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<HaikuUser>
So as I've been using IceWeasel more lately, I've noticed that it spawns a bunch of processes which can clog up the Team monitor (https://0x0.st/8zbt.png); I've started trying to implement a collapsible view similar to how Windows Task Manager does it (https://0x0.st/8zby.jpg). Is this something I can submit as a patch or do people like it the way it is?
<waddlesplash>
we should likely clean up ProcessController and TeamMonitor
<waddlesplash>
and maybe create a more "Task Manager"-like application
<waddlesplash>
SystemManager is nice, probably a good thing to pull inspiration from as well
<HaikuUser>
x512[m]: Yes, that's basically what I was thinking of, albeit much simpler
<HaikuUser>
waddlesplash: I suppose I'll just finish what I'm working on and submit it then
<x512[m]>
waddlesplash There are already multiple 3rd-party task manager applications existing.
<waddlesplash>
yes, I know. but none are exactly like what we currently have with ProcessController
<waddlesplash>
or truly equivalent
<x512[m]>
I think SystemManager is the only one that can show process tree.
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<Skipp_OSX>
I guess we haven't had to update Team Monitor so far because we haven't had a multi-process app like Iceweasel.
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<scanty>
everyone still getting that cursor bug with iceweasel?
<HaikuUser>
Skipp_OSX: QTWebEngine (Falkon) behaves similarly, though it's not as bad - https://0x0.st/8zbJ.png
<scanty>
how do you get those yellow borders around windows?
<zdykstra>
It's a color/appearance option
<zdykstra>
Just change the window border color to match the tab color
<HaikuUser>
scanty: Preferences > Appearance > Colors > deselect automatic, then set Window border to 255 203 0
<Skipp_OSX>
mouse bug has been an issue in GLTeapot since forever, maybe this will finally be the incentive necessary to implement hardware cursor support.
<scanty>
HaikuUser: thanks.
<scanty>
Skipp_OSX: hard cursor would be nice. i have a similar bug to iceweasel in my emulator with DirectWindow
<waddlesplash>
we already have hardware cursor
<waddlesplash>
but most drivers don't support it
<scanty>
ah
<x512[m]>
Remainder: BDirectWindow is obsolete and may stop working when modern hardware acceleration will be implemented.
<scanty>
oh really?
<Skipp_OSX>
whatever it takes x512 that's fine by me
<scanty>
is there anything that would replace it, or is it best to just throw a BBitmap onto a view and draw into it?
<scanty>
because that's really easy :^)
<Skipp_OSX>
I imagine single buffering app_server drawing is the root cause of the flashing
<scanty>
my cursor doesn't flash, it just leaves a trail of black rectangles over the windows contents
<x512[m]>
Modern display output use framebuffer double buffering and swap framebuffer on each screen update. This behavior is incompatible with BDirectWindow. Second problem is that GPUs prefer special tiled format for framebuffer that increase rendering efficiency. That tiled format is GPU vendor specific and not supported by BDirectWindow.
<Skipp_OSX>
I mean in GLTeapot
<x512[m]>
Yes, correct way is to use DrawBitmap or SetViewBitmap.
<Skipp_OSX>
makes sense
<scanty>
hrm, that makes my life a lot easier.
<x512[m]>
It can be implemented with hardware acceleration in future. Inclyding GPU memory backed BBitmap.
<Skipp_OSX>
oooooo
<scanty>
BBitmap+overlay is really nice.
<scanty>
would be*\
<scanty>
it was nice in BeOS
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<scanty>
with modern hardware, we might benefit from designing a new Game Kit, but that would be much further down the line, methinks.
<scanty>
BView+overlay, rather, iirc.
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<x512[m]>
I do not think that designing 3D acceleration API from scratch like Apple Metal is a good idea because Haiku have no resources to design API and implement drivers. So OpenGL/Vulkan can be used. But Haiku can implement integration of BView/BBitmap with OpenGL/Vulkan and implement hardware accelerated 2D drawing.
<Skipp_OSX>
I'm not even sure that Apple deigning a 3D acceleration API from scratch like Apple Metal is a good idea for Apple.
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<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] f27c94e4d3ec - kernel/fs: Don't hold the hot-vnodes lock too long in free_unused_vnodes.
* Begasus
has a thing with cmake :)
<x512[m]>
CMake have obscure syntax.
<andreasdr[m]>
Yes.
<andreasdr[m]>
Using plain old Makefiles still.
<andreasdr[m]>
Works but also obscure syntax :DDD
<Begasus>
once you know where to hunt and track cmake it's not that bad, but granted, meson is nice too
<Begasus>
or you could go with cargo :)
<x512[m]>
Cargo is for Rust, no? Does it work for C++?
<Begasus>
ah, my bad there (was thinkiing build systems) :)
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<Begasus[m]>
k, looks like I need to split that mediaino recipe (checked at rerpology where others do it also), getting lots of undefined references ...
