<Hiryu>
Is uint32 a standard definition? I thought it was uint32_t
<phschafft>
uint32_t is the standard one.
<phschafft>
as per e.g. <stdint.h>
<Hiryu>
okay, so I'm not crazy :D
<phschafft>
also note:
<phschafft>
The <stdint.h> header is a subset of the <inttypes.h> header more suitable for use in freestanding environments, which might not support the formatted I/O functions. In some environments, if the formatted conversion support is not wanted, using this header instead of the <inttypes.h> header avoids defining such a large number of macros.
<phschafft>
which clarifies the difference between <stdint.h> and <inttypes.h>.
<phschafft>
also: The <inttypes.h> header shall include the <stdint.h> header.
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<Skipp_OSX>
unit32 is a BeOS creation that predates uint32_t
<Skipp_OSX>
The _t indicates a type, but they didn't follow that convention, even though they did for status_t for whatever reason.
<phschafft>
hm, it actually predates <stdint.h> as part of the standard ... just.
<phschafft>
that is unfortunate.
<phschafft>
<stdint.h> is C99 at least, not sure about earlier (semi-)standards.
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<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] 1124f672a0a9 - kernel/vm: Improve address range blocking for uninitialized/freed memory.
<augiedoggie>
cb88 likes to crap on Haiku at every opportunity :P
<augiedoggie>
in the comments
<Skipp_OSX>
I do wish that we took a more gentoo path with regards to package management but I didn't write the code so I can't really complain too much.
<Skipp_OSX>
We inherited the standard Linux package management issue that you can't have multiple versions of libraries installed at the same time that gentoo fixed and that can't become mainstream on Linux because the kernel devs won't accept their patches. But we are free to update our kernel similarly to support multiple library versions.
<waddlesplash>
we do support multiple versions of libraries installed at once though
<waddlesplash>
we do it via HaikuPorts
<waddlesplash>
multiple recipes with different base names and checks to make sure they don't conflict
<Skipp_OSX>
alright maybe that complaint i sort of date now then
<Skipp_OSX>
so you can have different versions of e.g. libpng for different apps simultaneously?
<augiedoggie>
the short answer is yes
<Skipp_OSX>
ok cool then
<augiedoggie>
there are several ways to do it, either by haikuports recipes with different names like png10 png12 etc... or the old BeOS way of putting the lib inside ./lib
<augiedoggie>
recently Begasus[m] reenabled the old tiff recipe as tiff4.4-4.4.0 because blender still needed it
<augiedoggie>
so, we have multiple versions of that right now
<augiedoggie>
that and the regular tiff-4.7.0
<Skipp_OSX>
hmmm ok then, I guess that addresses my complaint. But you'll never make cb88 happy.
<waddlesplash>
I want us to get back to the point where Haiku 32-bit boots and runs in under 100MB of RAM
<waddlesplash>
at that point, remaining complaints about "bloaty" memory usage will be mostly moot :P
<waddlesplash>
we already are below 128MB again
<waddlesplash>
and I've definitely shaved off a few MB since then
<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] 48bfa9ee2f08 - ramfs: Add some WriteLocked assertions.
<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] c9892ac20fef - ramfs: A write lock is needed when truncating files.
<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] 5ac03c371477 - ramfs: Clean up Iterator lockers API.
<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] ebc6bc8ed7a1 - ramfs: Add iterator locking to index classes.
<zdykstra>
Whoops, replied to something say back in the channel!
<Skipp_OSX>
ok but beta6 better say min less than 384MB
<Skipp_OSX>
My BeOS install runs on 32MB of RAM Haiku is bloatware OMG so dumb
<waddlesplash>
LOL
<waddlesplash>
it is probably possible to get Haiku that low actually, but you'd have to make a custom build and rip out a lot of features
<Skipp_OSX>
https://0x0.st/8oGa.png <= BeOS R5 Tracker memory usage after Find * 29340 KB after closing window 29308 KB.
<Skipp_OSX>
so whatever the bug is, it's the same bug on BeOS Tracker.
