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<mojodaddy>
This is a badass group I see. I've been around way before 2001 but I wasn't aware of this group. However, I wasn't really looking either. Glad I found it though.
<mojodaddy>
I've been playing around with various operating systems tonight and found Haiku. Pretty cool actually. Not quite ready for primetime, but kudos to the coders! Hat is off, fist bump, and all that. I'm a coder as well. I'm an applications engineer for a large bank.
<waddlesplash>
well, welcome :)
<mojodaddy>
I was wondering if anyone was hearing my rant.
<waddlesplash>
well, all the Europeans are asleep, they'll read it tomorrow :-p
<mojodaddy>
Kewl Beanstalks.
<mojodaddy>
I do Oracle, Python, Perl, VB, Oracle Forms, etc. Been coding since, well, 1979...
<waddlesplash>
heh, that's quite a while
<mojodaddy>
Did the Y2K thing with a large corporation.
<waddlesplash>
you've been coding longer than I've been alive. though you may not want to inquire too specifically about how much longer if you don't want to feel too old :D
<mojodaddy>
hahahahahahahaha
<mojodaddy>
No worries, I'm used to it.
<mojodaddy>
Not many guys, or gals, these days can keep up with me actually.
<mojodaddy>
Coding that is. In my skillset language, that is...
<mojodaddy>
Umm, my current skillset language...
<mojodaddy>
I've had so many over the years, I've lost track.
<mojodaddy>
Right now, its Oracle as the DB, and Perl and Python as the scripting
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<mojodaddy>
Before that, I guess it was Oracle Forms.
<waddlesplash>
I have never had the misfortune to write stuff for Oracle DB
<mojodaddy>
Then VB10
<mojodaddy>
Oh
<waddlesplash>
some mysql a while back, then mostly postgres at my last job
<mojodaddy>
Oracle Forms is the Bee's Knees!
<waddlesplash>
now ... do BFS queries count?
<mojodaddy>
I love it!
<mojodaddy>
no
<mojodaddy>
My SQL queires are in the 1000s of lines long.
<mojodaddy>
Some of my PLSQL use 60 separate SQL steps in one Function.
<mojodaddy>
So in one function, FUN_CARD_POSITIONS_ADA, I call 60 separate SQL statements to create 60 temporary tables, all being used along the way to build up larger, more complex tables, then finally is used to produce a 800 column wide interface file for our downstream vendor.
<mojodaddy>
So, BFS queries? :)
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<waddlesplash>
yeah ... nothing like that obviously
<mojodaddy>
But that's my forthey
<mojodaddy>
fortye
<mojodaddy>
So what kind of work requires BFS queries?
<mojodaddy>
Is this the group, or part of the group that wrote it?
<waddlesplash>
this the community IRC channel for the Haiku project as a whole, yes
<waddlesplash>
the developers and other community leaders all have +o but some prefer to hide amongst the plebians...
<mojodaddy>
Kewl
<mojodaddy>
It's not really my area of programming, per se, but I've always been a learner.
<waddlesplash>
OS development is many different kinds of development all at once
<mojodaddy>
I grew up writing programs in obscure operating systems.
<waddlesplash>
driver development, kernel development, UI kit development, and then good ol' desktop GUI development
<mojodaddy>
And I guess I would say that Haiku is a bit obscure.
<waddlesplash>
unfortunately, yes
<waddlesplash>
we still have plans for world domination though
<mojodaddy>
hahaha
<mojodaddy>
I love it
<mojodaddy>
Ok, what's the killer app?
<waddlesplash>
nobody really has killer apps these days :(
<waddlesplash>
the system is the killer app
<mojodaddy>
What's the one app everyone should be using?
<waddlesplash>
Haiku :-p
<mojodaddy>
Well, besides the whole thingl...
<waddlesplash>
more seriously, we have ports of most Linux software depending on what you need to do
<waddlesplash>
LibreOffice, etc.
<mojodaddy>
I'm looking at HaikuDepot now
<waddlesplash>
most of the joy of using Haiku is in the system itself and how everything fits together, not necessarily in any one application
<mojodaddy>
I can see that.
