<coolcoder613>
shouldnt haiku_pyapi be depending on haiku_pyapi_python310?
<augiedoggie>
the top level package is usually empty for the python recipes
<augiedoggie>
you could call it a quirk or bug that nobody has fixed
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<coolcoder613>
whats the status of the swift port?
<coolcoder613>
Shouldnt the top-level package be empty, but depend on the actual package?
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<augiedoggie>
but there are multiple python packages, so which one would it depend on?
<coolcoder613>
Thats up to the maintainer
<coolcoder613>
I mean the package haiku_pyapi can depend on haiku_pyapi_python310
<coolcoder613>
or haiku_pyapi_python39
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<kallisti5[m]>
I closed "Accountability and Criticism" in the forums because I hate it lol. If anyone disagrees reach out to a mod and it can be re-opened. I just feel like it's a time suck at this point.
<augiedoggie>
you're going to need to clone and build the buildtools as well
<coolcoder613>
I'm on Haiku
<coolcoder613>
Why do some packages need a reboot after installing?
<erysdren>
i'd guess that the kernel can't load certain types of packages at run time
<erysdren>
depending on what they do
<coolcoder613>
haiku_pyapi needs that for some reason
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<coolcoder613>
+
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<coolcoder613>
Where is Begasus?
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<coolcoder613>
Hi Begasus
<Begasus>
Hi coolcoder613
<Begasus>
g'morning peeps
<coolcoder613>
I say where is Begasus, and 10 seconds later...
<Begasus>
lol
<Begasus>
congrats on the release!
<Begasus>
not yet in the depot (buildmaster still at llvm)
<coolcoder613>
what happens to the haikuports categories? like dev-*, app-* games-*
<Begasus>
not sure what you mean there
<coolcoder613>
in the ports tree
<Begasus>
in regards for the paths, they are being kept with the Gentoo layout
<coolcoder613>
Those catergories would be useful in HaikuDepot, or in the Deskbar
<Begasus>
like the clamav, PR puts them in app-security first, but Gentoo has that in app-antivirus
<Begasus>
that's something for owenca (depot) and the Haiku devs :)
<Begasus>
ZETA used that kind of layout, many discussions already for Haiku in regards of outlining the Deskbar menu over the years
<coolcoder613>
The question is, how can i get what category an application is in? So i could build something that sorts the Deskbar Applications menu
<coolcoder613>
evidently, discussing it doesnt help
<Begasus>
at haikuports this would be easy to do, putt an app in a submenu, but no agreement there yet
<coolcoder613>
Can i pull in metadata about apps? would it have the category?
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<Begasus>
no idea there
<Begasus>
looking in FileTypes it doesn't mention categories
* coolcoder613
goes to dissect a hpkg
<Begasus>
Info doesn't seem to show anything related there too
* coolcoder613
doesn't find anything
<Begasus>
maybe poke humdinger when he's around?
<Begasus>
he should know more about HaikuDepot
<coolcoder613>
I'm thinking of making a recipe database program, insead of flipping through a few recipe books, you have a searchable database of recipes
<Begasus>
I've written some useful information in regards to recipes on my github wiki (mostly started out for myself)
<Begasus>
and repology has tons of information too :)
<coolcoder613>
food recipes
<Begasus>
ah :D
* |cos|
would love to see an haiku recipe manager to help replace the rottening crap i use for https://mat.netizen.se/
<coolcoder613>
erysdren thought i was talking about haikuports recipes too ;)
<|cos|>
The command line is wonderful for most things, but I know from experience that's not the right interface to use while actively cooking a dish! :)
<coolcoder613>
|cos| What features do you use?
<|cos|>
coolcoder613: don't design for me. i'm an odd user, as seen from the link above. the most important feature is to be able to store, search for and view recipes.
<|cos|>
coolcoder613: me personally, i kind of like being able to tick off and adjust how much of each ingredient i actually use while cooking. (for refining a dish to perfection)
<coolcoder613>
I'm wondering wether the recipe format should be structured... should the recipe be basically a text file
<coolcoder613>
|cos| what about weird units like 3/4 of a packet
<|cos|>
i've stored my recipes in an sqlite3 database, but that was a bad decision.
