<dru_satori>
FWIW, I am currently using a solid little machine for my Haiku dev that's ( relatively ) budget friendly
<nephele_xmpp>
hm?
<dru_satori>
pulling the link now
<dru_satori>
although, for US buyers, it's gonna get a little complex due to aour incoming Chief Cheetoh Crime Lord "El PResidente" and his idiotic tarriff policies
<dru_satori>
have video running native mode now ( working on those patches now )
<dru_satori>
wireless and ethernet work
<dru_satori>
audio works, but is a smidge choppy.
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<phschafft>
seems I killed erysdren and nephele_xmpp ;)
<erysdren>
nah just distracted
<erysdren>
going to get groceries soon
<phschafft>
have fun!
<nephele_xmpp>
I was waiting for you to finsih your thoughts on plan0
* phschafft
thinks nephele_xmpp is off-by-one.
<phschafft>
was more an OS independent tought on how things should be.
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<phschafft>
the main question was basically if an audio device is a property of the system, the session, or the terminal.
<Anarchos>
phschafft i would say the system ?
<Anarchos>
phschafft and if you ask me, the network drivers should be drivers as other peripherals, and not privileged to be in kernel :)
<phschafft>
why you think it's a property of the system?
<nephele_xmpp>
phschafft, not sure. I’m not really sure what you mean by property of the system or session as such
<nephele_xmpp>
I mean, i don’t see much distinction between an audio recored that is “local” via pci, or via usb, or via ethernet. In the end all that matters to an application is that you get an audio stream
<nephele_xmpp>
and even then the device may even be virtual and not exist at all, like the demo audio producer in haiku
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<phschafft>
...yes.
<phschafft>
property in the sense of 'who do you ask if you need it'.
<phschafft>
e.g. food is the property of the kitchen, while drinks are the property of the bar.
<nephele_xmpp>
I would say ask “the user” but I think you are talking about something else
<phschafft>
ah, so the more classic way: just show the notes to the user so he can hum along!
<phschafft>
;)
<phschafft>
I think it's time to get some sleep. looking forward to some opinions/discussion tomorrow.
<AlienSoldier>
about that psion post "It also doesn't fully power off at shutdown." same as my acer aspire one.
<AlienSoldier>
look like all those things have a similar reference platform, pentium M, centrino etc...
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<nekobot>
• Begasus (8758a406): spdlog, bump version (#11648)
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<zdykstra>
mornin' Begasus[m]
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<HaikuUser>
hello
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<erysdren>
hi
<phschafft>
mau.
<Begasus>
whoof
<phschafft>
all good everyone?
<Begasus>
is there something related to tzdata changed in the hrev at the buildmasters and the latest hrev on beta5?
<erysdren>
meow
<Begasus>
R fails to build there phschafft ... not sure why it would fail there (building on 2 diff laptops doesn't error out)
<phschafft>
Begasus: I always wanted to make that scale on how much devs hate words from most loved 'always' to most hated 'basically never' over the middle ground of 'sometimes' ;)
<phschafft>
I'm sorry to hear that it fails :(
<Begasus>
heh
<Begasus>
it's not related to ICU, forces ICU74 in the recipe
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<phschafft>
hm.
<Begasus>
(and don't have ICU75 on the other laptop) :)
<augiedoggie>
Begasus[m]: have you tried added timezone_data to the requires or prerequires?
<augiedoggie>
s/added/adding/
<augiedoggie>
i don't see it loaded in the build log
<Begasus>
augiedoggie, not tried, but didn't error on it either here?
<Begasus>
don't have it installed here also
<augiedoggie>
dunno, just a guess
* augiedoggie
is off to work
<Begasus>
np, thanks
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<Begasus[m]>
closing down here, cu peeps
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<waddlesplash>
I’m going to try streaming some Haiku development on Twitch in about 45 minutes or so, looking at userspace ELF symbol resolution in the kernel debugger stack trace generator. https://www.twitch.tv/waddlesplash
<zdykstra>
do you have to have an account to watch the stream?
<phschafft>
similar question: any mplayer-able URL? ;)
<nipos>
(Just came across the forum thread and wanted to share the safe URL anyway lol)
<waddlesplash>
yeah I know Twitch is "big tech" but there aren't really any good alternatives
<waddlesplash>
the other ones are all corporate too. video streaming is expensive
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<nipos>
Yeah,I just had a look at alternativeto.net and most stuff really didn't look much better
<nipos>
SafeTwitch at least lets you watch it through a community-run proxy and strips out all the crap you don't need (ads,trackers,third-party bullshit) and the page is a lot more lightweight.I didn't try,but it might even work on Haiku
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<nipos>
There are some open-source selfhosted solutions however.If you're interested,I could try hosting such a thing on one of my dedicated servers at the weekend or so.
