<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] 778706215d46 - app_server: Drop gfxcpy and implement some TODOs about checking for graphics memory.
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<kallisti5[m]>
legendaryamerican: I don't 100% understand the issue mentioned.. "It's dangerous to run open wifi"
<kallisti5[m]>
is it crashing when using WPA2 or something?
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<LegendaryAmerican>
Basically these laptops cannot run wpa pages won't load etc. Several kinds wifi adapters. Turn wpa off on the router and run no security haiku connects fully. Blacklisting the beta 3 drivers and running the beta 2 drivers in their place kicks it to kdl on boot. Was doing kdl from the preflet on the 3/2 swapout
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<waddlesplash>
on an off topic note, DUNE is great. just saw it, in IMAX no less. worth the ticket
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<skirst>
waddlesplash, watched it last night. i thought so as well
<waddlesplash>
hopefully it does well enough that we get the second half
<skirst>
imdb says it's in pre-production. let's hope!
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<Begasus>
g'morning peeps
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<WishBoy>
Begasus good morning dad
<Begasus>
dad? :)
<Begasus>
g'morning WishBoy
<WishBoy>
Begasus my virtual dad
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<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] 393c7b8b5cc9 - Update translations from Pootle
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<nephele>
the pinephone pro looks interesting, i wonder if any OS has pulled of running a "normal" desktop on the displayport second screen
<nephele>
that would be what i want tbh, have a phone that does phone stuff, and if i plug in a screen i get my normal desktop
<Niklas[m]>
Sure,you can even install the desktop version of KDE Plasma if you want to.It's running a full-blown Desktop Linux distro.
<Niklas[m]>
I own a PinePhone CE and it really feels more like a desktop computer than a phone actually.
<nephele>
full-blown isn't neccesarily a good thing :P, and i didn't mean that in a "use it as a replacement for a rpi desktop" but rather something that allows applications to keep data intact and present a normal desktop
<nephele>
... without making the "normal" desktop apps some mobile bs hybrid
<Niklas[m]>
That should work as well.
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<nephele>
anyway, are there real specs for these devices? the blog post mentions there are specs on the pinephone pro site but it only sais roughly what the names of the components are...
<HaikuUser2>
so pissed off
<HaikuUser2>
just bought the regular pinephone a month ago
<nephele>
If that is "all" the details I'll take that as a big no for "has specs available"
<Niklas[m]>
I'm happy that I took the PinePhone CE because $399 for a phone is just too expensive.
<HaikuUser2>
i dont mind spending $400 since $400 for a usable device is better than $200 for a non-usable device
<HaikuUser2>
then again, i havent experimented with it too much
<Niklas[m]>
Which information exactly are you looking for?Maybe I can find something
<Niklas[m]>
Yeah,the normal PinePhone is barely usable for everyday activity.It's only laying around and instead I use my emporiaTOUCHsmart :/
<HaikuUser2>
such a shame, really
<nephele>
Stuff like, how does the device boot, what exact cpu arch is it running, how is the gpu connected, how does the gpu work... how one would write drivers for it
<nephele>
PulkoMandy: PDA... I still have a PSION pda, and their contacts "list" is easier to use than Haikus :D
<HaikuUser2>
that actually has a real keyboard!
<nephele>
atleast, i think it is much easier to enter stuff there, i suppose it is how the text field there works (and i can just adhoc add a new line without having to figure out how to change the "People" filetype to add new fields...)
<nephele>
HaikuUser2: i think the pinephone also has an addon keyboard?
<Niklas[m]>
These PlanetCom devices look really good,but too expensive for me.
<HaikuUser2>
dunno about addon keyboard, but it has the dongle
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<Niklas[m]>
The addon keyboard was announced shortly after the original Pinephone but it's still not finished.
<Niklas[m]>
It will also provide a much bigger battery so it solves all my problems at once.I'll get one as soon as it's available.
<nephele>
My phone has a third the battery of the pinephone pro and lasts the entire day
<Niklas[m]>
The hardware of the PinePhone isn't really meant to be used in phones,therefore the energy efficiency is absolutely a desaster.
<HaikuUser2>
was also considering the wingpd2 that ripped off the pyra/pandora that never released
<nephele>
The main power draws on phones is the screen usually
<nephele>
if you can make the screen just a little brighter and a little bit lower resolution you can get a much better battery life already, usually anyhow
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<Niklas[m]>
I have the normal GPD Win (not 2) and I really like it.It's a nice little laptop.But it's too big and weights too much to be used as a phone.And it doesn't support mobile connections,only Wifi.
<HaikuUser2>
damn
<HaikuUser2>
i could probably do without the mobile data anyway
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<HaikuUser2>
so it doesnt fit in your pocket?
<Niklas[m]>
The PinePhone was 99% in standby and still the battery didn't last for the day.I always had to shut it down completely but that isn't a comfortable solution.
<Niklas[m]>
It does fit but it doesn't feel good.
<nephele>
"real" phones do kind of shutdown when you turn off the screen
<Niklas[m]>
They still listen to internet activity to send notifications and ring when a call comes in.
<nephele>
in android 8 they started to consolidate background services to only be able to run in specific timeframes, and then all at once, instead of waking the processor up for each service individually
<Niklas[m]>
Well,the optimization of Android is a bit too extreme.I always disable battery optimization to make sure that notifications arrive,still the battery lasts much longer than in the PinePhone.
