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<Glanzmann>
DarkShadow44 / VinDuv: Maybe we should prepare you one patch with 4k and VinDuv timing patch so that you can have the right resolution as well as monitor output
<VinDuv>
If you apply both patches and boot with display=wait,3840x2160, it should boot in 4k and m1n1 will say “waiting for monitor disconnect” and then wait 10 seconds
<VinDuv>
btw I’m working on a Python script that detects, from macOS, if a monitor disconnects during wakeup (so it needs m1n1 to wait) as well as its native resolution. If it works well and is integrated into the installer, it could autoconfigure the display= option in m1n1 during installation.
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<Glanzmann>
VinDuv: Maybe I have later tonight time for it during a train ride. Thank you for the instructions.
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<Glanzmann>
jannau: About 4k screens, is display_fb_alloc or display_fb_alloc2 better?
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<Glanzmann>
DarkShadow44: I updated https://tg.st/u/4k.bin according to VinDuv instructions. If you have time you can try it (need to be copied to boot.bin). It should give you a picture and the right resolution.
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<m1n1m4[m]>
<Sobek[m]> "Is a NNPU as hard to reverse and..." <- I think, honestly apple would gain a lot "opening the curtain", if they really want to be in a better place on the desktop market. I mean ms last past patch tuesday had 47 ( think about this ), 47 remote code execution patches and one no click...
<m1n1m4[m]>
m1n1m4[m]: so windows is a slowly sinking boat, being patched all the time and "facelifted" to make people look the other way.
<m1n1m4[m]>
m1n1m4[m]: So really apple opening up to finally replace wintel on mainstream destops and also considering linux would be their best market offer at this moment. At least their profits were historically high last semester / year.
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<victorhooi[m]>
Is there any way to install Asahi Linux on a bootable usb stick?
<victorhooi[m]>
(reason is I'm hoping to run k3s, with rook (to deploy ceph), and I want to hand over the internal NVMe drive in the M1 completely over to k3s/rook
<j`ey>
victorhooi[m]: you still need the m1n1 bootloader on the nvme (uses 3gb)
<j`ey>
but otherwise u-boot can boot from usb
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<victorhooi[m]>
ah bugger
<victorhooi[m]>
the issue isn't so how much space it would consume
<victorhooi[m]>
as in, 3gb is fine
<victorhooi[m]>
the issue is more ceph ideally needs full control over the disk
<victorhooi[m]>
as in, you hand it a raw block device
<victorhooi[m]>
is there any other way or workaround, you could do this with a mac m1?
<j`ey>
external storage for ceph?
<mps>
m1n1m4[m]: apple is not in this 'bandwagon'
<arnd>
victorhooi[m]: last year I experimented with an external Thunderbolt SSD. At the time it was possible to install a bootable copy of MacOS on that, but I could not have two separate copies, or m1n1/Linux installed on it, because of the way the boot process is done. I don't know if this has changed in the meantime, I now use m1n1 on the internal disk to boot from an external USB-attached SSD
<victorhooi[m]>
yeah, I guess the other way is to use a thunderbolt drive and pass that through to ceph
<victorhooi[m]>
but then I'm wasting the very expensive (and fast) 2TB NVMe drive inside the mac mini m1
<arnd>
at the moment, thunderbolt doesn't work in Linux, so it has to be a USB attached SSD
<victorhooi[m]>
I don't need dual boot for mac/linux (assuming I can still revert to macos sometime in future)
<victorhooi[m]>
so if that's not a limitation
<victorhooi[m]>
is there perhaps a way just to get linux running on the m1 with an external drive?
<victorhooi[m]>
basically I just want a 3-node ceph cluster - that's asahi linux + k3s + ceph
<arnd>
Not sure if you can create an additional nvme 'namespace' on the internal drive as you could on a proper nvme disk. The internal drive is close to the nvme spec, but not quite the same
<sven>
iirc the "create namespace" commands doesn't work
<arnd>
ok
<sven>
there's also two more special namespaces that seem to contain some kind of macos panics or something. i think they abuse the namespaces for their own purpose
<sven>
victorhooi[m]: do you just need to pass along a single partition or the entire disk?
<victorhooi[m]>
ideally the whole disk
<victorhooi[m]>
as a raw device
<victorhooi[m]>
you can try to do clever things with partitions - I used lvm on linux - but performance takes a hit, and it's not as reliable
<sven>
so it would try to use the entire disk and overwrite e.g. the partition table?
<ChaosPrincess>
you can't use the whole internal disk, the bootloader expects certain partitions to be there and will refuse to work if they are gone
<sven>
yeah, you could pass through the entire disk but you'd have to make sure ceph doesn't mess with the GPT or the required system partitions
<victorhooi[m]>
hmm - I'm curious - the limitation around the bootloader expecting to be on the internal disk
<victorhooi[m]>
is that just as it's currently designed
<victorhooi[m]>
or is there some technical reason for that?