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<jezek2>
waddlesplash: is there some chart to see what parts take how much RAM? I remember using Linux on 16MB (and later 80MB) on a Pentium 1, it sounds totally surreal by todays standard or well even yesterdays :D
<waddlesplash>
there isn't really
<waddlesplash>
you could get partial statistics using the kernel slab stats from KDL
<waddlesplash>
and then listarea for a lot of the rest
<waddlesplash>
but this only tells some of the story
<waddlesplash>
I can tell you off the top of my head that, depending on filesizes, packagefs should actually use *less* RAM than non-packagefs, in many situations
<waddlesplash>
because every file in BFS needs an inode, which is usually 2KB
<waddlesplash>
and if you want to work with these files, you need all that in RAM
<waddlesplash>
whereas with packagefs, you can generally have a file's metadata in memory in about 2*96 plus a few more bytes
<waddlesplash>
... and that's on x64, 32-bit uses less
<waddlesplash>
now, you don't need every single file inode open in memory, and packagefs does keep all the package node informations loaded at once
<waddlesplash>
so there's a tradeoff there, but still
<waddlesplash>
besides that, what uses the most memory? hmm... well, ICU does use a fair amount, a few dozen MB, which is not a lot in modern standards but is huge by older ones
<jezek2>
interesting, haven't thought of this particular memory eater and it's very logical, and great that the packagefs works around it :)
<waddlesplash>
ASLR does cause more page table memory to be used
<waddlesplash>
and PAE means the whole kernel is using 64bit physical addrs even on 32bit
<waddlesplash>
if you disable PAE at compile time a lot of structures will shrink significantly in size
<waddlesplash>
there's also a fair number of datastructures that are some_data[SMP_MAX_CPUS]
<waddlesplash>
and that's 64 right now, so you waste some KB that way at a minimum
<jezek2>
ouch, yeah ICU is a very big dependency, as a language developer who cares about small binary sizes I will have to tackle Unicode somehow to not take such big sizes
<waddlesplash>
if you just want UTF8 it's no big deal, use a small library
<waddlesplash>
if you want proper language aware collation, yeah, that gets tricky
<waddlesplash>
since Linux and BSD and Haiku ship it with the OS it doesn't really matter if your app needs it, the OS has it
<waddlesplash>
but if you are trying to run in really low RAM then that's not great
<jezek2>
I haven't checked ICU in much detail, but isn't most of the data in the required tables? or is it also big in code? would be otherwise a good candidate for mmap
<jezek2>
yeah I've basically took a stance that I will support as much of Unicode as is practical in a small footprint and simple implementation (which sometimes require quite an effort to get it simple)
<jezek2>
for example I'm working on supporting of transparent grapheme clusters support by dynamic allocation (even working with GC) of the clusters so that I can have 1 "char" per grapheme cluster so that working with text is very easy :)
<jezek2>
it's because I use full 32bit for characters internally and can use the negative values for such allocations
<jezek2>
this allow to not worry about it in a rich text or editor components, etc. that can be already quite complex
<jezek2>
will have to find more tricks how to handle Unicode stuff like this :)
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<jezek2>
and to prevent eating too much memory or handling DoS attacks it is limited to say 10000 such allocations at maximum and I think I've determined max of 6 Unicode codepoints per cluster is sufficient for legitimate usages, after that you'll get just the 1 char = 1 code point
<waddlesplash>
jezek2: ICU already uses mmap
<waddlesplash>
for the data, at least in the way we have it set up
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<nekobot>
• Begasus (56493904): tokodon, bump version (#11656)
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<andreasdr[m]>
Arrr Begasus!
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<nephele_xmpp>
Good day my fellow Haikuziians
<andreasdr[m]>
Hi there :)
<nephele_xmpp>
hello matrix user !
<Begasus>
hi nephele_xmpp :)
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<Anarchos>
hello
<Anarchos>
how to send a patch to haikuports ?
<Begasus>
Hi Anarchos, create a PR?
<Anarchos>
ok
<Anarchos>
Begasus who will review the patch ? You ?
<Begasus>
amongst others yes :)
<Begasus>
well, I mostly review builds with them to see if nothing gets broken
<Anarchos>
Begasus ok i will tell you when it will be done, cause i have a doubt on the patch : text seems to be in double in the patch and i don't know why
<Begasus>
I'll receive an email when a PR is filed Anarchos, so I'll see it popping up :)
<Anarchos>
it is a really tiny patch for rlwrap (the new version solves a mumbling echoing begin and last text, but nobody noticed it on haiku)
<Begasus>
nobody complained that RKWard is broken atm due to broken build for R on buildmasters, you never know who is using it
<Begasus[m]>
Meanwhile NeoChat master branch is still up and running here :D
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<Begasus>
no go on Zig :)
<Begasus>
"Zig requires LLVM to be built with all default targets enabled"
<Begasus>
afk
<bjorkint0sh>
yep. whatever you need is on the next VM that's not installed.
<Anarchos>
Begasus PR done. Could you verify why there is doublon in the patchset , with date from 2022 and 2025 ?
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<BrunoSpr>
hello and good morning HAIKU-World
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<Begasus[m]>
Hi BrunoSpr
<BrunoSpr>
Begasus, how did you do that?