<nephele>
This has nothing to do with "battery optimization" :D
<Niklas[m]>
It has
<nephele>
that is usually just insane manufacturers who whitelist specific applications to run more often and kill other applications
<nephele>
I don't think so, the mechanism i mean has no way to be turned off in android
<nephele>
and it should work just fine
<nephele>
(The chat app Threema i use for example has had troubles with these whitelists, because it isn't on them for many manufacturers... )
<Niklas[m]>
If you don't disable battery optimization,it kills Element in the background and you don't get notifications anymore.It's not exactly the mechanism you mention,but I'm talking about battery optimization in Android in general.It's way too aggressive and still the battery doesn't last as long as in my good old Nokia lol
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<nephele>
>If you don't disable battery optimization,it kills Element in the background
<nephele>
as i said, insane manufacturers
<nephele>
android vanilla, afaik, does not do this
<Niklas[m]>
I think it does as well.They want to force everyone to use Google Firebase bullshit but I uninstalled that.
<nephele>
No... Android AOSP does not even have google firebase
<Niklas[m]>
With vanilla Android I understand something like on the Pixel phones.AOSP is again something else that works without all the proprietary bits.
<nephele>
No... Android AOSP is literally "upstream"
<nephele>
If you want something close to it you should use LineageOS or something :)
<nephele>
Android on the pixel phones is most definetely the version google wants, yes
<Niklas[m]>
And maybe you're right about the situation on AOSP.I could never test that because stupid manufacturers violate the GPL and don't open their kernel source so that custom ROMs are impossible to create for many phones.
<nephele>
It's just as proprietary as the one samsung ships, just with a worse UI ;)
<nephele>
Have you heard of "in-kernel-abi-stabilization"?
<nephele>
It's what they are working on, mostly for android, basically.. you stabilize the in-kernel abi, then you can have abi-compatible drivers that are not GPLed
<nephele>
and voila, you aren't violating the gpl by loading those
<nephele>
also means you can upgrade the kernel in place without having to port the drivers, which is likely the main benefit of it, but still.
<Niklas[m]>
So that means that the current situation with manufacturers not providing the source so that you can't create custom ROMs finally becomes legal and nothing will ever improve about the situation?Well,smartphones suck.
<nephele>
There are custom roms for many phones precisely because the kernels were "dumped", but the manufacturers source code sucks and can't be upstreamed usually, i think the problem here is more the planned obsolesence part.. nobody cares to support CheapManufacturer Nr3's AstraPhone version 12 AB
<nephele>
That phone is broken in 2 years anyway, and the hardware sucks too ;)
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<Niklas[m]>
You're right about most cheap noname phones but I do care to get a custom ROM for my internet radio (which runs Android,no source and no custom ROMs available) or for the Unihertz Titan,which is actually a Blackberry clone with a open bootloader and I'd instantly order it if I could get a replacement for the vendor Android.
<nephele>
Pinephone really is a light at the end of the tunnel in this situation, I am tempted to want to run haiku (atleast in a attached desktop mode) on such a device
<nephele>
perhaps on the pinetab
<nephele>
Niklas: for severall phones lineageos builds are availabe, sometimes only unoffical ones
<nephele>
that is sometimes an option
<nephele>
I have a galaxy S5 that runs lineageos
<HaikuUser2>
somehow, im not sure haiku would work well on a phone unless you just want portable haiku
<Niklas[m]>
Samsung devices are well supported but others often aren't ;)
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<nephele>
(Although, I'm mainly using an iPhone, among other reasons because the android AOSP UI is utter garbage imo)
<HaikuUser2>
maybe haiku on rpi would be nice, but im not much of an rpi user anyway
<nephele>
(so if the choice is propritary garbage #1 or #2, might aswell pick the option that screws over google services)
<Niklas[m]>
Try to find a ROM for the Archos Hello 10 (ac101hello) or the Unihertz Titan for me if you think that works.I wasted hours without results.
<nephele>
HaikuUser2: I wouldn't want to run the Haiku UI on a phone indeed, but perhaps either run a "linux" phone distro, and run haiku in qemu for the attached display
<nephele>
or make a haiku api for alternative views for haiku applications for a touch interface
<Niklas[m]>
Haiku UI on a tablet could be nice if it gets a on-screen keyboard.
<HaikuUser2>
maybe like pressing the menu button to see the sidebar listing
<Niklas[m]>
I tried it on my pretty small laptop with touchscreen already and it was quite usable,except that the touchscreen only works in QEMU and not natively.
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<nephele>
Haiku desktop UI on a tablet would be terrible
<HaikuUser2>
and pressing the menu button could show the leaf menu
<HaikuUser2>
now that i think about it, haiku could be really doable on a phone
<HaikuUser2>
except for hardware support
<nephele>
/if/ there is a port of haiku on mobile phones i would think this mandates applications to have a second "main" view that is launched instead, one that works for touch interfaces
<nephele>
The normal Haiku UI will not work on touch interfaces, and it shouldn't imo
<HaikuUser2>
aww crap
<HaikuUser2>
gg
<HaikuUser2>
well screw phones anyway
<Niklas[m]>
Sorry,but I hope that there'll never be Haiku for phones.
<nephele>
I am annoyed that isn't a "haiku for phones"
<HaikuUser2>
i wouldnt say im against a haikuphone, but yeah, focus on desktop for now
<nephele>
No project that sais "we want to support phones and those only, and make a great UI for them"
<Niklas[m]>
Every desktop environment that tried to port it to phones totally ruined the desktop experience.
<HaikuUser2>
thats true
<nephele>
instead of the multi-track drifting of many linux distros
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<BrunoSpr>
hey all...