<coolcoder613>
I would use json, but then i'm not a database guy
<|cos|>
i keep density as a property on each ingredient, to convert between volume and weight.
<coolcoder613>
that sound way too complicated for the average user
<coolcoder613>
*sounds
<|cos|>
> 09:49 cos| coolcoder613: don't design for me. i'm an odd user,
<|cos|>
i need to head into a meeting now, but i hope to learn more about this project later!
<coolcoder613>
Hmmm.... should the recipe database be one json file, or a folder of recipe files with attributes?
<coolcoder613>
If they are recipe files with attributes, can i use queries?
<coolcoder613>
files+queries seems to be 'The Haiku Way (tm)' but is it really any better?
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<PulkoMandy>
Not really
<PulkoMandy>
They are useful for things that may be shared between different apps
<PulkoMandy>
Or searched using Tracker
<PulkoMandy>
If you don't need them, don't use them. Itws just another option, additional to what's already available elsewhere. That's not a reason to try to use them absolutely everywhere
<coolcoder613>
How can I insert symbols, such as the degrees symbol, in Pe?
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* coolcoder613
worked it out, can drag and drog from charactermap
<|cos|>
coolcoder613: my notes mention https://thinkle.github.io/gourmet/ and https://cooklang.org/ if you believe in inspiration from others, but your ideas on how to do things might be more appropriate for an haiku app
<coolcoder613>
I'm working on a sample recipe file, I'll show you in a few mins
<|cos|>
i'll need to get out and about for a bit, but'll be back later.
<andreaa72>
drivesetup 4 haiku 32 bit => not compatible with beos max ...
<coolcoder613>
probably not compiled with gcc2
<andreaa72>
np ...
<PulkoMandy>
None of our applications will run on BeOS
<PulkoMandy>
We added the layout kit, the locale kit, and a lot of other things to the API
<andreaa72>
imho it needs a build under developer
<andreaa72>
ah, ok
<PulkoMandy>
Compatibility works in the other direction only (run BeOS apps on Haiku)
<andreaa72>
peace :)
<andreaa72>
cu ...
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<nagerst>
very scilent here today
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<|cos|>
coolcoder613[m]: wouldn't it make sense to separate quantity, unit and ingredient? say you'd like to make a double or triple batch some day. multiplication is one thing computers are better at than some users, including me.
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<Begasus>
Warning: POLICY WARNING: "/packaging/ppsspp/apps/PPSSPP/PPSSPP" needs library "libSDL2_ttf-2.0.so.0", but the package doesn't seem to declare that as a requirement
<Begasus>
looks like with the cmake config files for SDL2-ttf it somehow broke the detection for ppsspp ..
<Begasus>
those weren't provided in previous version*
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<Begasus>
bbl
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<erysdren>
good morning party people
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<zdykstra>
it's 9:36 AM and I'm ready to go back to bed
<erysdren>
oh hey, same timezone
<erysdren>
and yeah, i feel the same
<erysdren>
i need coffee
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<erysdren>
Begasus: what to do when a configure script wants libc6?
<erysdren>
and ldd?
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<Begasus>
erysdren, tried looking at haikuports?
<Begasus>
ldd, is not supported in Haiku afaik, libc should be in libroot
<Begasus>
iirc :)
<erysdren>
aye
<Begasus>
augiedoggie, just saw your comment, looks like freegemas suffers from the same issue, without the cmake config files it builds fine also
<erysdren>
i'm just trying to figure out what "found but does not link" means
<Begasus>
broken link?
<Begasus>
afk again for a while :)
<erysdren>
Checking for dlfcn.h (libc6-dev)... found but does not link, please install it or set PKG_CONFIG_PATH right!
