtg. Do I just close this window?
<andreasdr[m]>
Hi there.
<artemisroadrunt>
hello
<artemisroadrunt>
Im gonna try to close this window. I gtg now
<artemisroadrunt>
thank you guys
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<Yoke>
brb gotta go dark for a min
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<adrian_>
waddlesplash: ok, listdev and devices
<adrian_>
waddlesplash: got it
<waddlesplash>
there's also listusb for USB devices specifically
<adrian_>
waddlesplash: i had haiku build crap out early tonight, i gotta get irssi installed on it so i can chat
<adrian_>
waddlesplash: whilst tinkering
<adrian_>
also
<adrian_>
do y'all have laptop acpi stuff?
<waddlesplash>
if you didn't disable building bios loader then it may quit early yeah
<adrian_>
like s3 suspend?
<waddlesplash>
we don't have sleep if that's what you're asking
<waddlesplash>
at all
<waddlesplash>
unfortunately
<adrian_>
ah ok
<waddlesplash>
been on the TODO forever
<adrian_>
yeah
<waddlesplash>
at this point we need a big refactor of the device manager before we can do that
<adrian_>
*nod*
<waddlesplash>
but that's also been kicked down the road ...
<adrian_>
not today, i just want the touchpad working better
<waddlesplash>
yeah that's more doable lol
<waddlesplash>
seeing as there are touchpads that do work
<adrian_>
yeah
<adrian_>
and i unfortunately, sigh, know the synaptics stuff
<waddlesplash>
so getting your touchpad to work in touchpad mode with gestures and all that should be easier
<adrian_>
god i wish i didn't
<waddlesplash>
hmm I thought synaptics generally worked already
<waddlesplash>
and it was elantech that didn't
<waddlesplash>
but idk
<adrian_>
i'll go look
<waddlesplash>
we do have elantech code too tho
<waddlesplash>
it's just disabled and doesn't work quite right
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<kantraa>
Hello everyone
<Begasus>
Hi kantraa
<kantraa>
How are you doing on this fine day
<Begasus>
fine as usual :)
<Begasus>
How is it going there?
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<kantraa>
Pretty good
<kantraa>
Exams are starting in a few days I'm a bit stressed
<Begasus>
Just be sure to take your time to prepare for it :)
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<Begasus>
hi jmairboeck
<Begasus>
thanks for spotting that one :)
<jmairboeck>
hi Begasus
<jmairboeck>
another thing I found weird when looking at this patchset: on Windows it links ws2_32 (winsock), but not libnetwork on Haiku. Or does it somewhere?
<Begasus>
I had that in, but reverted it, doesn't seem to error on it
<jmairboeck>
but it could well be that the Windows code is quite different to the Unix code, so that doesn't have to mean anything
<dovsienko>
Begasus: if that reproduces reliably, the usual next step is to have a debugger produce the stack trace to see if there's a runaway pointer somewhere
<dovsienko>
(that's how I debug things on Linux)
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<Begasus>
dovsienko, it is, has been crashing on launch since day one, been fiddling with mlt a bit more, but no changes with those
<Begasus>
now if I knew how to debug this (noob with that) :)
<dovsienko>
when Clang was crashing with SIGSEGV in my tests, it always popped up a GUI dialog with a "debugger" button
<Begasus>
with strace I don't get that, but a normal launch in Terminal pops up in a debug window
<Begasus>
I could save the report, but wouldn't even know where to look (or what to look) for :)
<dovsienko>
there should be the stack trace, but that likely requires the binary to have the debugging symbols (the "-g" flag of GCC and Clang)
<dovsienko>
the segfault is certainly in QT, the question is whether QT code in this case is trying to use a pointer that comes from QT itself (which would be a QT bug) or from the application (which would be the application bug)
<dovsienko>
hmmm, although QArrayDataPointerIDs is in /boot/system/bin/shotcut, so that's some kind of a callback from QT back into the application, which means it would be easier to debug it
<Begasus>
could run a build with debug enabled, it's using "Release (cmake)" atm
<dovsienko>
QArrayDatapointer<char32_t>::~QArrayDat... looks like a destructor of a class template to me
<dovsienko>
so I would take the source code of shotcut and add a couple debug prints to warnIfNotWritable()
<Begasus>
ok, now you got me :)
<dovsienko>
maybe it is trying to validate a file name that is a NULL, or some such
<Begasus>
ok, first do a build with RelWithDebInfo
<Begasus>
whoot, base package almost the same, debug package +32MiB :)
<dovsienko>
typically with debug information you should be able to see the exact line numbers, but I am not skilled with Haiku debugger
<dovsienko>
"this" in C++ is a pointer to the current object instantiated from the class, which in normal circumstances cannot be one byte away from the NULL pointer
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<dovsienko>
it should be in the data segment of the process, or maybe on the stack, but not at 0x1. if it is, that will surely trigger a SIGSEGV
<dovsienko>
so I would guess a pointer to an object gets wrong somewhere in MainWindow::showEvent() or shortly afterwards
<Begasus>
should have done better at school when I was young(er) :)
<dovsienko>
where's the source code of this thing?