<nephele>
Niklas: If there is a phone port of haiku, I would definetely want it to be like iOS, in the sense that many parts of the API are shared, but the UI is not neccesarily (maybe UI controls, but not the UI layout and such as is)
<nephele>
Hi BrunoSpr
<Niklas[m]>
First M$ totally screwed Windows 8 to make it look good on phones but then it was horrible on desktop computers,then GNOME made their touch UI which is plain awful on a big screen while GNOME 2 was quite acceptable to use and now even KDE starts with making everything larger and "simpler" with less advanced features to make it look better on phones.
<Niklas[m]>
Haiku is literally the last thing I can use if I really want a desktop computer,not a phone with a mouse and a too large screen lol
<HaikuUser2>
yeah, screw gnome
<HaikuUser2>
was always bloated anyway even back in the GTK2 days
<Niklas[m]>
I mean I never liked GNOME but the transition from GNOME 2 to 3 was as good as the move from Win 7 to Win 8.
<nephele>
haha... i had a much better move
<nephele>
from gnome2 to unity
<nephele>
which made me deinstall ubuntu and use windows 7 full time again for a couple of years...
<nephele>
(because i didn't understand how my computer worked anymore)
<Niklas[m]>
Unity isn't great either but I think GNOME 3 is even worse.
<HaikuUser2>
ugh, to think linux would come to this
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<nephele>
Niklas: perhaps, but from a users perspective, beeing asked to do a "routine" update and then suddenly nothign working anymore certainly left a sour taste in my mouth
<nephele>
Doesn't really matter whether unity was any better than gnome2 or not :g
<Niklas[m]>
I totally agree.
<Niklas[m]>
Ubuntu also left some really bad memorys for me.It was a routine update that totally ruined my OS.Desktop icons disappeared,I had no rights to access any files anymore and after rebooting,it didn't accept my password anymore.
<skirst>
what about enlightenment? rocked e back in the day. loved that de
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<HaikuUser2>
i love e16
<HaikuUser2>
i still use it occasionally
<Niklas[m]>
I use Enlightenment on my laptop.It's really cool and it works good with touchscreens.
<skirst>
i remember making blinged out themes for it in the 2000's :D
<HaikuUser2>
lol thats what i remember best
<pinaraf>
so, I understand this is 90s desktop remembering/depression time ? :)
<skirst>
the best
<HaikuUser2>
well this IS the haiku channel
<skirst>
pinaraf, nostalgia would be a better word :)
<Niklas[m]>
I like Enlightenments current default theme.It's dark with light blue and it still has gradients,not an awful flat design :D
<pinaraf>
well, when you look at "modern" design, it's really depression imho :)
<HaikuUser2>
beyond depressing
<HaikuUser2>
its just clones of win8/osx
<skirst>
Niklas[m], and still has that bling without being too anoying
<Niklas[m]>
Yep
<skirst>
it's the modern retro desktop no one knows about these days. shame
<HaikuUser2>
probably cause e17
<HaikuUser2>
which i dont like at all
<Niklas[m]>
Well,it's not that retro anymore...
<Niklas[m]>
If I really want a retro desktop on Linux,I'd choose Trinity.
<HaikuUser2>
never heard of that
<Niklas[m]>
It's a fork of KDE 3 which is still active.
<skirst>
i've been with KDE since the 1.x days. i appreciate it. it was always me prefered desktop after 4.x smoothed out
<HaikuUser2>
was there a similar fork for XFCE? i wanted to try the CDE style
<Niklas[m]>
Xfce is also not bad but since GNOME ruined most GTK applications by making them "simpler" and basically without any advanced features,I really prefer Qt based stuff.
<HaikuUser2>
KDE was always too slow for me, even back then
<HaikuUser2>
do you mean GTK3?
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<Niklas[m]>
GTK3 itself isn't that bad but the "modern" GTK3 based applications which are optimized only for touch are.That trend started long after GTK3 itself.
<HaikuUser2>
oh. yeah i hated that too
<Niklas[m]>
The main problem are the current GNOME HIG.It's still possible to create useful GTK based user interfaces but most people don't.
<skirst>
margin: 100px;
<skirst>
for your fat fingers :)
<jezek2>
I liked GTK1 and it's file selector when used with the tab key to filter things out it was really efficient (also no waiting for icons to load)
<skirst>
old school. yeah GTK1 was nice
<jezek2>
(and also KDE1-3)
<jezek2>
and generally to me most of the software from the last decade or so is quite bad, to the point that the old versions are actually better (having too much features is also a disadvantage :D)
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<skirst>
it's the dependancy avalanche. if you only need the wheel, why buy an entire car? actually write code.
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<countryboy>
hello
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<nephele>
skirst: i like enlightenment, but i can't really use it because of it's input latency :/
<nephele>
I have heard that "deepin linux" is supposed to be a user-friendly interface, kind of want to try that out at some point
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<nephele>
jezek2: I think A/B testing is also to blame for that :D
<nephele>
Say, if your app has a menu that is slightly broken and used less because of it A/B testing will have you remove the menu instead of fixing it up and such
<Niklas[m]>
I used Deepin for a long time.The interface is really quite good but it was buggy as hell.Often after upgrading the desktop didn't start anymore so I had to downgrade individual packages or just wait a few days for it to get fixed.And the performance was a desaster.I wouldn't use it anymore.I does nothing that KDE can't do as well.