<waddlesplash>
they probably use a lot of bandwidth, and the latency might not be so great going US -> EU directly like that, idk
<waddlesplash>
there's also the advantage on Twitch that we may get random people who aren't just Haiku regulars
<waddlesplash>
the self-hosted Jitsi works for Haiku regulars who don't mind joining a "meeting room", but I'd like to appeal to more than just that here
<nipos>
Having hundreds of people watch it might kill my server,of course,but I'd rather expect a handful of interested users or so.Having 1GB/s unmetered traffic opens some room to try.
<nipos>
Well,at least SafeTwitch seems to work reasonably well,so I can watch your stream without issues.Google has done really everything they can to kill Invidious and make sure it doesn't work more than 1/10 of the times you try.So yeah,Youtube would have been a lot worse.
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<phschafft>
litte sidenote: we (LF) provided the jitsi for when nephele_xmpp was doing it in the past. happy to provide in case anyone else wants to do similar.
<phschafft>
so there is no need to set something up, specifically just yet.
<phschafft>
but as waddlesplash explained, there is a difference between unidirectional streaming and more meeting style.
<nipos>
I was thinking of open-source Twitch alternatives like Owncast, because yes, I know there's a difference
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<dalme>
waddlesplash: Twich won't get you any extra viewers I think. It doesn't really promote content. I think YouTube is a lot better for that.
<nipos>
Hell no, that's the worst of all
<nipos>
Currently trying some random stream on SafeTwitch, it's working surprisingly well on Haiku in GNOME Web. And that's on a old 3-core AMD Athlon machine
<waddlesplash>
dalme: it's not about viewers from Twitch itself but people who feel comfortable clicking a link to a random platform, I think
<waddlesplash>
anyway, stream started, I'll begin in a bit
<dalme>
Then Twich will do it
<waddlesplash>
fwiw I'm not going to be looking at IRC much during the stream. I will have the Twitch chat window open tho
<|cos|>
heh. twitch appears to work for like 5 seconds at a time, then you'll need to reload the page.
<nipos>
At least the image is perfectly fine here.I can't hear anything.Not sure if that's because he's not yet talking or something's broken here.With another random stream it worked
<|cos|>
twitch.tv works. drgns.space was the one that is limited to a couple of seconds.
<nipos>
Had drgns.space work fine with another stream,with waddlesplashs it didn't load.So I chose another instance instead.There are many
<nipos>
Not going to give any big tech crap visits,ever
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<nipos>
Oh,it seems viewing on Haiku isn't working as fine as I thought :(
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<nipos>
Worked with a 720p stream that I tested before,but waddlesplash only has 1080p and that's too much.On my FreeBSD laptop it's now working
<|cos|>
the twitch chat isn't working without giving twitch a phonenumber and stuff :(
<nipos>
Would be better to read the IRC instead.
<|cos|>
the µphone gain is way too low. i'm on maximum volume here, and sound is never a problem on this machine. still it's practically inaudible. :(
<nipos>
Same here,I'm on maximum volume and can barely understand anything
<waddlesplash>
nipos: stream restarted, and turned volume up. better?
<nipos>
Yes, thanks
<nipos>
I understand you a lot better now
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<Skipp_OSX_>
.... and dead
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<Skipp_OSX>
RIP stream
<waddlesplash>
back again
<Skipp_OSX>
and we're back
<nipos>
I always think it's SafeTwitch lagging, only to see it's really offline after I reload lol
<waddlesplash>
yeah, seems my Internet is flakier than I expected unfortunately
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<nipos>
No problem, it's still very interesting now that I can hear you :D
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<AlienSoldier>
ho my, i look at haiku being coded in real time, something i proposed to Axeld at the begining to Haiku, so i get it 20 years later :)
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<AlienSoldier>
burd sound may be as good as having cat in video to lure viewer :)
<AlienSoldier>
*bird
<AlienSoldier>
That would merit a post to hackernews to draw interest
<waddlesplash>
phschafft: yes, it is
<nipos>
No questions here, it was really interesting to watch 👍
<phschafft>
:)
<AlienSoldier>
waddlesplash there was a beos native random duck soundscape back in R5 days :)
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<AlienSoldier>
it was like a marsh or something
<AlienSoldier>
i could watch that show a lot :) Goes a bit fast for me to follow but that is good :)
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<AlienSoldier>
waddlesplash found it it is called Entenkontrolle i have it in a pkg file but can't seem to run that, not even see the files inside the "zip" format
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<AlienSoldier>
Ente mean duck in german, that is what i used to find it
<AlienSoldier>
as i remembered vaguely a german sounding
<waddlesplash>
seems it's not on PulkoMandy's archive
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<geniodiabolico>
I was able to get my full build completed and boot into it, so I'm at square 0 now I guess.
<geniodiabolico>
Some of these snprintf warnings are for sure pointing out problems. The mime ones in AssociatedTypes.cpp and SnifferRules.cpp take two buffers of size N, allocate a third of size N then write N bytes of format "%s/%s" to that third buffer. It might not happen much in practice but there is the potential of truncating this to something not meaningful.