<BrunoSpr>
Just got a luminanceHDR download
<BrunoSpr>
nice
<BrunoSpr>
Just at restart
<BrunoSpr>
or reboot...
<Begasus[m]>
Anarchos, could you drop the old recipe/patchset in that PR, can't see the diff now :)
<Anarchos>
Begasus[m] weird that the old was commit with
<Begasus>
it's not included as it is already in the repo :)
<Anarchos>
Begasus we don't keep old versions , just in case ?
<Anarchos>
Begasus can i edit those files directly on github ?
<Begasus>
haven't checked if this is used by anything else, if not and it's working as expected no need to keep the older around Anarchos
<Begasus>
Anarchos, maybe you could edit them directly, but you still need to be sure it's working localy :)
<Anarchos>
Begasus ok
<Begasus>
patch looks weird yes, seems to be doing things double?
<Anarchos>
Begasus yes i erased the first part too. Now rebuilding to check.
<BrunoSpr>
Hello all, what is this common LISP all about, why is there so much interrest in it? What can you do with it?
<Begasus>
Anarchos, how do I check this?
<Begasus>
loose ends I guess BrunoSpr :)
<Anarchos>
BrunoSpr lisp is a very old language, used for very fancy things at those times (emacs, interlisp/medley, macsyma ...)
<bjorkint0sh>
BrunoSpr: common lisp was created in the 1980s (1984 was first release of the standard), to unify the many other lisps that had come into existence.
<bjorkint0sh>
it is a stupendous language of extraordinary capabilities and is worth learning well.
<Begasus>
see they can explain it better :D
<bjorkint0sh>
lisp itself has existed since 1959 and was completely described in several papers by John McCarthy.
<bjorkint0sh>
it has a very tiny core upon which you can build the rest of the language if you so wish. it was also one of the first languages to have automatic garbage collection.
<phschafft>
lisp is like the retro when retro is the norm.
<bjorkint0sh>
BrunoSpr: it was also the other "AI language" during the GOFAI era, as John McCarthy was one of the people who coined the very word "AI" at a conference in Dartmouth. It was loosely based on the lambda calculus of Alonzo Church.
<bjorkint0sh>
Today, common lisp has spawned numerous implementations and inspired many language creators all over the world.
<Anarchos>
Begasus i updated my PR
<bjorkint0sh>
one of its most popular uses was in autolisp for Autocad
<bjorkint0sh>
it is still actively maintained and used. if you want to try it out, there's SBCL, among others.
<Begasus>
Anarchos: /src/ptytty.c ... not needed anymore?
<Anarchos>
bjorkint0sh and sbcl compiles natively to assembly, impressive !
<bjorkint0sh>
there are many many introductory books. Scheme was also inspired directly by it.
<Begasus>
also, delete the old recipe in the process Anarchos (and adjust SOURCE_URI, commented there)
<bjorkint0sh>
Anarchos: at a point in time, there were machines which run lisp natively. they were lisp machines! but they mainly exist as virtual machines now, as the actual hardware implementations are difficult to find.
<Anarchos>
bjorkint0sh symbolics machine, famous for being the very first .com URL
<bjorkint0sh>
right.
<bjorkint0sh>
they were a little too far ahead of the time.
<bjorkint0sh>
reddit was originally written in lisp, before they migrated to python.
<Begasus>
Just like BeOS! :)
<Anarchos>
Begasus yes you"re right
<Anarchos>
Begasus can't understand why it disappeared !
<BrunoSpr>
Ah, ok I got it was LISP is and was... but how could it be valuable to HAIKU? Thanks all for explaination!
<Begasus>
probably forgot it with "git add ..." Anarchos :)
<Begasus>
BrunoSpr, to Haiku, maybe not, but for users it could still be interesting
<BrunoSpr>
So it is like a fashion coming and going!?
<Begasus>
seeing it's been around for over 40 years ... :)
<bjorkint0sh>
BrunoSpr: well, it's a programming language isn't it? so someone coming from lisp, can be productive in haiku.
<bjorkint0sh>
without having to learn something else. same reason other languages are ported over.
<Anarchos>
Begasus weird because ptytty.c comes from the source archive
<Anarchos>
jobs
<Begasus>
we still have R language, no one noticed it being broken on the buildmasters it seems :)
<Begasus>
it's default in the archive Anarchos
<bjorkint0sh>
R was inspired by Scheme, Xlisp-Stat, and S!
<Anarchos>
bjorkint0sh and apl if i recall
<bjorkint0sh>
not so much APL.
<dovsienko>
vintage IT experts may be interested to learn that OpenVMS had a release this month, which is available for non-commercial use using a 1-year licence
<bjorkint0sh>
I have a bunch of their publications here in front of me, including a number of books on APL.