<nephele>
KDE with less options would be nice :)
<jezek2>
yeah the whole metrics thing is just wrong (and I'm not even talking about the spyware aspect of it), the idea to create products that are based on actual usage vs what the user wants (but may ultimately not use) - the problem is that the user is deciding to use the software with the latter in mind
<countryboy>
KDE with troll tech libraries ...
<Niklas[m]>
If you don't have a problem with it being based on GTK,Cinnamon is also quite good and its interface is similar to KDE.
<jezek2>
maybe the feature is to be used only in disaster recovery scenario, or other scenarios that can occur but they won't in the end
<jezek2>
or just some of them
<nephele>
Niklas: I like qt a bit more than gtk usually, my main problem with KDE is really it's too far on the side of too many options for my taste, while GNOME is way too far on the side of no options
<jezek2>
also the human tendency of rounding to 1% to cutoff things even when that 1% can be 100k or million of users ;)
<nephele>
I think Haiku has a nice middle ground actually, could use some more options, but generally you have options that are impactfull, and not so many of the "what is this even supposed to do???"
<nephele>
(LIke for example: In KDE (not sure if its still there) for hot corners Activation delay in ms, reactivation delay in ms... instead of having it "just work")
<Niklas[m]>
I totally agree.That's why I like Haiku the most.
<skirst>
deepin wikipedia: The distribution began in 2004 as Hiweed Linux. I can TOTALLY relate lol
<countryboy>
Qt = Quasar Technologies ...
<nephele>
Same with the mouse acceleration stuff in KDE, maybe a slider, cool. maybe even a nice graph... buuuut in KDE the current stuff is just so much severall boxes with options, no clue what any of them do
<Niklas[m]>
In Haiku the mouse acceleration settings are quite complicated as well
<nephele>
Not sure, i have never used them, but if they are we might be able to improve them
<Niklas[m]>
I had a problem with the mouse speed some day (I think it was too slow) and some settings didn't have an effect at all and in the end,my mouse was faster but always skipped some pixels what wasn't that nice to use.
<nephele>
although... currently it's a bit of a pickle that we have global "per-pointer" settings in the mouse or touchpad specific panels, and not in a higher menu... for example the window focus mode is a global setting, not specific to each mosue you plug in
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<skirst>
i only need to adjust haiku mouse accel when using a VM. on metal the defaults are perfect for my system
<pinaraf>
I've got a question regarding Haiku, esp the kernel : is there any generic screen backlight management? like in the linux kernel where drivers can match proprietary ACPI stupidity to a standardized API, that is then used in userspace
<HaikuUser2>
i dont use mouse acceleration. usually causes problems with games
<Begasus>
bbl
<nephele>
I use a trackball, it has a build in deceleration and acceleration kinda, so that's probably why i never mess with this stuff (And for my wacom tablet it's just 1:1 absolute pointing)
<nephele>
pinaraf: The accelerants can provide a call to set the screen brighness
<nephele>
This is done for i think intel_extreme and for vesa, but the latter isn't really used ?
<nephele>
I have a (broken) WIP patch for radeon but i have no devices to test this with :/
<pinaraf>
nephele: hum, but can non-accelerant provide that too? for instance on a laptop you may have a whatever GPU, but the screen backlight is managed by some shitty ACPI/WMI calls ?
<Niklas[m]>
The default mouse settings are really good in most setups but I have one laptop combined with one mouse where it just totally sucks and I need to make it faster.If I use another mouse or the same mouse with another laptop,then the defaults are correct again.
<skirst>
yeah i would love to have a red-shift night-time screen mode for haiku. that would be awesome.
<nephele>
pinaraf: accelerant is just what that piece of code is called that drives the display in haiku :)
<pinaraf>
ok, thought it was only for the GPU itself
<nephele>
I think they are actually for the part that does the video out, which on normal computers is always in the gpu? but i'm not sure
<julicenri>
Personally I've settled on KDE from phone to desktop.
<nephele>
maybe another dev can give you a more detailed answer on the design :)
<nephele>
maybe kallisti5 or pulkomandy
<pinaraf>
nephele: well, laptops are terrifying monstruosity where normal means something completely different :)
<nephele>
skirst: this call is only for backlight, as in LED backlight, not any gamma correction :g
<julicenri>
KDE software also makes up a fair number of applications in HaikuDepot, too.
<skirst>
nephele, apologies, seemed related.
<PulkoMandy>
no driver for ACPI brightness yet, it should be trivial to add one
<nephele>
skirst: it certainly is related, just wanted to mention that this particular call won't acomplish a night shift mode :)
<PulkoMandy>
I added brightness support to accelerants because that made it easy to implement the hardware specific version for Intel devices and expose it in the BScreen API
<PulkoMandy>
I'm happy if someone removes this or complements it with the ACPI way
<julicenri>
Huh, my netbook's screen brightness can be adjusted in Haiku.
<nephele>
there is already a ticket for night shift and such, i imagine we will tackle this when we do screen color calibration aswell?
<PulkoMandy>
as far as I know the ACPI thing is well standardized, writing the driver shouldn't be very hard but... no one did it :(
<PulkoMandy>
julicenri, if you are lucky to have one of the Intel cards for which I wrote a driver, yes
<julicenri>
Um, the netbook uses an AMD iGPU.
<julicenri>
TeraScale-based
<julicenri>
It works when using the screen brightness keys on the keyboard.