<Begasus>
first comment on that :) // This is needed to prevent a crash on windows on startup when timeline
<dovsienko>
a competent user of a debugger would set a breakpoint at the beginnng of the method and see which line crashes it, but I do not know how to do that
<dovsienko>
it would be really nice to see the line numbers in the stack trace
<Begasus>
np, thanks for thinking along
<dovsienko>
the most practicable thing is to put a printf() before every statement of the method (this would be just 13) and see which specific statement triggers it
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<Begasus>
getting this now when launching from terminal
<Begasus>
those 2 contain the printf() statement
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<dovsienko>
Begasus: what is on line after 2650 now?
<Begasus>
Q_UNUSED(event)
<Begasus>
well, those 2 commented out lines and then Q_UNUSED(event)
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<dovsienko>
Begasus: and after Q_UNUSED there's a printf(), correct?
<dovsienko>
I am looking at the usage of Q_UNUSED() in other places of the source tree and so far I am seeing it applied to a reference argument rather than a pointer
<dovsienko>
in src/models/multitrackmodel.cpp:2013 it is applied to an int
<dovsienko>
so if it is indeed "#define Q_UNUSED(x) (void)x;", then I cannot understand why doing or not doing it triggers a segv because there's no pointer dereference here
<phschafft>
there is a printf() after it?
<Begasus>
nope phschafft, atm like it's in the link presented earlier
<Begasus>
did have the next lines wrapped in printf() before though
<Begasus>
yes phschafft
<phschafft>
the difference is that the optimizer may have a different opinion depending on such hints.
<phschafft>
I'm not into C++ to really tell what is going on however.
<Begasus>
I'm not into anything :) but appreciat the help +1
<phschafft>
but you could try adding something like: printf("DEBUG: event=%p\", event);
<Begasus>
appreciate(?)
<phschafft>
that will *force* a use of the pointer without a dereference.
<Begasus>
inside that statement?
<dovsienko>
phschafft: the matter is, the argument is indeed not used in the method
<phschafft>
(because the compiler can just not optimise that the printf() away no matter what)
<phschafft>
yes, so my idea here is to force the usage and then see if it changes things.
<phschafft>
also keep in mind that with C++ if you change anything in a class you need to recombile all code that includes that class (also indirectly).
<dovsienko>
make it "\n" at the end, like the other debug prints
<Begasus>
so far I'm happy to find the root cause, and got it launching (even with a hack) :)
<dovsienko>
that's not the root cause yet, just a workaround
<Begasus>
printf("DEBUG: event=%p\\n", event);
<Begasus>
hence the "hack" thingy :)
<Begasus>
root cause thinking about the place where it fails
<dovsienko>
I still do not understand how that relates with ending up in a destructor of an object with this == 0x1
<dovsienko>
"\n", not "\\n" please
<Begasus>
just in time :)
<Begasus>
should save this later in the patchset
<phschafft>
what dovsienko said about \n
<Begasus>
changed just in time to: printf("DEBUG: event=%p\n", event);
<phschafft>
generally errors like that are somewhere else. but forcing it to do something some way might give a better picture.
<phschafft>
I also recommend using valgrind. it will detect a lot of memory access errors. even those that are within correctly mapped memory.
<Begasus>
0_°
<phschafft>
so that can sometimes find the problem or at least part of the problem.
<Begasus>
do we even have valgrind?
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<dovsienko>
address sanitiser and undefined behaviour sanitising would also be helpful, as well as static code analysis, but all of that belongs to the responsibilities of the original developers rather than a package maintainer
<dovsienko>
short version: make a bug report to the upstream with the steps to reproduce and the workaround
<dovsienko>
anyway, what did the latest debug print output?