<bjorkint0sh>
if it were inspired by APL, it would be lovely.
<bjorkint0sh>
their being the creators of S and R.
<dovsienko>
(runs on AMD64 as well)
<bjorkint0sh>
And Xlisp-Stat.
<bjorkint0sh>
and Xlisp, for that matter.
<dovsienko>
Lisp was a major pain in the neck for me in the university, I barely managed to pass the course
<bjorkint0sh>
dovsienko: what were they teaching with it?
<dovsienko>
3D graphics was easier, I did an OpenGL project on BeOS
<dovsienko>
bjorkint0sh: functional programming, of course
<bjorkint0sh>
oh Common Lisp is a multi-paradigm language, but there are surely better functional languages than it.
<bjorkint0sh>
much much better ones.
<Anarchos>
Begasus source uri seems fine
<bjorkint0sh>
Scheme, for instance.
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<bjorkint0sh>
SML, Haskell, Miranda, Hope...
<bjorkint0sh>
OCaml...
<Anarchos>
bjorkint0sh i love to program in Ocaml
<bjorkint0sh>
F#
<Anarchos>
bjorkint0sh i was the first to port it to beos and haiku
<bjorkint0sh>
wow!
<bjorkint0sh>
Anarchos: what was the process like?
<Anarchos>
bjorkint0sh just adapt some posix/bash/configure stuff
<bjorkint0sh>
cool.
<Anarchos>
bjorkint0sh recently i ported the Coq gui
<Anarchos>
(thanks of help of begasus for gtk3)
<bjorkint0sh>
but I thought the Haiku/Beos GUI was much better than gtk?
<Anarchos>
bjorkint0sh if you feel skilled enough to recode a native GUI for coq, please do :)
<bjorkint0sh>
oh noooo.
<bjorkint0sh>
Not I.
* bjorkint0sh
feels unskilled right now.
<Anarchos>
bjorkint0sh i could port, but not recode
<Anarchos>
anyway nobody uses coq on haiku, soooo
<bjorkint0sh>
Anarchos: you gotta write about it. I didn't know it existed at all on Haiku.
<bjorkint0sh>
... if you haven't already.
<Anarchos>
bjorkint0sh i posted some screenshots to prove it
<Anarchos>
bjorkint0sh my onworking project for verifying latex, written in ocaml with images in latex
<BrunoSpr>
I learned html, js, python, basica, bit pascal thats it
<Begasus>
Anarchos, I made a suggestion on that line (SOURCE_URI) :)
<BrunoSpr>
I am not a programmer!
<Anarchos>
Begasus after downlad and after rlwrap- ?
<bjorkint0sh>
BrunoSpr: basically, it is one of those languages which can be investigated all the way to lambda calculus if you so choose (especially from the Scheme variant). meaning that its design and definition are completely independent of any particle computer architecture.
<Begasus>
Anarchos, you could do it manualy or click on "commit suggestion" :)
<Begasus>
Anarchos?
<Begasus>
just the line for SOURCE_URI in the recipe*
<BrunoSpr>
bjorkint0sh, at least I teached my son python 15 years ago, now he is happy he had learned it so early, and he is still using it daily
<bjorkint0sh>
BrunoSpr: the other thing about it is, the syntax of the language is so ridiculously simple that a program is its own data, meaning that you can feed a lisp program to another lisp program and process it.
<bjorkint0sh>
but I digress. Python used to be a nice first language, now it's ... !!!TITANABOA!!! massive with its own gravitational force.
<BrunoSpr>
bjorkint0sh, so next time I will speak with my son about LISP, and tell him to have a look at it
<bjorkint0sh>
BrunoSpr: yes. Racket (if you want to go the scheme-ish route), or SBCL if you want to use common lisp.
<BrunoSpr>
bjorkint0sh, so I will advice him Racket?
<bjorkint0sh>
Sure.
<BrunoSpr>
What is used in University physics most?
<BrunoSpr>
bjorkint0sh, thanks I will write it down, thanks
<bjorkint0sh>
BrunoSpr: wouldn't you know it, Python :-|
<bjorkint0sh>
and Fortran.
<Anarchos>
Begasus done (i also changed my pseudo :)
<Begasus>
BrunoSpr, finished up so far with luminance_hdr-2.6.1.1, mind checking it before I push it to haikuports?