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<pinaraf>
PulkoMandy: it's standardized except for computers where it isn't… there are so many linux kernel backlight driver…
<PulkoMandy>
let's start with the standardized one and see about the others later
<PulkoMandy>
and use the power of C++ to factorize code a lot more than Linux
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<PulkoMandy>
for example Linux has 5 or so drivers for USB serial adapters. We have a single driver that implements all of them, just with a few C++ classes and subclasses
<PulkoMandy>
it will probably be similar for brightness controls
<nephele>
juliencenri: if its only keyboard keys, but not in preferences/Screen it's your BIOS supporting those
<PulkoMandy>
actually we have a driver for some keyboard backlights through WMI too? korli wrote that one
<pinaraf>
PulkoMandy: yes, found it, for Asus WMI
<nephele>
Could be, but we definetely don't support any keyboard keys to let that be adjusted :3
<PulkoMandy>
aren't you the one working on improving the keymap forlat? :)
<nephele>
"working" is a nice word for a patch series i haven't touched in over a year :D
<PulkoMandy>
I have patch series older than that :>
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<julicenri>
nephele: Just checked, there's no screen brightness setting in Screen.
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<nephele>
Well, for radeon I do have a wip patch that is certainly broken, if you want you can try to make it work ;)
<nephele>
Assuming your laptop even uses that api
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<nephele>
PulkoMandy: Maybe i should try to finish that, I did learn a lot about the haiku api since starting that patch :)
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<nephele>
Niklas: postmarketOS wiki sais that it runs on my galaxy s5... maybe i can try plasma mobile
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<nephele>
oh... it also sais plasma mobile crashes it
<Niklas[m]>
If the system itself works,you can try finding a desktop that works later.There's also Phosh (Gnome),Unity (Ubuntu Touch) and the UI from Sailfish OS (but that's proprietary,don't know if it's available for every device)
<nephele>
Sailfish OS isn't postmarketOS :)
<nephele>
well, if the wiki sais the gpu can't run it currently i'll hold off, though it seems some are working on it
<Niklas[m]>
Their UI has been ported to other distributions as far as I know
<nephele>
Doesn't make it any better *shrug*
<nephele>
I do like that sailfish has dedicated applications though, ones that don't try to be desktop hybrid apps :)
<Niklas[m]>
I like that,too.
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<pinaraf>
sailfish os has, IMHO, one major issue : they don't want to upgrade their Qt because they fear the LGPL3 license
<pinaraf>
they thus can not upgrade other components/libraries, they have to reinvent things that are in more modern Qt versions, making applications incompatible between sailfish os and other platforms
<nephele>
wouldn't be the first OS to ship ancient versions because of fear of some l?gpl version ;)
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<pinaraf>
wouldn't be, but still a major pain for upstream if we want to be nice to them
<PulkoMandy>
they are not the only ones complaining about lgpl3 in Qt. We are investigating possible replacements for some of our customers at my paid job too
* nephele
assumes EFL would be the next choise
<PulkoMandy>
they already rejected that too, I think because the API is unstable and generally not as nice to work with
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<PulkoMandy>
otherwise, yes, we wouldn't be studying options :)
<Niklas[m]>
I think the LGPL was a quite good choice of Qt.It makes sure that the open source library can't be abused for proprietary crap.If it causes problems at paid jobs,I guess that's exactly what the LGPL license should do.
<Niklas[m]>
Sailfish could easily solve the problem by open sourcing their code.
<nephele>
I dunno, i feel like the end result is the same, just that your software isn't used and people were paid to do useless work again
<PulkoMandy>
the company who currently owns Qt does a good job of misrepresenting the license too, and scaring people off it in the hope that they will buy the commercial version
<PulkoMandy>
it turns out people rather react with "whoa it looks like this Qt thing is entangled in pretty crappy legal stuff, we'd rather stay out of it"
<nephele>
I gues that is analogous of apple not wanting the gpl3 and then started to trow out all gpl2 code aswell
<nephele>
so... the end result there is now /less/ code apple puts in their source releases, not sure if this is the outcome that is the better one tbh
<Niklas[m]>
I see the proprietary license as a big problem,too,what is a reason why I wouldn't want to write Qt applications.But the problem isn't a free software license but the company doing shit.
<PulkoMandy>
well they're trying to get some money back from their work on Qt, I can't really blame them for that
<PulkoMandy>
but people and companies prefer to use the free version and complain that no one is fixing their bugs :)
<PulkoMandy>
yes it would be nice to have some public domain thing instead of Qt but... someone has to pay for it. Or you can rely on crazy people like us who work on haiku for free on their weekends and nights
<PulkoMandy>
not the kind of thing I'd trust for a commercial project, right?
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<Niklas[m]>
To stay at your Haiku example: I'd rather use Haiku in a company than Windows.Yes,it's only a hobby project but it's much more stable and doesn't violate the GDPR.
<nephele>
much more stable? it really depends tbh
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<Niklas[m]>
For a graphical application,I'd probably choose EFL or GTK (but without taking care of GNOMEs stupid touch HIG)
<nephele>
The type of network deployment that is common with windows setups in companies is for example something that just doesn't work with haiku in it's current state
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<PulkoMandy>
even I wouldn't use Haiku in company projects :> (but we don't do Windows either)
<HaikuUser2>
i wouldnt mind using haiku at work, its just that i already use linux
<HaikuUser2>
slack would be a pain to deal with though
<nephele>
I use haiku for my personal stuff indeed, but at work i don't use any computers whatsoever :3
<HaikuUser2>
my condolences
<nephele>
There is a computer i could use for specific tasks, I've already used that like ... twice or maybe three times in one and a half years
<nephele>
HaikuUser2: I dunno, i don't want a job that involves me having to use a computer all day
<Niklas[m]>
I don't have that much to do with computers,too.Only the PoS terminals,but the application on it is some Java stuff that would probably run on Linux as well.