<victorhooi[m]>
sven: and yeah - ceph would likely zap the disk (ceph zap) - which I assume would render the mac mini unbootable?
<sven>
we only get control long after apple's bootloader already expected certain partitions with firmware, etc. on the internal nvme
<j`ey>
I dont understand this bit "There is no external storage boot support in the bootloader flow on these machines. Behind the scenes, booting macOS from an external drive involves the moral equivalent of copying /boot to internal storage"
<j`ey>
what bit copies from the external drive, if there is no external drive support?
<ChaosPrincess>
boot picker is actually something like a full macos
<sven>
yeah, the external disk setup doesn't happen inside iBoot. it happens from macOS
<Sobek[m]>
Basically if you want to boot macOS from an external drive, you'll end up with a preboot + recovery volum on the internal drive that can only then hand-off to the external root.
<j`ey>
does that mean you can only boot external drivers from the boot picker, and not as the default startup disk?
<sven>
no
<sven>
you set it up once, macos copies the required stuff to the internal disk (~ cp /mnt/external-disk/boot /mnt/internal-disk/boot)
<j`ey>
ohh
<j`ey>
I thought it copied on every boot
<sven>
i don't think so
<m1n1m4[m]>
<mps> "m1n1m4!: apple is not in this '..." <- That is sad, have you seen this?
<sven>
after all whatever is in these system partitions only changes during an update and that update runs a ramdisk with a stripped down macos anyway which can just update that partition
<m1n1m4[m]>
> <@asahi-test:matrix.org> That is sad, have you seen this?
<m1n1m4[m]>
Maybe apple could change their approach no?
<m1n1m4[m]>
m1n1m4[m]: has anyone tried to reach them recently?
<Sobek[m]>
I think the person behind OpenBSD on M1 has been discussing with the Asahi folk quite a bit. There may have even been some exchanges of codes in addition to knowledge.
<mps>
I doubt, I know apple from apple II iirc
<j`ey>
Sobek[m]: yes mark (ket_tenis without the _ is here)
<mps>
Sobek[m]: I think kettenis did most for m1 in openbsd
<Sobek[m]>
So much for not hl ing him ^^'
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<m1n1m4[m]>
Sobek[m]: ah, so not with apple themselves, i see...
<mps>
yes, and I forgot to put _
<m1n1m4[m]>
m1n1m4[m]: still i insist they have a narrow perspective. However they did not lock the bootloader...
<j`ey>
m1n1m4[m]: none of this has been with any contact from apple
<Sobek[m]>
I don't remember, given the license Darwin is released under, is it possible to look at and possibly reuse some Darwin code in Linux, or is this impossible ? (Ignoring the fact that Darwin releases hardly any of the interesting bits of drivers, anyways)
<m1n1m4[m]>
j`ey: WOW...
<sven>
apple only cares about macos because that's what makes them money
<sven>
if you look at it through that perspective + their design (and security) goals all this makes perfect sense
<Sobek[m]>
m1n1m4[m]: Not only did they not lock the bootloader, they actually designed it so that something like asahi be possible (extra efforts), and even added small features that help asahi (raw image after making breaking change to the Mach-O boot protocol, bless support, etc).
<m1n1m4[m]>
Sobek[m]: WOW, that might lead to a perspective change in the future no?
<sven>
why?
<sven>
adding external boot support increases the attack surface for ~no gain from their perspective
<m1n1m4[m]>
sven: because if they want to really compete with wintel they have to leave space for linux
<sven>
why?
<m1n1m4[m]>
* with wintel on desktop they have
<sven>
anyway, this is also getting off-topic and i should get back to $work
<m1n1m4[m]>
sven: yes, thanks but we might be surprised...
<Sobek[m]>
The lack of straight from external device boot make the bootloader code extremely simpler. For what it is worth, a mac mini / studio whose internal drive has been wiped is only able to communicate with the external world using the led colour and blink (Amber + morse SOS blinking), and getting a recovery software blob (signed by apple) through USB recovery. The attack surface is quite small. And once the bootloader first stage is on the internal
<Sobek[m]>
drive, having the second stages be on the drive two doesn't change much the equation, and allows configs to have their integrity checked pretty easily, and the first iBoot stage is simpler too.
<victorhooi[m]>
Sobek: got it - so you think Apple not allowing direct external boot is for security reasons?
<victorhooi[m]>
hence - it'd be unlikely they'd allow it in the future?
<Sobek[m]>
The whole design is pretty much with security in mind. See what marcan said about its security
<m1n1m4[m]>
Sobek[m]: in the wiki?