<waddlesplash>
while we would like more natively developed applications and less ports, as the native apps obviously "fit in" better just like on macOS, ultimately even using LibreOffice or the like on Haiku is generally a much better experience than the same on Linux
<mojodaddy>
It took a moment to realize that the menu click on the desk top allowed me to drill right down to the file system level.
<waddlesplash>
yep!
<waddlesplash>
that's a BeOS feature we've still got
<waddlesplash>
andreadr: nah, looks like she left not long ago
<mojodaddy>
nice
<andreadr>
Damn.
<andreadr>
Thank you.
<waddlesplash>
did you open a ticket yet?
<waddlesplash>
the bootloader log will probably be relevant here
<waddlesplash>
(any chance that machine has a serial port :-p?)
<waddlesplash>
some other people were reporting the EFI loader failing on recent hardware, I think also DHowett, so would be interesting to find out if you all are having the same problem
<waddlesplash>
and if that commit is indeed the cause, that will simplify debugging I'd guess
<waddlesplash>
partitions seem to be the bane of the bootloaders existence
<andreadr>
Waddlesplash? Do you mean me? I was testing yesterday for jessica some revisions.
<waddlesplash>
yes
<andreadr>
Ah Ok.
<waddlesplash>
I read the IRC logs and keep tabs
<andreadr>
I sent her yesterday Haikus syslog. Now I have installed linux because she wants some info from me.
<andreadr>
She wanted the partition layouts via gptdisk or something
<andreadr>
Do you have an idea what she exactly needs?
<andreadr>
AFK 3 mins
<andreadr>
I can also open a ticket. Good idea.
<waddlesplash>
yeah, just collect logs there
<waddlesplash>
she's in NZ so I imagine your timezones are pretty far apart
<mojodaddy>
@waddlesplash, I need to go for now, but I'll be back. Thanks for chatting. Again, good work, I like it.
<waddlesplash>
:)
<mojodaddy>
cya
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<andreadr>
Its also 3 o clock in the morning here :DDD
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<bparker_>
oz?
<bparker_>
oh am, nvm
<andreadr>
Nice report Waddlesplash
<DHowett>
she was thinking about bringing back colored pixel debugging for the EFI loader, if i recall
<Skipp_OSX>
"when they designed the Apple II, the two Steves had no idea that Bob Frankston and Dan Bricklin were going to invent VisiCalc, the big time tractor. When he set out to design the original IBM PC, Don Estridge had no idea that a transcendental meditation teacher named Mitch Kapor would create Lotus 1-2-3"
<andreadr>
I just tested with Jessicah relevant revisions with UEFI code changes. We fount out that 55219 was the last revision that worked :D
<andreadr>
:)
<andreadr>
Need to get out of this slow debian installation. Rebooting.
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<andreasdr>
I used to work with Lotus-1-2-3 and Domino the first five years of my business programmer life. It was not that bad. :)
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<BrunoSpr>
LNK user on Telegram asked: how to make haiku dont downgrade the hpkg i install every update? if the hpkg have a plus number why it think i want the old version? n,n how can i change it, dont want to install the same 10 hpkgs every upgrade
<BrunoSpr>
I answered: I think you have to take out the 10 .hpkg in /system/packages
<BrunoSpr>
Hope I am right?
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<BrunoSpr>
hi all, my twitter.com is no more working with Web+ is there a regression?
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<Not-5726>
[haikuports/haikuports] threedeyes pushed 1 commit to master [+1/-1/±1] https://git.io/JPAwu
<Dusan_Krehel>
waddlesplash: dual license: GPLv3 and LGPLv3
<Dusan_Krehel>
waddlesplash: dual license: GPLv3+ and LGPLv3+
<Guest4921>
What's the point of dual licensing?
<Dusan_Krehel>
if part of code is under GPL, so all code of app must under GPL
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<Dusan_Krehel>
at GPLv3 no
<Dusan_Krehel>
at LGPLv3 no
<Dusan_Krehel>
at LGPLv no
<Dusan_Krehel>
at LGPL no
<Dusan_Krehel>
but at GPLv3, u can compile dynamic, but not static
<Dusan_Krehel>
Guest4921: u select in real, what u do like
<Guest4921>
If you dual license and the user can pick, they'd pick the less restrictvie license, so why offer the GPLv3 version?
