<bitigchi>
feels like there's big potential in Japan, in terms of users, but not many gathering/showing up here
<waddlesplash>
we used to have #haiku-jp
<waddlesplash>
not really a thing anymore unfortunately ... maybe a job for the marketing team to set up bridges
<waddlesplash>
maybe someone can start a LINE channel and bridge it to Matrix and IRC :-p
<bitigchi>
would be really cool
<bitigchi>
also if a native speaker would step up and set a dedicated twitter account, it would get much interaction. there's always a haiku related tweet in japanese every other day
<waddlesplash>
mt occasionally posts on his blog about Haiku stuff
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<a32bitmint[m]>
test test
<Niklas[m]>
Hello a32bitmint 🎉
<a32bitmint[m]>
heya
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<a32bitmint[m]>
yes i did in fact make a matrix account just for the haiku room
<a32bitmint[m]>
lol
<Niklas[m]>
That's great :D Matrix is much better than Discord
<a32bitmint[m]>
element is a little clunky feeling but it's okay
<Mrten[m]1>
a32bitmint: r reason as good as any
<Niklas[m]>
True,Element isn't my favorite either,but it comes closest to what the Mainstream wants
<a32bitmint[m]>
i always have to keep scrolling down every time a new message is sent
<Mrten[m]1>
a32bitmint: i really want a Haiku native Matrix client. I can barely make blue colors in a window in Haiku though so it might take a while 😂
<Niklas[m]>
Maybe try Quaternion as client on Haiku.It looks a bit oldschool but works really good
<a32bitmint[m]>
i don't use Haiku as my main OS
<a32bitmint[m]>
it's a little too niche for me lol
<Niklas[m]>
I want a native client,too,but I think that would be very much work and I'm just getting started with C++ programming
<Niklas[m]>
I use Haiku as main,but not only OS.I also have a computer with Linux and one with FreeBSD
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<a32bitmint[m]>
y'all may frown at this
<a32bitmint[m]>
but
<a32bitmint[m]>
my main OS is windows 11 xD
<Niklas[m]>
I read it in the forum already,it's disgusting
<waddlesplash>
lol
<a32bitmint[m]>
it primarily comes down to the fact that i play games ALOT and also use vr
<a32bitmint[m]>
windows just has the most support when it comes to gaming
<a32bitmint[m]>
linux is a close second
<waddlesplash>
I don't play games much anymore or use VR but I still mostly use Windows aside from Haiku
<Niklas[m]>
I'm too old for playing games ;) And I never have time
<a32bitmint[m]>
i've used windows 11 since day 1
<Mrten[m]1>
I use MacOS which is so slow these days. Too many effects!
<waddlesplash>
the two computers I use most don't even have baremetal linux installs, I got tired of repairing things
<a32bitmint[m]>
my only other computer at the moment is a clunky old dell
<a32bitmint[m]>
it's a dell inspiron 8100
<Mrten[m]1>
I've got a plan to get a computer to run Haiku on but no time yet...
<a32bitmint[m]>
it currently runs windows xp media center editon
<Mrten[m]1>
I will never run Windows, so sad state of that OS
<a32bitmint[m]>
i wanted to run haiku on it but the installer wouldn't boot
<Niklas[m]>
Win XP...well...that was still quality software :D
<waddlesplash>
a32bitmint[m]: what's the symptom
<a32bitmint[m]>
i posted about it on the forum
<a32bitmint[m]>
it freezes at the rocket and after like 3 mins shuts down
<Mrten[m]1>
Although my employer wants us to migrate to HP so I guess I'll run windows for a bit
<a32bitmint[m]>
sometimes it freezes with graphical glitches
<waddlesplash>
a32bitmint[m]: try failsafe video mode in bootloader
<waddlesplash>
or just go to a nightly build if you haven't already
<a32bitmint[m]>
haiku seems hard to boot on real hardware xD everything i've tried it on that isn't a vm has issues running it lol
<waddlesplash>
it's getting easier
<waddlesplash>
lots of incompatibilites with newer hardware have been resolved since the last release
<a32bitmint[m]>
one of the biggest issues i think is the lack of uefi
<a32bitmint[m]>
it only boots with bios
<Niklas[m]>
For me it runs perfectly fine on one computer and two laptops and works with some missing drivers on another computer and two laptops
<waddlesplash>
uh, both my machines here boot Haiku using UEFI
<a32bitmint[m]>
i once tried to run haiku on an asus transformer book but it would refuse to boot
<Niklas[m]>
Uefi is supported
<waddlesplash>
we've had a UEFI loader for some years now
<a32bitmint[m]>
odd
<waddlesplash>
it's only on 64-bit though
<a32bitmint[m]>
rufus always complained about something when i burned it to a usb
<a32bitmint[m]>
i can't do anything right now since i'm away but yeah