<HaikuUser2>
i guess if thats what you want, then its all good
<HaikuUser2>
personally, i cant stand working without a computer. its so boring
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<Niklas[m]>
Oh it never gets boring if you have to deal with customers lol
<nephele>
I wanted to go into IT first since people told me "you do computers you should work in IT", but i tried it and found out that having to programm a computer to do mundane work isn't what i want to do for a job
<nephele>
And also I'd think that programming stops beeing my hobby then, but i'd rather continue this hobby ;)
<HaikuUser2>
brother said the same thing about being a car mechanic
<Niklas[m]>
I think exactly the same.That was my reason to decide against an IT job
<HaikuUser2>
but computers are my skill so if i did quit IT, then what else could i do?
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<HaikuUser2>
there's nothing else id rather do as a job
<HaikuUser2>
just sucks i get paid so little
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<nephele>
If it's your "calling" that is excelent, but IT is a big field, and i think the majority of jobs there are boring grunt work ;)
<HaikuUser2>
what kinda grunt work? code monkey stuff?
<nephele>
I had an internship for one IT company and they asked me to as an exercise write a SOAP client in C#, i assumed that ment... i should write a SOAP client in C#, what they ment was "download these nuget packages and fire that one request"
<nephele>
HaikuUser2: yeah pretty much
<HaikuUser2>
ewww
<PulkoMandy>
it's never the right answer, right?
<PulkoMandy>
I think it was someone from here who interviewed at google, they were asked "print a file backwards (last line first) using shell commands" and they just used tac, which does exactly that
<PulkoMandy>
apparently that was not the expected answer and they expected some complicated thing using sed or awk or whatever
<HaikuUser2>
havent had too many issues with people asking for things when they really want something else
<nephele>
I learned to heavily dislike C# XML libraries though, so maybe that internship was good for that, I was really baffled that the library would bark out errors when i was trying to access xml members inside an xml namespace, but without specifying the namespace again
<nephele>
It's not possible to acces a member inside an xml namespace, that is outside it, so... why make this an error? why waste my time having to manually match namespaces if the literall xml on the wire does it by inheritance too?
<HaikuUser2>
i try to stay the hell away from C#
<nephele>
PulkoMandy: ugh, that sounds horrible, the easy obvious answer is never the right one, you should rather misuse other tools ;)
<nephele>
HaikuUser2: this wasn't a C# problem as such, just horrible library design
<HaikuUser2>
still
<nephele>
I get that error catching is a thing, but why design an API in a way that you can access something that cannot exist and then throw an error when not designing the api that way would have been easier...
<nephele>
C# and TI-Basic were pretty much my first two languages FWIW ;)
<nephele>
not i only use C++ and lua nowadays though, heh
<HaikuUser2>
CBM BASIC for me
<HaikuUser2>
mostly use bash now but trying to learn perl too
<nephele>
I don't like shell scripting much because of it's many design deficiencies, though i am quite adapat in it (but i never learned bash specific syntax)
<HaikuUser2>
never understood the hatred towards shell scripting other than csh
<nephele>
I have a book for perl 5, well.. now it's called raku :)
<HaikuUser2>
lol
<HaikuUser2>
dunno much about raku, but i think ill skip to perl 6
<nephele>
HaikuUser2: Mainly the archaic rules for when to escape, when not to, the way posix does not differentiate between options and arguments (excpet for when it randomly does with --) how applications sometimes implement -- randomly, or don't how you need to triple escape some chars and such
<x512[m]>
Perl is replaced by Python almost everywhere.
<nephele>
HaikuUser2: sorry, my mistake the book is perl /6/ deep dive
<nephele>
but they renamed it to raku
<nephele>
because people would hear "perl" and think "perl!"
<HaikuUser2>
perl! ?
<HaikuUser2>
maybe im thinking of perl 7 then
<nephele>
Some people don't like perl
<nephele>
:)
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<nephele>
Raku is perl 6, just renamed anyhow
<HaikuUser2>
i thought raku was totally different but they called it perl for the name recognition like javascript -> java
<nephele>
i don't think there is a perl7
<nephele>
It's certainly dirivitive of perl, but with like 20 years of language design
<HaikuUser2>
heard there was a new perl that was meant to continue the perl tradition while raku would split off
<mmu_man>
won't be here much for the week-end but you don't need me :)
<BlueSky_mobile>
nephele: raku is the actual implementation of perl 6 as far as I remember. Perl 6 is supposed to be a language standard (similar to C++) with different interpreter (and maybe compiler) implementations
<nephele>
BlueSky_mobile: The language was called perl 6 before with raku the reference implementation but they deliberately renamed the entire language to raku
<nephele>
not sure on the specific though
<BlueSky_mobile>
OK, thanks. Must have missed out on that. Perl is not really on my radar anymore...
<nephele>
maybe because they renamed it ;)
<HaikuUser2>
man, freaking python
<nephele>
x512: didn't you have a lua console on RISCV haiku?
<nephele>
That reminds me, we are shipping webkit, in theory one could totally set the javascript commandline interpreter for the commandline ;)
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<x512[m]>
Yes, in early versions. Because it is much easier to compile Lua then Bash or Python.