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<mbrumbelow>
@waddlesplash: from the discussion forums, specifically Accountability and Criticism topic, I did not have a chance to respond to your last comment, because someone decided to close the topic for comments. Every open source project is volunteer-driven. The most effective have a structure in place that is used to deliver new features and functionality. Linux, Gnome, Postgresql, Kafka all have project structures and leaders to guide
<mbrumbelow>
the project. Decentralized or ineffective leadership is more akin to HURD or Plan9. Products that have little or no adoption. If this project is to be a play toy rather than a useful product, then I agree with your premise. Tweak here, make small changes there and maybe in the future when people feel like it, do a beta release.
<waddlesplash>
mbrumbelow: no. Linux, Gnome, Postgresql are all driven by paid contributors
<waddlesplash>
Linux by the Foundation, Red Hat, Google, etc.
<waddlesplash>
PostgreSQL is funded by the cloud companies that use it extensively
<waddlesplash>
they are definitely *not* volunteer-driven
<mbrumbelow>
They are not paid by Postgresql as an example. EDB pays it s employees to work on postgresql.
<mbrumbelow>
I know that for a fact.
<waddlesplash>
so? they're still paid, they're not volunteers
<waddlesplash>
and I am pretty sure there are some people that do work directly for the PostgreSQL foundation or whatever it's called
<waddlesplash>
even if they're a minority of the paid developers
<mbrumbelow>
They volunteer to change the code, fix bugs. They are paid by their employers EDB.
<waddlesplash>
no, many of these programmers are *assigned to work on postgresql*
<waddlesplash>
it is part of their job description at whatever their employer is
<waddlesplash>
and even if it's not specifically part of it, fixing some bug in particular may be part of their job description, and if the bug hunt takes them into postgresql, they fix the bug there and submit a patch
<waddlesplash>
either way, not "volunteer"
<waddlesplash>
at my previous job, I wound up doing triage on some kernel bugs in RHEL/CentOS and reporting problems to upstream with the needed patches identified. "Work on the Linux kernel" was of course nowhere in my job description, but I wound up doing it once or twice, and not because I "volunteered"
<mbrumbelow>
You were volunteering to make a change. No one other than your employer was forcing you to do anything.
<mbrumbelow>
Gnome pays people to change code.
<mbrumbelow>
And they have an elaborate structure in place to make that FOSS project successful.
<zdykstra>
that structure works because they have real money backing it
<mbrumbelow>
We disagree and that is ok. :)
<zdykstra>
they can afford to alienate casual developers BECAUSE they have sufficient paid resources being thrown at it
<zdykstra>
Haiku doesn't have that luxury - so people work on what they want, when they want
<mbrumbelow>
EXACTLY
<mbrumbelow>
And here we are 20 years later no closer to Release 1.0 than back in 2009… maybe a little closer because I can run Haiku on hardware.
<zdykstra>
what do you propose, telling people that freely contribute their time and knowledge that they HAVE to work on item #xxx on the "release 1.0 checklist" ?
<erysdren>
oh boy
<erysdren>
it has spread
<zdykstra>
like butter over too much bread
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<mbrumbelow>
@zdykstra: nope… that is kinda silly.
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<waddlesplash>
<mbrumbelow> You were volunteering to make a change. No one other than your employer was forcing you to do anything.
<waddlesplash>
???
<waddlesplash>
how does this make any sense?
<waddlesplash>
my employer employed me to do work. that work included fixing customer problems. the customer problem led me to uncover a kernel bug.
<waddlesplash>
so, what do I do next? go to my employer and say "I refuse to fix this problem"?
<waddlesplash>
all other alternatives to that included me doing "non-volunteer" work on an open source project
<waddlesplash>
<mbrumbelow> And here we are 20 years later no closer to Release 1.0 than back in 2009… maybe a little closer because I can run Haiku on hardware.
<waddlesplash>
huh? exponentially closer
<waddlesplash>
please go run R1/alpha1 in a VM and tell me with a straight face that R1/beta4 is "no closer"!