<BrunoSpr>
bjorkint0sh, never tried Fortran, I just came across python 20years ago... by recommendation and accident
<waddlesplash>
bbjimmy: We don't support writing to exfat unfortunately
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<waddlesplash>
it's a totally different FS than FAT
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<dovsienko>
waddlesplash: thank you for making the RAMFS improvements
<dovsienko>
I tried to reduce the steps to reproduce the remaining breakage to "stress-ng --temp-path=/boot/system/var/shared_memory --touch 4", but it is not reproducing it
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<dovsienko>
it probably uses a different code path from that of Perl file operations
<bbjimmy>
Unfortunately this is where all my photos are stored, on the exfat drive. I was hoping to use haiku to move more photos from my camera to my storage drive.
<bbjimmy>
I guess I have to boot up Windows. :(
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<BrunoSpr>
bbjimmy, yes of course, if you need the photos there
<BrunoSpr>
make a copy and transfere them to #haiku
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<waddlesplash>
dovsienko: of course. Your new crash is probably unrelated to the previous one but no need to open a second ticket, I'll just investigate as is
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<geniodiabolico>
Finally got wifi working. The Realtek RTL8191SE that came with the laptop is not supported and the Asus dongle I had lying around also didn't work. I looked up in the Besly DB one that would work so I bought a $10 TP-Link. I can finally get rid of this long cord in my living room.
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* bjorkint0sh
loves long cords.
<bjorkint0sh>
almost no wifi outtages :-D
<geniodiabolico>
It's real fun when the old blind dog pulls the laptop off the table
<bjorkint0sh>
tsk tsk. gotta lay the wires right.
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<waddlesplash>
dovsienko: seems that's another race somehow
<waddlesplash>
been running for a while here with =16 on a 4-core VM with a DEBUG=1 kernel and ramfs and it hasn't reproduced yet
<waddlesplash>
but the other open ramfs KDL doesn't reproduce this way either, or at least I haven't managed that yet
<waddlesplash>
I guess I'll have to see about making a release+debuginfo build and hope it reproduces then
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<geniodiabolico>
I'm making a commit against tickert 9640, the -Werror one. Do I use the "Fixes: #9640" syntax since it doesn't conclude the ticket or is there another term for "This addresses but does not complete the ticket."
<geniodiabolico>
9460 that is
<Skipp_OSX>
Fixes <insert fixed part here> part of #9460 e.g. Fixes disk part of #9460
<dovsienko>
waddlesplash: I've been cleaning the script up, if nothing else breaks on another OS, it will be running libpcap tests, so there will be a straightforward reproducer if the problem still stands
<geniodiabolico>
Skipp_OSX: thanks
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<HaikuUser>
nephele_xmpp, thanks for answer me
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<HaikuUser>
nephele_xmpp, I´ll try to send a email to emacs maintenair
<HaikuUser>
btw, I love IRC and I hate slack or discord
<Anarchos>
bjorkint0sh good thanks, it was a decaffeinated.
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<mikezt>
hello
<zard>
Hello mikezt :)
<zard>
Except I'm heading off now, so... goodbye mikezt as well :P
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<mikezt>
:-)
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<Begasus>
closing down here
<Begasus>
cu peeps!
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<gordonjcp>
kallisti5[m]: why would that even be relevant?
<gordonjcp>
you don't need to do anything for it
<waddlesplash>
gordonjcp: please read the discussion linked in the post
<waddlesplash>
at Lobsters and elsewhere
<gordonjcp>
waddlesplash: yes, it's irrelevant
<gordonjcp>
it doesn't apply
<waddlesplash>
that's not the conclusion of quite a lot of people
<waddlesplash>
including us, thus far
<gordonjcp>
okay, well
<gordonjcp>
your decision, I guess
<waddlesplash>
nobody has satisfactorily demonstrated to Lobsters, or the Lobsters users (note the one in the reply that used to work for a MEP)
<gordonjcp>
I'm in the UK, I run several forums, I'm not doing anything about it
<waddlesplash>
that it doesn't apply
<gordonjcp>
it's yet another unworkable law, that cannot be enforced or applied
<waddlesplash>
and that will stop the UK from trying to enforce and apply it?
<waddlesplash>
history suggests "no"
<waddlesplash>
if the UK government is going to behave irrationally, that's unfortunate, but we kind of can't ignore it
<gordonjcp>
why?
<waddlesplash>
because the law has absolutely no carveouts even for foreign entities, or for small outfits?
<gordonjcp>
everyone else is going to
<waddlesplash>
great, Lobsters and others aren't
<nephele_xmpp>
> it's yet another unworkable law, that cannot be enforced or applied
<nephele_xmpp>
Sure it can be enforced. do this or be fined. wether the requirements are rational or not do not matter
<gordonjcp>
yes, but lobsters is run by people who are somewhat distanced from reality, at best
<gordonjcp>
nephele_xmpp: again, there's no way to actually do that
<kallisti5[m]>
We operate a not for profit company. We cant put 100's of thousands of dollars of donated capitol at risk.