<BlueSky_mobile>
More like because Python has more or less replaced Perl nearly everywhere
<HaikuUser2>
i noticed
<pinaraf>
regarding the backlight discussion previously : do you think it could be a nice "junior job" in Haiku? I've never written code for Haiku, but I've plenty of experience with C++, I even wrote minuscule linux patches and fooled around linux ACPI drivers so I can 'reverse' what is needed when spec isn't enough
<pinaraf>
and I still have some time available
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<nephele>
The haiku coding sprint continues for one more week, so there would certainly be guiding help available if you want to tackle this :)
<HaikuUser2>
if only AROS got this kinda attention
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<pinaraf>
nephele: well, I would like to… first step, I need to check my haiku laptop, not sure how backlight is implemented on it
<pinaraf>
how do I disassemble the ACPI tables on Haiku ? :)
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<nephele>
hmm, maybe tqh can answer that :)
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<pinaraf>
I could boot it under Linux, but that would be a shame, wouldn't it?
<nephele>
I'm sure someone knows the answer, just not me, I've never really done any work on ACPI
<pinaraf>
you're lucky
<pinaraf>
also, is there some haiku system administration documentation available ? how to list drivers, devices, load/unload drivers…
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<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] 994794f2d48a - intel extreme: skylake sets color, base and address, no resolution and refresh yet
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<pinaraf>
any suggested IDE for Haiku development? (I like using IDEs to browse and patch code I don't know) either on Linux or on Haiku
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<Niklas[m]>
I use KDevelop.It works good,has many features and is available for both.
<x512[m]>
Pe + Terminal + TextSearch.
<pinaraf>
Niklas[m]: how do you open Jamfiles with it? I'm a bit curious about how you set it up
<Niklas[m]>
Aren't these just normal text files?I never really worked with Jam.
<pinaraf>
they describe the projects and build rules, don't they? thus making them important for the IDE to guess what you can use, where a given include come from…
<Niklas[m]>
Hm,the project I worked with used make instead of jam and I don't think I've set that up properly.I only need the IDE as a text editor with a file manager sidebar and don't actually care about any other features.
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<BrunoSpr>
hello all
<BrunoSpr>
is there a how to for TextSearch?
<BrunoSpr>
never used it
<BrunoSpr>
how to search a text in Terminal with TextSearch for example
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<waddlesplash>
pinaraf: there's Qt Creator
<waddlesplash>
and Koder is a nice text editor, though it's still got some rough edges
<waddlesplash>
pinaraf: also there's already some work on an acpi_display driver so you don't even have to start from scratch. It's unfinished however
<BrunoSpr>
ah ok TextSearch is a Tracker Add-On never used it until now
<BrunoSpr>
lol
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<Not-5726>
[haikuports/haikuports] Begasus pushed 1 commit to master [+3/-0/±0] https://git.io/JiOxU
<Vidrep_64>
runtime_loader: /boot/home/haikuwebkit/WebKitBuild/Release/WebPositive: Could not resolve symbol '_ZTVN8BPrivate7Network14BNetworkCookieE'
<Vidrep_64>
resolve symbol "_ZTVN8BPrivate7Network14BNetworkCookieE" returned: -2147478780
<Vidrep_64>
runtime_loader: /boot/home/haikuwebkit/WebKitBuild/Release/WebPositive: Troubles relocating: Symbol not found
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<PulkoMandy>
there were already more ABI changes since the previous release then
<PulkoMandy>
so it will be fixed after the next one
<Not-5726>
[haikuports/haikuports] Begasus pushed 1 commit to master [+2/-0/±0] https://git.io/Ji3JU
<Not-5726>
[haikuports/haikuports] kwyxz ba145ef - fbneo: new recipe (#6317)
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<BrunoSpr>
Begasus... ah ok problem is on 64 and 32bit
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<BrunoSpr>
I really like to see TexStudio work, because it is common for students
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<BrunoSpr>
Begasus... first the CLI for Texpdf should work, is it TexLive_core
<BrunoSpr>
?
<jmairboeck>
BrunoSpr: the binaries are there as part of texlive_core, but it doesn't work yet without the data package (texlive and its subpackages) which is not merged yet
<BrunoSpr>
jmairboeck... ah ok thats why... I and Begasus tried to make it working since weeks
<BrunoSpr>
jmairboeck, so no need for TexStudio now, without the texlive packages
<jmairboeck>
it probably needs at least the texlive "main" package which contains some config files, and to do something sensible, texlive_basic and probably texlive_latex would also be needed
<waddlesplash>
we link WebKit before libnetapi. reversing that may help
<legendaryamerican>
I still have this kdl on the other system in front of me if someone wants more commands and shots to issue and recieve
<waddlesplash>
which kdl is that?
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<waddlesplash>
the wifi one?
<waddlesplash>
yeah, that's not really "fixable" unfortunately, you can rebuild the beta2 driver but that's about it
<waddlesplash>
I suspect that won't help a whole lot with diagnosing this however
<legendaryamerican>
Just so long as programmers have this info. Then they can get the fix in the next update. Because.. i can at some point jump in and help a few of the ports.. lmms type stuff doesn't connect to opensound. Opensound has a rump entry in media prefs.. MeV doesn't even have the binary. Nm source
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<legendaryamerican>
Lots of relatively little things on the way to R1
<waddlesplash>
the KDL is not going to get fixed, it's an ABI incompatibility between beta2 and beta3 kernels
<waddlesplash>
the WiFi issue however should be ... though I haven't really tried to read your syslog yet
<legendaryamerican>
I understand that. The kdl helps show what the problem might be. I'm kosher
<waddlesplash>
nah, but the patch I made will prevent this problem from occuring on beta3 -> beta4
<waddlesplash>
(possibly
<waddlesplash>
)
<legendaryamerican>
Suweet
<waddlesplash>
the WPA2 issue is another matter though. plenty of other people have this hardware and they use WPA2 fine
<waddlesplash>
so, that makes your issie a little baffling
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<legendaryamerican>
It happens on 3 systems. Only one has a non atheros AFAIK. I haven't tried it on the fourth system but because that's an i3 boo stink. But oh well. Can try
<waddlesplash>
that indicates some incompatibility with your AP
<waddlesplash>
so, the drivers are not relevant here then
<waddlesplash>
legendaryamerican: can you try upgrading to a nightly build?