<Begasus>
checking, build just finished
<Begasus>
beside the two lines earlier this one: DEBUG: event=0x7fa3aa294370
<dovsienko>
does not look immediately invalid to me
<dovsienko>
this supposedly comes from QT
<phschafft>
I must say I strongy agree with dovsienko: that IS a problem of the software so it should be a problem of the authors. still a mainatiner should be helful. e.g. sometimes it's only visible on some platforms. then good communication and a helping hand can speed up a solution a lot.
<phschafft>
sounds valid, yes.
<Begasus>
maybe 3dEyes could have a look later if he has some time then
<Begasus>
I can report upstream also
<Begasus>
but first food :)
<Begasus>
thanks guys!
<andreasdr[m]>
Hi there.
<dovsienko>
I do not understand how voiding a pointer in the source code would influence the actual code path at run time
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<phschafft>
dovsienko: my understanding is that it marks it as used and therefore might not be optimised out.
<phschafft>
but surely that is somewhere wthin the (black) magic of compilers/optimisers.
<phschafft>
and if it changes what the program does then there is a problem somewhere.
<phschafft>
even if it generates different code, it should not generate code that does different things (like die)
<dovsienko>
phschafft: no code in that method uses the "event" argument, correct?
<phschafft>
correct.
<phschafft>
depending on the call convetions it might be passed as a register or via stack.
<phschafft>
I mean if you really want to know what the difference is, look at the compiler output for both cases.
<dovsienko>
so the Q_UNUSED line is just the tip of the iceberg, there's something else at play
<phschafft>
my guess is that the stack is already corrupted and the compiler generates a little bit different boiler blade code, one triggering the segfault and the other one doesn't.
<phschafft>
and exactly that is my point. it might be the tip of the stack that is slightly different. ;)
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<Begasus>
output from build with changes done, nothing specific in there: https://bpa.st/PXZQ
<dovsienko>
the warning about src/util.cpp is genuine
<Begasus>
thought so, afaict not really related
<Begasus>
and nothing on mainwindow.cpp
<dovsienko>
Util::isMemoryLow() is empty because it does not have a preprocessor branch that would match Haiku. having an "#else #error" at the end would help to fail earlier
<dovsienko>
please make it another bug report to the upstream
<Begasus[m]>
k, nothing upstream about Haiku, so this hasn't been reported before
<dovsienko>
your chance to introduce this feedback loop
<Begasus>
hope I can write up something useful :)
<dovsienko>
on Haiku Util::isMemoryLow() would need to use the same means as "About Haiku" does
<Begasus>
I'll wrap up the build, add the patchset for debug info, push the changes to haikuports (build disabled) first
<dovsienko>
and it would be helpful to fail at the compile time if no OS matched
* phschafft
nods.
<phschafft>
however I must say a function called Util::isMemoryLow() sounds a little bit... strange to begin with.
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<dovsienko>
what the developers could do is run "git grep Q_OS_" and check which parts of the code require Haiku-specific blocks
<dovsienko>
because there may be other bugs that do not prevent the software from starting, but could be triggered later
<phschafft>
dovsienko++
<Begasus>
you guys make it sound so easy :)
<Begasus[m]>
do you guys mind if I link the log in the issue upstream, I guess they could grab more info than I could explain there :)
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<dovsienko>
it is public anyway
<Begasus[m]>
just asking, don't want to step on anyones feet :)
<phschafft>
I don't know if anything I said would help, but I hink it would at least wise to include that printf() of the event pointer returned a value that seems valid.
<Begasus[m]>
+1
<dovsienko>
the steps to reproduce the problem are important
* phschafft
nods.
<Begasus[m]>
aside from building and launching there isn't much else involved?
<phschafft>
maybe there is also a build log.
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<Begasus[m]>
err ... could grab that, means a clean build though :)
<phschafft>
maybe something that includes the compiler flags.
<dovsienko>
opinions are subject to interpretation and can be taken as starting points if that makes sense
<Begasus>
reboot ..
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<dovsienko>
Begasus[m]: maybe tell the developers how to get a VM into the required initial state
<dovsienko>
and quote the compiler and QT versions
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<Begasus>
k, build launched
<Begasus[m]>
me is bad at reporting issues when not so comfortable :)
<Hanicef[m]>
anyone else having issues booting haiku on latest nightly? i get into the bootloader but can't boot the os due to it saying that the boot volume is not valid (i'm using qemu)
<Begasus>
not me, and I'm not going to check latest nightly now :)
<Begasus>
k, enough for one day
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<Begasus>
closing down here, cu and thanks peeps!