<Dusan_Krehel>
if u compile static, ur full code must under LGPL or GPL
<Dusan_Krehel>
Guest4921: hm, i think
<jmairboeck>
LGPL (at least version 3) contains an "upgrade clause" to GPL, so you can license all LGPL v3 code under GPL v3 if you wish
<Guest4921>
Static compilation is just ahead of time linking of libraries instead of at load time, it seems kind of nonsensical to make a destinction there
<jmairboeck>
dynamic linking satisfies the requirement that the end user can replace the library with a (binary compatible) alternative by replacing the .so file
<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] 93c85294753f - boot/zstd: prevent weak symbols from sneaking in
<jmairboeck>
you can also use static linking if you provide an alternative way to do that, e.g. by providing object files for your (closed source) app so that it could be re-linked with a modified library. But that is significantly more effort and nobody does that
<Guest4921>
doesn't seen rekated ti whetger or not the software is a derivitive of gpl work
<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] acf8592e8220 - build: don't use regular TARGET_*_FLAGS for .S files in bootloader
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<Dusan_Krehel>
Guest4921: "doesn't seen rekated ti whetger or not the software is a derivitive of gpl work" what?
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<Guest4921>
Whether software is derivitive of gpl software is the part what makes gpl an infectious license, I don't think they have specific terms related to specific types of linking, you would be able to easily defeat such a clause with a differeing system architecture
<jezek2>
it's a common misconception that you can't link statically with LGPL: you just need to provide the .o files and a build script so the end-user can recombine with different version of the library
<Dusan_Krehel>
jezek2: true ;)
<Guest4921>
I don't think it's that you can't, i think its more that companies prefer to stay a safe marging away from anything that gpl people can sue them with
<Dusan_Krehel>
to doesnt a problem, if it doesnt must
<Guest4921>
Not using gpl software out of fear of lawsuits seems perfectly reasonable after the gpl enforcement suits of busybox, just has the side effect that companies burn everything that was touched by the gpl... apples source releases are now marginally smaller, AOSP has a no gpl in userspace policy etc.
<Guest4921>
(Or well, not AOSP technically, but the "Android" trademark does)
<bparker_>
Guest4921: not only that but some also don't want to use it *because they will need* to start lawsuits against people who steal their code without abiding by the license
<Dusan_Krehel>
max easy way is not to mix gpl with another philosophy license
<Guest4921>
bparker_: to qoute rob landley: "From a purely pragmatic perspective: I spent over a year doing busybox license enforcement, and a dozen lawsuits later I'm still unaware of a SINGLE LINE OF CODE added to the busybox repository as a result..."
<Dusan_Krehel>
is to break the GPL code is easier than any other type of license?
<bparker_>
easy way is to just use an *actually* free license like BSD/MIT/Apache/etc.
<Guest4921>
dusan_krehel: Not sure what you mean, violating a contract is probably easier the more clauses you can accidentally break
<bparker_>
it's ironic that GPL places so many more restrictions on your freedom than a BSD license
<Guest4921>
from that perspective it is probably easier to violate the GPL than MIT or something
<Guest4921>
(where the only clause is basically "dont claim you wrote this" "copy this blob of text everywhere")
<Guest4921>
bparker_: for my personal projects using MIT is certainly easier, i don't quite get the arguments that people could "steal" my code... sure companies can take it and use it, and if they don't they force a programmer to rewrite my code again, doesn't sound like we gained anything from doing that, just that we now know even less about the code the company runs, heh
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<jezek2>
for me personally I find even BSD/MIT/etc too constraining :D I ended up preferring ZLIB because it doesn't require attribution in binary builds
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<Guest4921>
Rob Landley Introduced the "BSD0" license as one option aswell, it's technically similar to some other ones, but it certainly sounds catchy
<Guest4921>
purpose with or without fee is hereby granted."
<Guest4921>
(plus the "AS IS" paragraph :)
<Guest4921>
"Permission to use, copy, modify, and/or distribute this software for any