<kallisti5[m]>
That's the reason. I'm not willing to risk the hard donated funds of people globally
<kallisti5[m]>
The board agrees
<gordonjcp>
oh well
<kallisti5[m]>
If case law shows that it's unenforceable.. then we'll remove the block
<waddlesplash>
yes
<kallisti5[m]>
But without guidance, the OSA as it's written has no limits on size or scope. Everything is in scope
<gordonjcp>
this sounds like an insane decision, but I don't expect anything less from Lobsters
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<waddlesplash>
okay, well, it's not just them.
<gordonjcp>
the last run-in I had with that crowd they were screaming about how I'd go to jail for breaking FCC regulations, so I don't tend to take their opinions on law very seriously
<waddlesplash>
we are going to operate under the assumption that a law means what it says
<waddlesplash>
until proven otherwise
<Anarchos>
kallisti5[m] it reminds when french government tried to pass a law asking ISP to 'log all content of traffic' :) As all ISP showed them it was unfeasible, they abnadon, but it took months of fear ....
<Anarchos>
waddlesplash as latins said : 'dura lex , sed lex'
<nipos>
It's so easy to use Tor or a VPN and it's better for privacy anyway,so just do it...
<gordonjcp>
Anarchos: exactly
<Anarchos>
geoblocking is the best way : when too much will complain that GB is losing innovation, maybe they will go back
<nipos>
pkgman install tor - tor - all_proxy=socks5h://127.0.0.1:9050 WebPositive - Geoblocking gone,have fun!
<Anarchos>
gordonjcp not sure : for police here, using tor is a big red flag for them to imagine you engaged in illegal activities. Though the right to privacy of communications is written in constitution (or declaration of rights, i don't remember)
* Anarchos
is tired as an anarchist to have to give law lessons to law enforcement people...) :)
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<gordonjcp>
Anarchos: in the UK you can pretty much do whatever you like as long as you're not making a nuisance of yourself
<Anarchos>
gordonjcp even call for republic and end monarchy ? :)))
<gordonjcp>
Anarchos: yes, most people want an end to the monarchy
<Anarchos>
gordonjcp the other way, nigel farage and boris johnson made a lot of nuisance and pretty much nobody told them ;)
<nephele_xmpp>
> It's so easy to use Tor or a VPN and it's better for privacy anyway,so just do it...
<nephele_xmpp>
Don’t tell people that a VPN is better for privacy. Please.
<gordonjcp>
Anarchos: like, if you hear of someone in the UK getting done for possession of some tiny amount of cannabis, they didn't get done for possessing a tiny bit of cannabis, they got done for making a nuisance of themselves with it
<gordonjcp>
if they'd just gone and quietly smoked it in the park without making a scene, they'd have been left alone
<Anarchos>
nephele_xmpp but tor and vpn consumes precious ressources on our poor computers and power grid !
<gordonjcp>
nephele_xmpp: depends on the VPN surely
<gordonjcp>
stuff like NordVPN, definitely not
<nipos>
nephele_xmpp: Tor is a lot better,but if you choose the right VPN provider,it can be better than nothing
<nephele_xmpp>
I don’t think it does. You can increase your privacy by basically proxying requests. But VPN “providers” basically use the same scare tactics as antivirus firms do to try and get you to buy a service
<Anarchos>
anyway, we can't get angry to haiku inc. to respect law, if the law is notcriminal
<nipos>
The same VPN servers are used by many people,so you can hide your traffic in the masses.But sometimes VPN providers do some logging,so I wouldn't really feel safe with it.I personally prefer Tor
<gordonjcp>
nephele_xmpp: they are also expensive - NordVPN is about 13 quid a month, for which you could buy a very inexpensive VPS somewhere like Finland
<kallisti5[m]>
As soon as we have case law to support the notion that either Haiku, Inc. in the US is not at risk, or some loophole for small sites i'll be the first person to excitedly unblock the UK from those services
<kallisti5[m]>
I have a lifetime Windscribe VPN subscription which is neat. Early adopter, they became a big company and has respected the early lifetime accounts
<waddlesplash>
gordonjcp: An unequally and arbitrarily enforced law is an injustice in and of itself. Is there a UK law that says "BTW we won't enforce any of these if you aren't a nuisance"?
<nephele_xmpp>
nipos: that part of a vpn, the anonymize in the masses, does *not* require a vpn. If it is a vpn you can connect to other computers in the network, and they could see your internal IP. and i don’t see any reason why you would want that for this usecase
<kallisti5[m]>
Spent like $60 for it 8 years ago
<waddlesplash>
gordonjcp: My understanding is "no". And therefore the selective enforcement is in fact arbitrary and bad
<gordonjcp>
waddlesplash: no, it's just impossible to take people to court
<waddlesplash>
that doesn't contradict what I said
<kallisti5[m]>
gordonjcp: doesn't the UK have the "default judgement" stuff?