<mps>
Sobek[m]: strange idea of security by cutting out usability. I would rather call this 'lock in'
<Sobek[m]>
Your usual evil maid from the SDECE or whatever secret service is after you won't be able to install a rootkit simply with physical access. Managing boot security actually requires both physical access (physical button press to get in 1TR), and an owner password. I haven't done any external boot of standard macOS stuff so I don't known if that can be set-up without password, but anything that involves downgrading security will require a
<Sobek[m]>
Security and usability have always been kind of at odds. Yet apple made something where the proper owner (and only them), can pretty much boot any code they want. It requires them to do a few things to get there, but it is completely doable, that's what marcan has been doing here actually. m1n1 is a big example of running code kind of unfettered.
<mps>
Sobek[m]: if you are target of security service you don't have chances
<Sobek[m]>
Well, if they hit me with a wrench, I know I've been compromised at least
<Sobek[m]>
<m1n1m4[m]> "in the wiki?" <- Yes in the Wiki, where he describes the Apple Silicon boot process.
<m1n1m4[m]>
Sobek[m]: yep things are pretty much in the dark nowadays, even on the news you get "sink holes" ...
<mps>
this solution around is just security theater, to lock users and extract money from them
<victorhooi[m]>
hmm ok - is all this external boot limitations documented in the wiki somewhere?
<m1n1m4[m]>
m1n1m4[m]: "specially crafted"
<victorhooi[m]>
and the explanations about security for it?
<Sobek[m]>
mps: Usually there are way too many ways we humans fail at opsec, that they don't need to actually go break the boot security to get where they want, but at least that's going to make them work more than stupid Lenovo rootkit certificates etc.
<m1n1m4[m]>
mps: Well, if you consider there are businesses that sell "keys" to states particularly for apple ecosystem like nso group... They literally built an OS inside a "load" to wreck iphone into noclick
<mps>
Sobek[m]: if you want to discuss this subject more we could join #asahi-offtopic
<m1n1m4[m]>
mps: How to i get there?
<Sobek[m]>
Same way you got here, but with -offtopic added to the name of the channel right after #asahi ;)
<mps>
/join #asahi-offtopic in irc client
<victorhooi[m]>
hmm ok - so for the ceph on M1 use case
<victorhooi[m]>
it seems like there's no way around it
<victorhooi[m]>
the internal drive in the Mac M1 will still need ot have special apple partitions on it - hence we cannot pass through the raw device
<m1n1m4[m]>
Sobek[m]: i got there with a click on the community page of asahi
<m1n1m4[m]>
* of asahi. Let me look at the link...
<m1n1m4[m]>
* i got here with a click on the community page of asahi. Let me look at the link...
<j`ey>
victorhooi[m]: seems so
<victorhooi[m]>
fair enough - at least now I know
<victorhooi[m]>
aha
<victorhooi[m]>
ok, will need to figure out a way to do this with partitions then
<victorhooi[m]>
have a lot of people tried k3s on asahi linux?
<victorhooi[m]>
so the ceph-volume tool relies on LVM
<victorhooi[m]>
which I assume isn't supported on asahi, rihgt?
<victorhooi[m]>
I'm guessing that apple has their own partition format and all that?
<j`ey>
I think people have used LVM
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<victorhooi[m]>
oh - LVM can work with M1/Asahi?
<victorhooi[m]>
how?
<milek7>
why wouldn't it? you just create ordinary gpt partition
<Glanzmann>
/clear/clear
<victorhooi[m]>
ah right - apple just uses GPT these days?
<victorhooi[m]>
there's no weird quirks due to it being apple/mac?
<victorhooi[m]>
sorry I didn't realise - but you're saying it should be the same as any other windows/linux GPT partitioning then?
<j`ey>
yep since all the usual fdisk etc Just Work
<victorhooi[m]>
ok - but I think somebody mentioned above
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<victorhooi[m]>
there's some special system partition that is needed for m1 boot, right
<victorhooi[m]>
?
<victorhooi[m]>
I just need to to leave that one partition alone?
<j`ey>
it's just a normal partition
<j`ey>
with special contents
<victorhooi[m]>
anything else to keep in mind here, if I'm playing around with the partition table on an m1
<j`ey>
dont touch the first and last partitions
<milek7>
somebody said that you should keep gpt entries sorted otherwise macos diskutil could be confused
<j`ey>
it renumbers them, so you have to pay attention to the numbers
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<tpw_rules>
it will list them wrong if they are not sorted
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<marcan>
yes, just keep them sorted to avoid confusing it
<david_>
hi, I ran the script on my 2020 mac mini (m1) and when it boots I can tell that the machine is on (mouse light is on), but nothing is coming out of the HDMI
<david_>
I never even got the Asahi set up screen or anything, I just got to the boot security disabling bit
<david_>
anyone have any ideas? thanks in advance, this looks like a really cool project :)
<tpw_rules>
try a different monitor if you have one
<PthariensFlame[m]>
It’s pretty direct confirmation that M2 will be A15 cores, but not identical sysregs for some reason?