<a32bitmint[m]>
one of these days i wanna get... say, a netbook
<a32bitmint[m]>
and use it as a dedicated haiku lappy
<a32bitmint[m]>
i wanna keep the inspiron on xp for now lol
<a32bitmint[m]>
testing again
<a32bitmint[m]>
using a different client
<Niklas[m]>
It works 👍
<a32bitmint[m]>
cool cool
<a32bitmint[m]>
i just wanna say that i really like haiku as it is rn lol it's quite unique
<a32bitmint[m]>
i only have a few complaints about it
<a32bitmint[m]>
primarily, the lack of any sort of good graphics acceleration (at least in VMs) and the lack of sound
<Niklas[m]>
There's currently much work being done on graphics in nightly releases but it's still a long way until 3D acceleration and stuff like this finally works.Sound should work,however
<a32bitmint[m]>
i use vmware professional
<a32bitmint[m]>
vmware tools doesn't do much
<Niklas[m]>
The tools haven't been maintained for years AFAIK
<a32bitmint[m]>
it'd be nice to have updated vmware tools
<waddlesplash>
Niklas[m]: actually they got some significant fixes lately
<a32bitmint[m]>
i'd do some work for it but i know jack about programming lol
<a32bitmint[m]>
my best fields are drawing/gfx design and computer hardware
<a32bitmint[m]>
but if anything big happens that makes running haiku in vmware more pleasant then keep me posted
<waddlesplash>
you can at least get clipboard integration
<Niklas[m]>
waddlesplash: I know that graphics drivers were improved,but I think it's still 100% software-rendered,isn't it?
<waddlesplash>
and there is vmwarefs, but you have to manually mount at present
<waddlesplash>
Niklas[m]: yes
<a32bitmint[m]>
i have a decent computer so it feels off having haiku run so... slow lo
<a32bitmint[m]>
s/lo/lol/
<a32bitmint[m]>
s/lo/lol/
<a32bitmint[m]>
s/lo/lol/
<waddlesplash>
it shouldn't run slow, that's something else going wrong then
<waddlesplash>
Haiku is very snappy even on low-end hardware
<a32bitmint[m]>
i mean like
<waddlesplash>
are you running Haiku in VMware Hyper-V mode?
<a32bitmint[m]>
stuff like the cursor doesn't go at the same refresh rate as my monitor
<a32bitmint[m]>
even with vmware tools it's much slower
<waddlesplash>
again, are you running in VMware Hyper-V mode?
<a32bitmint[m]>
hyper-v mode...?
<waddlesplash>
because I saw that slowness here when I tried out Hyper-V mode
<Niklas[m]>
On native hardware the cursor works just fine.That must have something to do with your VM.
<waddlesplash>
yeah, when VMware uses WHPX/Hyper-V instead of its own hypervisor
<waddlesplash>
it does that if you have Windows Hypervisor Platform or Hyper-V enabled in Windows features
<a32bitmint[m]>
i don't know much about vmware stuff, aside from the basics
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<a32bitmint[m]>
i'll look into it later
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<waddlesplash>
just check if you have either of those enabled in windows settings
<waddlesplash>
if you are using WSL2 then they definitely will be
<a32bitmint[m]>
i've never seen hyper-v mentioned before in windows settings
<a32bitmint[m]>
but i'll look
<a32bitmint[m]>
would that make things run smoother?
<waddlesplash>
no, it makes them run slower
<a32bitmint[m]>
??
<waddlesplash>
at least in VMware. maybe Hyper-V itself runs Haiku faster
<a32bitmint[m]>
i'm getting confused lol
<a32bitmint[m]>
is hyper-v a good or bad thing for performance
<a32bitmint[m]>
in my tech class we learned a little bit about vms but only the basics
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<Not-5726>
[haiku/infrastructure] kallisti5 pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±1] https://git.io/J1K0A
<Not-5726>
[haiku/infrastructure] kallisti5 6d143d4 - compose/dev: Fix trac image, latest is no longer valid
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<kallisti5[m]>
a32bitmint: hardware virtualization extensions are a good thing and massively speed up virtual machines. They're called VT-x on Intel, and AMD-V on AMD.
<kallisti5[m]>
hyper-v is a Microsoft-centric thing. Professionally nobody uses hyper-v but windows / microsoft shops
<waddlesplash>
kallisti5[m]: more specifically you can only have one hypervisor on a machine
<waddlesplash>
if hyper-v/whpx is enabled, VMware has to use them instead of its own
<waddlesplash>
and that winds up being slower
<kallisti5[m]>
correct. hyper-v is essentially a virtulization subsystem like vmware, virtualbox, qemu
<kallisti5[m]>
if you're familiar with qemu + libvirt, vmware + vmware or hyper-v + vmware is equivalent
<kallisti5[m]>
the first thing is the underlying virtualization subsystem, the second one is the management interface on top of it.