<erysdren>
beta4 is remarkably stable. it's hardly given me any problems and i've been tinkering for months
<erysdren>
both in VM and on hardware
<zdykstra>
yeah, r1/b4 and nightly releases are absolutely fantastic
<mbrumbelow>
I have not seen any statements that beta 5 or release 1 is near. If 5 years from now there is no release 1, I will be proven right… hope that I am not. Being proven wrong is a good thing in this case.
<zdykstra>
what is your point?
<erysdren>
why does it matter if you're proven right?
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<mbrumbelow>
It does not
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<erysdren>
im just confused about your point. while haiku might have lofty goals, currently it is just a hobbyist OS. we do what we can to help it, within the bounds of our interest and the bounds of our time
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<mbrumbelow>
Then it is a hobbyist OS. Nothing more needs to be said if that is the case.
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<erysdren>
i should say, that's just my view.
<erysdren>
other people probably view it differently
<mbrumbelow>
I think that is a valid point. Don’t walk it back.
<erysdren>
linux was in the right place at the right time to grow as fast as it did in the 90s and haiku doesn't have that luxury, so i think the progress it has made is remarkable
<erysdren>
even if it took 20 years
<Begasus>
weird, openclaw (using cmake build) is fine with sdl2-ttf
<erysdren>
bad time Begasus :P
<mbrumbelow>
No Haiku had that luxury back in 2008 -
<mbrumbelow>
2011
<erysdren>
i wouldn't know. i was too young
<mbrumbelow>
It does not now.
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<mbrumbelow>
I was there. I saw all that happened. But hey… its a hobbyist OS. There is nothing more for me to say other than that.
<erysdren>
shrug
<Begasus>
and still we love it mbrumbelow
<Begasus>
:)
<mbrumbelow>
:)
<erysdren>
i just got here in May 2023. didn't know about haiku before that
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<Begasus>
erysdren, some of us are around maybe older then you are ;)
<erysdren>
mhm
<mbrumbelow>
Agree!!!!!
<mbrumbelow>
LOL
<erysdren>
many people here were using BeOS before i was born
<erysdren>
if that tells you anything
<erysdren>
for what it's worth, i'm planning to ship my Quake engine FPS game on Haiku when it's done next year. just cuz.
<mbrumbelow>
Using Be and writing device code for it was excellent. Writing code for Haiku is excellent too.
<erysdren>
not only on Haiku, but it'll be available
<Begasus>
went through the process of BeBits for years :)
<zdykstra>
I started using BeOS in 1998, erysdren
<Begasus>
BeOS PE was my first
<erysdren>
yep, way before my time
<Begasus>
one of the nice things here, we go round through many generations
<mbrumbelow>
My point that everyone seems to miss is that there is an absence of leadership and direction and that causes people to make statements in the different forums like yesterday. Then folks come around and close off the discussion because they think it is counter productive, I disagree. That feedback needs to be open and transparent so that everyone can opine. No one likes to hear negative things. But they need to be heard and if
<mbrumbelow>
possible resolved it is a true issue.
<Begasus>
it's been said many times already mbrumbelow, and to some extend I tend to agree, but we deal with the sources we have, nothing is going to change that, you still remember people asking over 20 years ago to have a port for Firefox, this still pops up now and then
<mbrumbelow>
Yep I remember
<Begasus>
so every now and then those arguments will rise up again :)
<mbrumbelow>
Yep :)
<andreaa72>
i don't know => freedom ;)
<Begasus>
right andreaa72, freedom of choice :)
<andreaa72>
freedom of choice, yehaa :)
<Begasus>
doesn't solve my problem with SDL2-ttf now though :P
<andreaa72>
not even the eternal father has ever forced anyone...
<Begasus>
don't go there andreaa72 :)
<mbrumbelow>
@andreaa72: I am taking the bait… Jonah?
<Begasus>
heh
<andreaa72>
freedom to choose even between good and evil ...
<mbrumbelow>
Ah…
<erysdren>
lol
<Begasus>
I think buildmaster is stuck again on 32bit
<Begasus>
that or has a real hard time on haikuwebkit :)
<andreaa72>
ah, i thought google = glasses ...