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<opticron>
PthariensFlame[m], they yanked it already
<opticron>
redacted
<Sobek[m]>
Has anyone managed to archive it ?
<jannau>
Glanzmann: display_fb_alloc2 - main reason why it's not submitted is that hv/macos panic immediately on boot
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<PthariensFlame[m]>
Welp,
<PthariensFlame[m]>
IIRC it said something like "Use Staten for A15/H14 targets because it has the same core designs but a few more sysregs.", and the commit information was already gone before, just the message was there.
<Sobek[m]>
H14 ? What's that ?
<Sobek[m]>
Staten is the code name for M2 isn't it ?
<PthariensFlame[m]>
It is.
<PthariensFlame[m]>
We already know H14 is the internal codename for the entire A15/M2 family, like H13 is for A14/M1.
<Sobek[m]>
Ah. Hmm but why H = A-1 ? Did they start with H0 ? Or did those code name start at another point ?
<PthariensFlame[m]>
Didn't find it in any archives; oh well.
<sven>
wasn’t it because the iphone4 should have the a4?
<PthariensFlame[m]>
The information was relatively minimal.
<j`ey>
PthariensFlame[m]: how did you find it at all? the commit was from 2020
<jannau>
hmm, I still saw te commit message but the commit was already gone. I assumed it was just a leftover since the date is 2020-11-12
<PthariensFlame[m]>
I randomly searched for A15 in the LLVM Phabricator, on a whim.
<PthariensFlame[m]>
It came up in that search pretty directly at the time.
<Sobek[m]>
I wonder if a. You were very lucky to be in a very short time frame where this think had been mistakenly pushed and yanked or b. The thing got pulled just after you saw it by sheer unluck after being there for a while ?
<PthariensFlame[m]>
Hard to say!
<PthariensFlame[m]>
Can't have been that tight a window because I first spotted this commit days ago.
<zv>
perhaps people in high places lurk here
<j`ey>
but only linked it here just now :)
<PthariensFlame[m]>
Aye.
<PthariensFlame[m]>
I sadly didn't think to until this morning.
<PthariensFlame[m]>
When I submitted it, I double-checked right then to make sure it was still up.
<Glanzmann>
jannau: Thank you.
<PthariensFlame[m]>
So it got yanked in the period between me sending and anyone looking.
<j`ey>
i saw the commit message
<Sobek[m]>
Perhaps one apple person lurking here saw it and got it yanked within an hour. Does it seem that bad ? Perhaps apple has its opsec team keeping an eye on us ?
<zv>
same
<sven>
I’m pretty sure there are apple people lurking in here ;)
* sven
waves
<Sobek[m]>
Well yes, but them lurking hear doesn't necessarily mean they snitched and got that commit removed.
<PthariensFlame[m]>
I mean it did have a user id of someone who might not want to have association with apple broadly published? 🤷
<Sobek[m]>
A15 got released in to teh general public in september 2021, so roughly a year before it got out, they were updating compilers to support the target. probably a point where engineering samples for A15 might have been used for prototypes and testing stuff ?
<PthariensFlame[m]>
The thing is, LLVM (public version) still doesn't have any A15 target.
<PthariensFlame[m]>
That's the primary reason I was searching in the first place—to see if there was any progress.
<Sobek[m]>
wait, that's in spite of A15 being out and a supported target for Apple LLVM ?
<PthariensFlame[m]>
Yes.
<Sobek[m]>
Or even apple LLVM doesn't have support for A15 ?
<PthariensFlame[m]>
Don't know; all that's confirmable is that open-source LLVM only goes up to M1.
<j`ey>
PthariensFlame[m]: its no secret that t northover works for apple
<PthariensFlame[m]>
j`ey: Oh, okay. Scratch that supposition, then.
<Sobek[m]>
M1 Max / Ultra included or some M1Pro/Max/Ultra bits are missing too ?
<j`ey>
PthariensFlame[m]: I used to sit opposite him for a bit! (at a different company)
<PthariensFlame[m]>
Sobek[m]: Everything's bundled under the same M1 target, because they're identical from the perspective of CPU targets.
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<PthariensFlame[m]>
Compiling for Firestorm.Icestorm is gonna be the same no matter how many of each there are, and the compiler doesn't care what peripherals are around.
<Sobek[m]>
It look like the branch for A15 support and M2 support was like mixed up in a way it shouldn't have. Perhaps next time round they'll do stuff in a way such that they can release A16 first and then push the M3-A16 diff later ?
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<buildingsteam[m]>
hey, I'm david_ from earlier, joined on Matrix because I don't know IRC. Managed to get my monitor to work by making sure it wasn't asleep by spamming the menu button during boot :P
<tpw_rules>
cool
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