<waddlesplash>
a law that is selectively enforced entirely at the pleasure of the enforcers is just a softer kind of tyranny
<kallisti5[m]>
aka, you don't show up or respond to a legal accusation, the court gives a default judgement in the accuser's favor.
<kallisti5[m]>
I don't want a 22 million lawsuit hanging over Haiku's head in the UK, even if it's "unenforceable"
<gordonjcp>
kallisti5[m]: in theory, but what actually happens is that if everyone isn't present at the court date it gets thrown out
<waddlesplash>
"in theory"
<waddlesplash>
so once again, this depends on the pleasure of the legal system
<waddlesplash>
and not anything actually written in law
<gordonjcp>
this is why, for example, people literally get away with murder
<waddlesplash>
unwritten norms are very malleable
<gordonjcp>
I think you overestimate how effective the legal system in the UK is
<kallisti5[m]>
gordonjcp: want to know something unsettling?
<kallisti5[m]>
Matrix is a UK company and offers "user-to-user" services
<kallisti5[m]>
It'll be interesting to watch what they do.
<gordonjcp>
what's "unsettling" about that?
<waddlesplash>
gordonjcp: that's the problem, they're not very effective, and that's why this is bad. Because if the system was effective then everyone would say "this law is terrible" and it would get replaced. But it's not effective, so you have terrible laws that just last for a long time until there's a cause celebre or something that goes weirdly because of how the law is written. Or people are outraged but nothing's done because oh well,
<waddlesplash>
the law's always been like that
<waddlesplash>
a harsh law strictly enforced gets replaced rapidly, because everyone recognizes it's harsh
<gordonjcp>
this is the state of UK law
<waddlesplash>
a harsh law loosely enforced if at all just lurks until someone decides to weaponize it
<waddlesplash>
and we'd rather just not play that game
<gordonjcp>
I'm just entering year 4 of trying to get a non-harrassement order enforced against someone
<waddlesplash>
yes, your country seems to not be doing so well
<gordonjcp>
it's been in court about six times but every time either the defendant, the defence solicitor, or one or other of the witnesses (generally police officers) have failed to turn up
<waddlesplash>
so, we're sorry, but we're going to take some steps to insulate ourselves from your brokenness. Even if we're small and theoretically not a target for the powers that be, we'd rather not take the risk.
<kallisti5[m]>
Sounds like brexit is going well 😆
<gordonjcp>
meanwhile in that same timeframe someone else being harrassed by the same person as I am has paid someone to go round and break their legs
<waddlesplash>
heh, there was an interesting comment on Lobsters about that
<waddlesplash>
kallisti5[m]: apparently the class of people that used to work on UK<->EU legal compliance didn't want to see themselves out of jobs, so now they write horribly convolunted laws that are just for the UK instead. lol
<gordonjcp>
the police got involved in that, and the entire line of questioning amounted to "did you pay <that guy> to break <that other guy>'s legs?" "No, that's a stupid thing to say, of course not" "Right you are then, no case to answer"
<waddlesplash>
gordonjcp: all this is demonstrating to me is that your system is even more broken and all the more reason for us to shield ourselves from it.
<gordonjcp>
would've been better to break their telephone-dialling finger, tbh, but there you go, you take the small wins
<gordonjcp>
waddlesplash: the long and short of it is, this law is going nowhere
<waddlesplash>
... except where the powers that be want to selectively enforce it.
<gordonjcp>
same as the last time they tried to do this, and the time before, and the time before.
<waddlesplash>
and that's the risk we don't want to take
<nephele_xmpp>
I’d rather not have the only defense ammount to “don’t worry, our courts are incompetent”
<waddlesplash>
yes
<dovsienko>
clearly this argument is mostly possible because people forgot about the concept of "jurisdiction"
<dovsienko>
there are 200 something countries in the world, and quite some already have had laws regulating or censoring the Internet for a long time
<waddlesplash>
yes, but for the most part those countries are not "first-world" and their internet censorship laws are understood as being powerless outside such places
<dovsienko>
so a new national legislation overseas (from the USA point of view) does not introduce any new risks, as far as I can conclude
<kallisti5[m]>
Five eyes baby
<waddlesplash>
yes
<dovsienko>
that's an intelligence alliance, not a jurisdiction
<nephele_xmpp>
10. Advertisements
<nephele_xmpp>
Haiku reserves the right to display advertisements on your content unless you have purchased an Ad-free Upgrade or a Services account.