<andreaa72>
but nooo , xD
<erysdren>
what are you talking about
<andreaa72>
what means google
<andreaa72>
the word
<erysdren>
to search for, using the internet
<erysdren>
to "google it" means to use an internet search engine to find information.
<erysdren>
phschafft: what were you thinking about wrt OS APis?
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<phschafft>
hm.
<andreasdr[m]>
Hi Erysdren
<phschafft>
I'm more a lower level, framework, backend, whatever interface centric person.
<phschafft>
I recently had a lot of things going in terms of researching alternatives to currently well used patterns.
<phschafft>
one of the thoughts were about if we would start over again, what syscalls we actually need. also a bit in context of some of the projects I'm doing.
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<phschafft>
in the end there wasn't much left. (this ignores that there are sometimes variants of the same syscalls for reasons such as speed.)
<erysdren>
what'd you come up with?
<phschafft>
hm?
<phschafft>
(plus there are a good number less because of specific OS features working in a totally different way.)
<phschafft>
I very much like the unix way of everything is a file (beside that I dislike files as a concept). So I think I ended up with a mix of that and what microsoft does. meaning file handles are one of the central items.
<phschafft>
there are a good number of syscalls for reading and writing in different ways and on different kind of objects. those all make sense. but for my needs I reduced them in this blueprint to one for reading and one for writing.
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<phschafft>
I would keep something a bit like readdir and linkat to read and write records; however as files and directories are gone basically all file and directory calls are naturally gone as well.
<erysdren>
hmm
<erysdren>
what's your replacement for the file/directory structure?
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<phschafft>
more structured data. think more database than filesystem.
<phschafft>
doesn't mean you cannot put files in that. just that it's not optionally used that way.
<erysdren>
cool
<phschafft>
which is a bit on focus for the last few-many years of research for me. so something there actually is working software doing things today (in contrast to a naive 'that would be cool').
* OscarL
finds it a bit comforting that even GvR gets confused by how targetting "abi3" works on Python :-D
<coolcoder613_32>
Thanks for porting Haiku-PyAPI ton 32 bit
* coolcoder613_32
wonders why he makes so many typos
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<OscarL>
coolcoder613_32: happy to help where I can! Thanks to you for worning on it on the first place! :-)
<coolcoder613_32>
i just merged it
<OscarL>
I'll change my recipe to point to that commit, and test if things work as expected on both 32 and 64 bits then.
<coolcoder613_32>
I support python3.9 because it isn't really any extra work, it's still in HaikuDepot, and no other python version have pybind11, so if i didnt test that, there would be bugs in the multiversion support
<OscarL>
Understood. I did similar when adding some new Python packages (and be fore we had 3.11/3.12), by testing that the builds worked on 3.9, but then I just left that version out :-)
<coolcoder613_32>
when will pybind11 be available for 3.11 and 3.12?
<OscarL>
you should be able to install them with pip3.11 / pip3.12
<OscarL>
not sure if I want to add too many packages (.hpkg) for Python 3.11.
<OscarL>
but I'm far from the authority there, so... others might differ :-)
<coolcoder613_32>
but the headers wont be in the place the build script assumes them to be, and how can i ensure they are installed for building the hpkg
<OscarL>
the build script should be adapted to look for all the places where python packages might install header files.
<coolcoder613_32>
and for the hpkg?
<OscarL>
I'm pretty sure there are ways to determine where Python might install things as headers, but I do not recall them right away.
<coolcoder613_32>
I think the headers get put in the site-packages?
<coolcoder613_32>
Regardless as it is going to be our next major python version, we should have a pybind11 package for python3.12
<OscarL>
I have .h even under "$HOME/config/non-packaged/include/python3.10/greenlet/" at the moment :-D (after a pip3 install --user greenlet)
<coolcoder613_32>
and without --user? probably /system/non-packaged/include/python3.10/greenlet?