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<HaikuUser2>
?
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<waddlesplash>
download this file, apply with "git apply <file>", then "jam -q @nightly-raw WebPositive"
<waddlesplash>
then try running the resulting Web+ binary
<waddlesplash>
with the new webkit
<Vidrep_64>
OK
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<barctor>
hello, i believe i've found a discrepancy between `ln` under linux and haiku that has the capability to break scripts (in this case some autotools build stuff). Could somebody confirm the behaviour is reproducable on their install so i can be sure it's worth reporting as a bug?
<Begasus>
BrunoSpr, jmairboeck rebuilding texstudio (4.0.2) with new quazip (1.1) atm
<barctor>
fwiw `touch foo && ln foo ./doesnt-exist/bar; echo $?` fails and returns 1 under linux but fails silently in my terminal and returns 0, preventing the status of `ln` being reliably used in conditionals
<Begasus>
BrunoSpr, as far as texlive ... the base package is ok, but you'd still need to build the other packages (disabled atm) to get something to work in TeXstudio
<Begasus>
ln as in hard links barctor ?
<barctor>
yeah i think so
<Begasus>
afaict Haiku doesn't support them
<Begasus>
so maybe you could use "ln -s"?
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<barctor>
ln -s works fine yeah, but the issue is more that if creating hardlinks with `ln` fails but returns a zero status code then it can break things. I only found out this is the case as i'm unable to build zbar currently due to hardlink creation failing and not triggering an `|| cp ` or condition that would otherwise succeed
<barctor>
i suppose this would be tricky to resolve then if we're using upstream gnu ln? I honestly have no idea as i'm very new to both Haiku and the C/C++ tooling generally
<Begasus>
I think there should be some examples in the recipes at haikuports on how to avoid using hard links
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<waddlesplash>
it's possible the reserveUncommitted change I had nephele make broke this
<waddlesplash>
please open a new ticket
<Vidrep_64>
Same URL and description of what triggers it as in the ticket
<waddlesplash>
nephele: does WebAssembly still work for you?
<Vidrep_64>
OK, I'll keep the debug report and open a new ticket
<Vidrep_64>
Later today, I have to go out for a couple of hours
<Vidrep_64>
Thanks
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<Begasus>
closing down here, g'night peeps
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<legendaryamerican>
Ok. Video for aspire one doesn't exactly work for recent commiftal will try safe mode video
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<legendaryamerican>
Ok waddlesplash guess what we got? Wpa. But our pals the gfx committ boys prematurely committed their fixes so I got Vesa mode now. But we are wifi
<waddlesplash>
nice
<waddlesplash>
since ping worked for you before it may have been TCP problems
<waddlesplash>
anyway, intel drivers are currently getting development so that's probably what happened there
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<legendaryamerican>
Nightlie #55576 or by that time your fix so far works sure you want other test feedback from others. Recent gfx commits Bork video so we go in Vesa mode but we HAVE WPA. To all stations
<legendaryamerican>
We know gfx guys.
<legendaryamerican>
Hot doggers
<legendaryamerican>
Ok. Let me get out of irccloud and get into haiku and vision.
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<LegendaryAmerican>
weee
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<LegendaryAmerican>
glteapot at least works in vesa mode. didnt work before.
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<nephele>
waddlesplash: still work?
<nephele>
it was broken before that ticket of vidrep was fixed, but i haven't actively tested it, so i don't know
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<LegendaryAmerican>
ok rebooting vesa settings file.
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<LegendaryAmerican>
ok. vesa text file wont push it into vesa. just safe mode
<LegendaryAmerican>
thats fine. im sure gfx will have something awesome to show for blocking folks out.
<jessicah>
the mode selection currently only works if the bootloader can see it
<jessicah>
as an available option; the live-patching should let you use other resolutions
<jessicah>
oh, if you want to force vesa mode, it's in ~/config/settings/kernel/drivers/kernel file
<jessicah>
fail_safe_video_mode true
<LegendaryAmerican>
omg
<LegendaryAmerican>
ok thx
<LegendaryAmerican>
rebooting
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<LegendaryAmerican>
ok. works.
<LegendaryAmerican>
we no longer have the vesa file. gotcha.
<jessicah>
I believe the vesa file allows for specifying a specific mode to use
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<LegendaryAmerican>
ok. wont matter as vesa is gonna give you the available modes anyhow.
<jessicah>
depends on the card :) some are buggy
<LegendaryAmerican>
im gonna have to look up how to git on the nightlies probably the way to update on this dev version
<jessicah>
what do you mean?
<LegendaryAmerican>
how else do you update a dev version?
<jessicah>
I just use pkgman update
<LegendaryAmerican>
really? that command?
<waddlesplash>
yes
<jessicah>
to update to latest nightly, yep
<waddlesplash>
make sure your repos are "master" not "r1beta" of course