<kallisti5[m]>
They all use VT-x and AMD-V processor virtulization speed-ups
<kallisti5[m]>
and hyper-v is generally not as optimized as vmware or qemu :-)
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<countryboy>
hello
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<a32bitmint[m]>
ohhh
<a32bitmint[m]>
i have amd-v on
<a32bitmint[m]>
i think vmware requires it
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<jezek2>
it doesn't help that preinstalled windows 11 on new machines has hyper-v enabled by default (it can be disabled as some "memory protection" thing somewhere deep in the settings), meanwhile virtualbox and vmware can coexist just fine (both running their VMs without problems)
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<countryboy>
no to the war of operating systems! peace !
<countryboy>
free software combined !!!
<countryboy>
united : the free software can share all together ...
<countryboy>
I wish the world that all free software is free and that everything can be shared between the various open source projects ...
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<countryboy>
becouse that projects are free and open ...
<countryboy>
open source = love => becouse it is free and gratis => a present ...
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<nephele>
kallisti5: we could totally do hyper-v guest support, to me that also sounds like a good idea tbh
<kallisti5[m]>
I mean.. i wouldn't use it lol
<nephele>
It's the standard virtualization for windows, it makes sense to support this as a guest since presumeably many windows users would try that first :3
<kallisti5[m]>
That's the rub.. not a lot of people here run windows. I'm not saying patches for hyper-v drivers would be rejected... just not many people knowledgeable to test
<kallisti5[m]>
I don't actually have a single windows machine at home
<nephele>
I don't have a windows machine either, otherwise i would have already started on hyper-v support, lol
<kallisti5[m]>
and hyper-v doesn't run on linux?
<nephele>
the host part? not that i know off
<nephele>
though looking at the spec it would likely be possible to implement that if one wanted too
<kallisti5[m]>
so how would we test it?
<nephele>
with a windows host
<kallisti5[m]>
but I don't have any windows machines :P
<kallisti5[m]>
will qemu / vmware / virtualbox present hyper-v devices to the guests?
<nephele>
maybe the Inc should own a single windows machine to send to developers to test it ;)
<kallisti5[m]>
no? lol.
<nephele>
i doubt it, the vmbus architecture is basically a command buffer in shared memory iirc
<kallisti5[m]>
My work supporting 300,000 agents doesn't have a single windows server
<nephele>
don't see a reason why qemu vmware or virtualbox would need to support that
<kallisti5[m]>
so we would have to deploy a one-off windows machine, pay a windows server license, just to test hyper-v.
<nephele>
yeah, i don't see windows servers as a thing here, one would likely only need a windows client computer to test the support
<nephele>
why bother with a server?
<kallisti5[m]>
security
<nephele>
security... of what?
<kallisti5[m]>
best practices dictate not throwing windows client machines onto public cloud networks
<nephele>
I honestly don't understand where "the cloud" came into that thought chain
<kallisti5[m]>
all of our servers are digital ocean vm's
<nephele>
just let someone who has a windows machine test the support, if it is developed and report back, like we do with all other drivers
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<nephele>
we don't need a server for this at all
<kallisti5[m]>
anyway the point of everything above is you're not going to find any motivated people within the current developer pool :-)
<nephele>
I am motivated, but not motivated enough to pay microsoft for a windows license
<nephele>
maybe if i can lend a computer to test this support on i would do it :D
<nephele>
making haiku inside the hyper-v vm run better than the desktop around it would be a big wowsers effect :)
<kallisti5[m]>
ok, so that's the only roadblock. To be honest, I wouldn't see the Haiku, Inc. very interested in buying a Windows license when Microsoft was one of the reasons BeOS was pushed out of business
<kallisti5[m]>
your next step though would be to write up a proposal and send it to Haiku, Inc.
<nephele>
I don't really see that as warranted either, it's not really a quarantee for the Inc that a driver would be developed, I can probably lend a computer from a relative or so at some point
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<nephele>
but then there is more interesting stuff to do before that, usually ;)
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<rennj>
roland D-50, yamaha DX7, casio cz-1 synthesizers
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<rennj>
now thats some vaporwave
<waddlesplash>
kallisti5[m]: it's a race
<waddlesplash>
those tests are not what you want at all
<waddlesplash>
(the old comment on the other ticket that is)
<waddlesplash>
probably there is yet another very subtle race in the condition variable code which only triggers under extremely specific circumstances
<waddlesplash>
guess I have to rework it yet again
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<Not-5726>
[haikuports/haikuporter] waddlesplash pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±1] https://git.io/J16Q8
<Not-5726>
[haikuports/haikuporter] waddlesplash f9131f3 - ShellScriptlets: Pass --wrap-mode=nodownload to meson by default.
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<poetry>
heya.
<przemub>
hey
<przemub>
Where can I suggest a change to a guide?
<przemub>
ah found it. it's in haiku/website now :)
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