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<dovsienko>
Hanicef[m]: hrev58475 has booted fine in my VirtualBox
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<nagerst>
dingleding
<scantysnax>
good afternoon.
<nagerst>
What version of debian do i have to use for amiwm to work? I am prepared to go VERY far.
<nagerst>
no errors, but it just crashes
<scantysnax>
i keep debian 10 around just in case i need to do something i can't do in haiku. never tried amwim before, however.
<nagerst>
the third most used embedded UI not working is rather poor showing for debian.
<nagerst>
or perhaps i am just doing it wrong
<scantysnax>
some day i will switch back to freebsd.
<scantysnax>
things are running well here, so i don't want to poke the bear.
<scantysnax>
OS Uptime [Haiku]: 16 days 38 mins 53.45 secs
<nagerst>
most banks in sweden, norway, finland, estonia and latvia uses Claes implementation of amiwm
<scantysnax>
neat
<nagerst>
only for the terminals where you get money though
<nagerst>
in olden times they used either OS2 or NT4
<scantysnax>
i always that OS2 was interesting.
<scantysnax>
it was like windows, but not
<nagerst>
In the way that you swallow the bad to get the good?
<nagerst>
1.2 was better than dos, but shit
<nagerst>
2.0 was NT but with a shitty filesystem
<nagerst>
windows today is a good kernel (sadly not free) on a VERY old flie system.
<nagerst>
old does not mean bad, but even david Cutler who wrote it said naah!
<scantysnax>
i keep a copy of windows 7 on this PC *just in case*
<nagerst>
30 years later he hates his old design
<nagerst>
the best filesystem designers are Giampalo and the people behind XFS.
<scantysnax>
sometimes i have to do audio work on this PC, and that means windows.
<scantysnax>
so my hands are kind of tied.
<nagerst>
why=
<nagerst>
What part does not work with jack nowadays?
<scantysnax>
i use reason, a daw. it's not available for haiku obviously.
<scantysnax>
that is why i need windows sometimes.
<x512[m]>
nagerst: Windows kernel is bad too. It is overcomplicated and inefficient.
<nagerst>
yes your particular hardware is unlikely to work with pulse or pipewire.
<scantysnax>
when i feel like composing something.
<x512[m]>
Linux works better on servers.
<nagerst>
x512[m]: correct
<nagerst>
x512[m]: but it is rather fast
<x512[m]>
NT kernel have overhead caused by its overengeneering.
<nagerst>
x512[m]: Any stray kernel works better on any CPU. Examples are Amiga Exec** Haiku-newos, mach7(ios) steamos(linux)
<x512[m]>
And NT kernel overingenerring is meaningless because it is not used by its own outside of Windows.
<nagerst>
NT kernel has some very nice advantages
<nagerst>
Linux have workarounds for all of them
<nagerst>
Portability?
<nagerst>
no
<x512[m]>
NT kernel is actually portable. There were a lot of versions for Alpha, SPARC etc. Now ARM[64] versions are available. The only problem with portability if closed source code.
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<nagerst>
good point it WAS portable. tru compiling any XP code for ppc or alpha
<nagerst>
ill wait
<nagerst>
=D
<x512[m]>
I have no access to NT kernel source code.
<nagerst>
Do you want it?
<x512[m]>
It can't be done legally for me.
<nagerst>
i have all cutler source code.
<x512[m]>
I am not working in Microsoft.
<nagerst>
leak 2004
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<x512[m]>
Leaks shouldn't be used.
<nagerst>
thank you
<nagerst>
the beos leaks is different for me
<nagerst>
the company died
<x512[m]>
BeOS leaks are even more dangerous because it may cause Haiku contributions to be illegal.
<x512[m]>
BeOS assets are still owned by someone.
<nagerst>
geist said it can not be illegal
<nagerst>
geist is the one that wrote the beos kernel v2
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<x512[m]>
Can that Geist give a legal promise that nobody will be sued for this?
<nagerst>
and that is why no assetts at all is used by haiku- Mclintock is redesigned to haiky foundation
<x512[m]>
BeOS assets are currently owned by Access Co. if I am correct.
<nagerst>
yes
<nagerst>
there is no mention of BeOS other than inspiration in the documentation
<nagerst>
access corp doues do not own your feelings
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<nagerst>
no i wont share
<nagerst>
you are right
<nagerst>
makes me sad
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<nagerst>
Begasus[m]: please interject and tell me i am wrong
<nagerst>
I am wrong. I admit and subit.
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