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<Faustin>
heyo i got a quick question
<Faustin>
i try Haiku in virtual box and try to figure out, how to access a CD in Haiku... i dont know where to get to the point its mounted or figure that even out
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<gordonjcp>
andreasdr[m]: I tried waf for a while, but ended up switching everything to just normal Makefiles
<gordonjcp>
andreasdr[m]: then I tried cmake, but ended up switching everything to just normal Makefiles
<gordonjcp>
andreasdr[m]: Meson seems pretty popular and I used that for a project, but pretty soon I ende dup just using normal Makefiles
<gordonjcp>
you may be sensing a pattern here
<gordonjcp>
Makefiles - and indeed C - are like conventional petrol engines
<gordonjcp>
they suck, but everything else anyone comes up with sucks worse in some vitally important way
<Faustin>
@ gordonjcp do you know how to access mounted CD's in hauku? ^^"
<gordonjcp>
Faustin: not sure
<gordonjcp>
give me a sec, I'll see if I can figure it out
<Faustin>
i use it in virtualbox and want to try something ^^"
<gordonjcp>
I don't have virtualbox
<gordonjcp>
Faustin: have you got te CD mounted?
<Faustin>
exactly...
<gordonjcp>
right let me just reboot into Haiku real quick
<gordonjcp>
okay
<Faustin>
i have no clue
<gordonjcp>
right, in Haiku now
<Faustin>
i just told virtualbox to mount the guest-additions and yea... dont even know how to go there ^^"
<gordonjcp>
Faustin: if the CD is mounted it should just appear on your desktop
<Faustin>
hmm
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<gordonjcp>
right-click on the desktop and you'll see an option "Mount..."
<gordonjcp>
that'll let you pick your CDROM and mount it
<Faustin>
okay, then this is something that does not quite work with virtualbox. no matter what iso i want to mount, nothing new shows up on desktop...
<gordonjcp>
okay
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<gordonjcp>
but are you actually mounting it?
<gordonjcp>
like, did you right-click on the desktop in Haiku and go to "Mount..." and then mount the disk?
<Faustin>
the disk does not show up in that menu
<Faustin>
only the hard disk (which is grayed out) and "Mount All" and that options-thing...
<Faustin>
ok, my VM just hanged itself...
<Faustin>
i use the 64-bit version... i dont know, maybe that does some differences, maybe not ^^"
<gordonjcp>
okay, so maybe it's a virtualbox problem
<gordonjcp>
maybe just use qemu
<Faustin>
never actually used haiku on real systems...
<Faustin>
lol
<Faustin>
after restarting the VM in that "mounting menu" now the CD shows up... i dont get it xD
<Faustin>
on what host system do u virtualize? linux or windows or mac?
<gordonjcp>
Linux
<gordonjcp>
I don't know how to use Windows, it's too complicated
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<Faustin>
lol
<Faustin>
usually people would say, that linux is too complicated xD
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<KitsunePrefecture>
Ahoy !
<Yoke>
I have a feeling the dell I've been using Haiku on has been suffering in it's own waste heat for the past 10 years, I just replaced the thermal paste and now it's dead silent....
<KitsunePrefecture>
Seems web services are down on dev.haiku-os.org
<KitsunePrefecture>
host pingable
<KitsunePrefecture>
is there sometimes offline backup there ?
<gordonjcp>
Yoke: I need to do that with my PS4 soon
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<Faustin>
i really have to get a cheap laptop or something for running haiku on... virtualbox is somewhat laggy...
<Faustin>
any recommendations?
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<Begasus[m]>
closing down here
<Begasus[m]>
cu peeps!
<Faustin>
cya
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<Habbie>
Faustin, 10 year old thin clients are fun. I got some HP t520 and t620 for 30-40 EUR each, although those are a bad example because haiku kernel panics on them in SMP, but there's non-AMD ones out there too i bet
<Faustin>
Habbie: but any known (quite modern) laptops that work with haiku? ^^"
<Habbie>
that i don't know
<Faustin>
hmmm
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<augiedoggie>
why not switch to a different VM software?
<augiedoggie>
vmware isn't too far from native performance on my pc
<augiedoggie>
qemu is probably second fastest
<Faustin>
doesnt vmware cost money?
<augiedoggie>
it's totally free now, the player was free for a few years
<Faustin>
also for windows?
<augiedoggie>
yeah
<Faustin>
ok, i'll give it a try
<augiedoggie>
if you set up a Haiku VM in VMware then you should avoid adding a SATA adapter for the disk
<augiedoggie>
it slows down the boot by a minute or two
<augiedoggie>
use ide or nvme
<Anarchos>
augiedoggie is there a reason ?
<augiedoggie>
a reason why it slows the boot?
<augiedoggie>
the vmware sata adapter presents something like 127 ports and it takes Haiku a while to scan and wait for a response on each one
<Anarchos>
sounds a good reason, and not haiku fault :)
<dovsienko>
I wonder how other OSes handle such an adapter
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<dovsienko>
do they slow down too or use some register somewhere that tells which ports to skip?