<kallisti5[m]>
lord have mercy. That shouldn't be in there
<kallisti5[m]>
will remove
<dovsienko>
time to read the EULA!
<kallisti5[m]>
It's a template :-)
<nephele_xmpp>
I got a good laugh out of it! :D
<gordonjcp>
nephele_xmpp: rofl
<kallisti5[m]>
10 has been removed. We'll never show ad's
<kallisti5[m]>
12 is relevant to the UK block though :P
<nephele_xmpp>
👍❤️
<gordonjcp>
I guess I shouldn't complain about forums geoblocking stuff though since I block the whole of the Russian Federation and Israel
<gordonjcp>
because I don't really want to have to delete 200 new users every morning each with about 200 posts of "1488 we are coming for your children next" kind of thing
<nephele_xmpp>
The “atleast 13 years old” part is also unfortunate, I guess this is to do with data protection?
<kallisti5[m]>
yeah.. that's pretty universal for forums
<gordonjcp>
that's been a thing since the Myspace days, hasn't it?
<gordonjcp>
it's an American law
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<kallisti5[m]>
I think so.. i see it a lot
<waddlesplash>
yes
<Anarchos>
nephele_xmpp silly law : every kids i know lie on their age to get a facebook account :)
<nephele_xmpp>
Jeez, facebook 🙄
<nephele_xmpp>
kallisti5: the new 10. also has “regardless of updates purchased” at the end
<nephele_xmpp>
I guess this is because wordpress sells upgrades or something?
<kallisti5[m]>
😥
<kallisti5[m]>
Most likely. None of it is intention, it's mostly to comply with GDPR
<kallisti5[m]>
s/intention/intentional/
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<kallisti5[m]>
GDPR is annoying, but at least sane for the most part
<dovsienko>
GDPR does not work as intended because companies that want to sell your personal data neutralise it in two simple moves:
<dovsienko>
1. "we will only use your personal data for legitimate purposes and store it only as long as is necessary"
<dovsienko>
2. "out legitimate purposes can be anything and it will be necessary to keep a copy of your personal data indefinitely long"
<dovsienko>
s/out/our/
<nephele_xmpp>
no. 2. is illegal
<dovsienko>
3. "if you do not accept these terms, you have 2 business days to stop using our services"
<dovsienko>
or the likes
<nephele_xmpp>
also illegal
<nephele_xmpp>
*shrug*
<dovsienko>
whether illegal or not, this is what the practice is, and big companies have big legal departments with big budgets to brush your off
<nephele_xmpp>
… lol
<dovsienko>
so GDPR is not really influencing the actual flow of personal data as much as it seems
<gordonjcp>
in the mean time GDPR is a bit like the VPN companies and antivirus companies
<gordonjcp>
and shyster solicitors will shake down organisations with scare tactics
<dovsienko>
forgot the "secure e-mail" companies too
<gordonjcp>
at work our legal team were wildly concerned that the IPAM software I run might breach GDPR because it's got the IP addresses and physical addresses of fire stations in it
<gordonjcp>
because of exactly such tactics
<gordonjcp>
anyway there were a lot of "meetings that should be an email"
<dovsienko>
well, addresses of fire stations is a public information in the first place
<gordonjcp>
it's a big building with red doors and "FIRE STATION" in big letters on the front
<gordonjcp>
they're not exactly secret
<gordonjcp>
well, okay, one is, but it's in an army base somewhere and not my problem
<gordonjcp>
I don't have to fix it
<dovsienko>
have you considered the legal team actually had at least some point?
<nekobot>
• jackburton79 (de5aee25): Genio: added dependency to noto_emoji (#11659)…
<nephele_xmpp>
huh. Pulling in specific fonts is a bit wierd. That reminds me, Haiku is supposed to pull in this specific fonts in it’s deps but currently doesn't
<Skipp_OSX>
hey did you get a chance to test my Deskbar patch yet nephew?
<Skipp_OSX>
autocorrect...
<nephele_xmpp>
Skipp_OSX: Not yet, sorry :( my gpu part still hasen’t arrived
<Skipp_OSX>
k
<nephele_xmpp>
kallisti5: the TOS links to an article from the new yorker in section 13
<nephele_xmpp>
what a mess
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<Anarchos>
is the coding sprint virtual or will it be located somewhere ?
<nephele_xmpp>
It’s in an AirBnB
<nephele_xmpp>
We can probably set it up so people can join virtually in some capaccity though
<nephele_xmpp>
maybe with jitsi again or something
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<Anarchos>
nephele_xmpp sorry to be so naive, but in which country will it take place ?
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