<augiedoggie>
i think Haiku has a few extra delays in the code to work around quirky hardware that could be removed
<augiedoggie>
that's my uneducated guess
<dovsienko>
or maybe they scan all ports in parallel, so it always takes the same amount of time no matter how many are connected
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<Faustin>
i have no network connection... i tryed bridged networt like in virtualbox but it seems not to work...
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<augiedoggie>
you might have to change the network adapter
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<augiedoggie>
i can't remember what it defaults to, the .vmx file for mine currently has ethernet0.virtualDev = "e1000e"
<augiedoggie>
i think you'll have to edit the .vmx file manually to set it
<Faustin>
i chose the one who is my ethernet-thingy the same one i also have in virtualbox
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<Faustin>
i tryed even manual configuration with the network-adapter, and a static ip, as well as the gateway and subnetmask etc...
<Faustin>
just cant get my vmware vm to connect to network... no google, no updates...
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<dovsienko>
Faustin: so what is the virtual hardware the VM has, what seems to work and what does not?
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<Faustin>
it seems that now the NAT over the VMnet8 is the only option thats working... eieiei
<Faustin>
i hope that there will be a haiku-image for raspi some day ^^
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<Faustin>
would be my new secondary daily driver ^^
<dovsienko>
yes, Haiku on RPi would be nice
<dovsienko>
although judging by the amount of progress independent Linuxes, FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD made (or not yet) accommodating model 4B and subsequently 5, it is no trivial job
<Faustin>
i dont know how ez it is to compile an OS for ARM64 ^^
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<Hanicef[m]>
<dovsienko> "although judging by the amount..." <- i think the biggest hurdle is that there's virtually no documentation for it whatsoever, and the bootloader is not only non-standard but also proprietary
<Hanicef[m]>
but it was long ago i looked at the raspi, things might've changed since then
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<dovsienko>
well, the thing is RPi has more than one bootloader
<waddlesplash>
that's all different now
<waddlesplash>
you can boot RPi4 with EFI
<waddlesplash>
and the Haiku loader does work with it iirc
<Hanicef[m]>
ah, nice
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<dovsienko>
as far as I manager to gather the high-level arrangement, first there's the VideoCore (VC) ROM bootloader, then (on 4B and later) there's the EEPROM bootloader, then there's the whatever the SD card or USB mass storage has on the filesystem
<Anarchos>
waddlesplash i pushed a PR improvement for the boot menu in case of net boot :)
<waddlesplash>
I saw, didn't look at it
<dovsienko>
which is what is called "firmware" in Raspberry parlance (start4.elf etc)
<Anarchos>
waddlesplash you're fast, i just done it !
<waddlesplash>
well, it came as an email notification
<dovsienko>
I am not sure at which point the DeviceTree files kick in, but it happens. then there's either the OS kernel or EDK firmware or U-boot
<Anarchos>
waddlesplash now, i will take into account the suggestoins you did for bios drive ids
<dovsienko>
in the latter case, if the OS is not Linux, e.g. on OpenBSD, U-boot loads the OpenBSD bootloader, which then loads the OS kernel and runs it. the entire process is supposed to preserve the Device Tree data somehow
<dovsienko>
so there's a whole lot of extra moves to make besides just having an OS kernel that is ready to run on AArch64
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<dovsienko>
that said, RPi5 is fast (I have some experience using models 2, 3, 4 and 5), so if Haiku manages to bootstrap on RPi5 or RPi4B, it will solve quite a few "what hardware can I use to run Haiku on hardware?" questions
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<Halian|>
Haiku on more architectures would be cool
<Faustin>
in deed :D
<Faustin>
but all software for haiku would have to be recompiled to aarch64 too, so you would need to recompile all the package sources and make a new raspi-only branch in the haiku-depot where all the software is recompiled for its architecture... whole lotta work xD
<dovsienko>
that's how it is done in other OSes
<Halian|>
Faustin: and/or make a Rosetta-like translation layer in the meantime
<Halian|>
(I propose calling it Basho :þ)
<Faustin>
i have to admit, i am a very very weak programmer, more in beginner level xD
<Faustin>
i could never do this ^^ but i would think C might be a usefule lang for this ^^
<x512[m]>
UserlandVM can run RISC-V binaries on x86_64 system.
<Halian|>
Oh nice
<Faustin>
but for raspi you need to turn that around
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<Halian|>
Faustin: the problem is that C is a memory-unsafe spaghetti mess :þ
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<Faustin>
hmm i like C :d
<Halian|>
I think I'm just jaded because I took Intro to C in college and it was a tire fire
<Faustin>
maybe it depends on how good your code is structured...
<x512[m]>
C language, footgun included.
<Halian|>
The professor had a thick accent, insisted on delivering everything by video lecture with no subtitles or transcripts, and disappeared halfway through :c
<Halian|>
x512[m]++
<Faustin>
ok, then FreeBASIC xD
<Faustin>
okay gotta go , maybe we'll see us again ^^
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<Anarchos>
Halian| i began with Logo in primary school, basic in school, Pascal in high school, and OCaml first year of uni.