<Skipp_OSX>
you can use BString with << to format strings which could be easier than dealing with sprintf() format specifiers.
<phschafft>
what is the length of N?
<geniodiabolico>
B_PATH_NAME_LENGTH
<phschafft>
I see.
<geniodiabolico>
Some are more and less meaningful but this for sure is not what was intended
<geniodiabolico>
Would it be better to just change the indices or switch to BString? Would that be the way fresh code would be written today?
<geniodiabolico>
I'm looking for small, discrete tasks to get started with so kind of picking from warning that seem to indicate real issues.
<phschafft>
my guess is that this is one of those things Haiku does mix standards in a creative way. so there might not be a perfect solution.
<phschafft>
snprintf() allows checking for errors, including truncating.
<geniodiabolico>
If changing the indices is acceptable I will start there
<phschafft>
I think doing such a check (or anything similar BString based) would likely be the best one can do.
<geniodiabolico>
At first I thought I was looking at an overflow. It isn't, but if those buffers are long it will get cut off and the subtype will never be found.
<phschafft>
if B_PATH_NAME_LENGTH is for the full path (not a single component) than if it's longer than that it will fail anyway.
<geniodiabolico>
I didn't see anything about unit tests in the docs. Is there any local testing I can run on changes like these beyond building and trying to exercise that code?
<phschafft>
without having seen the code, my best guess is that B_PATH_NAME_LENGTH is the absolut maximum possible length to begin with.
<phschafft>
is the return value of that snprintf() check in any way?
<geniodiabolico>
nope
<phschafft>
nephele_xmpp: ping (token=sound)?
<phschafft>
geniodiabolico: can you check for it to be NOT (ret < 3 || ret >= B_PATH_NAME_LENGTH) and see if the warning goes away?
<phschafft>
snprintf() likely returns int (not ssize_t) for historical reasons.
<geniodiabolico>
sure
<nephele_xmpp>
what token?
<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] 9792c516948d - kernel/elf: Use extended_image_info instead of reading runtime_loader structures.
<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] 7d232f0cf8c3 - kernel/image: Switch to using DoublyLinkedList<> for struct image.
<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] 7331a67227f3 - kernel/util: Require passing a list_link to list_remove_link.
<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] 853ddd218ed8 - Debug Kit: Don't find the runtime_loader debug area if no debug context.
<phschafft>
nephele_xmpp: ref my question from yesterday.
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<nephele_xmpp>
I don’t think i understood the question still
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<phschafft>
yes, my question was a bit thrown in and then I needed to leave.
<phschafft>
basically it's a how-should-it-be thing and user related, so a topic for you.
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<phschafft>
the question is, if I need to play audio (or record) I need an audio device. who do I go to to get one. the system, the session, or the terminal.
<nephele_xmpp>
I expect the system to have a list. But I’m not really sure what you mean by session or terminal in that context. What’s the difference between the two? If a terminal is something that is connected to a session the audio devices would be aswell
<nephele_xmpp>
But I don’t see how that matters to users, for permissions or something you have to have *something* that enforces a policy on when to allow or disallow it, but the policy is the important thing and not really which component enforces it
<phschafft>
the terminal is the representation of the physical stuff you use to access the machine. which might be local or remote.
<phschafft>
the session is what you start by logging in.
<phschafft>
so you use a terminal to start a session, but the session might he handed over to another terminal for example.
<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] e7735d59c3b6 - Deskbar: A few minor style fixes to StatusView (tray)
<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] 297aa21e4623 - Deskbar: Always AdoptParentColors() on StatusView
<nephele_xmpp>
Then it becomes a question of what does the app actually want, *a* recording device? or a specific one?
<Skipp_OSX>
I mean the answer has to be the system, neither terminal nor session are an audio device.
<nephele_xmpp>
For example this terminal has speakers embedded, if the app want’s a audio output it should move if moved to another terminal with speakers attached. But if i am in a recording session right now it should keep in mind which audio device is beeing used
<phschafft>
this is motly a question of the defaults. the go-to thing. naturally you may have means to override things.
<Skipp_OSX>
a speaker is not an audio device in that it does not produce nor record sound
<Skipp_OSX>
the audio device is the thing that the speaker and/or microphone connect into
<phschafft>
nephele_xmpp: if you do such a 'critical' application you likely want to pin by using some specific config. for example for mine I also want my specific settings, e.g. on phantom power. clearly that should always be an option.
<nephele_xmpp>
What do you mean by produces sounds? that is all that speakers do
<phschafft>
Skipp_OSX: my terminal has sound.
<Skipp_OSX>
then it's not a terminal
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<phschafft>
the very same grey boy that has keyboard, mouse, and screen build in also has a cam, a mic, and speakers build in.
<phschafft>
it is one box.
<nephele_xmpp>
I think you are both using different definitions for the word terminal
<Skipp_OSX>
yeah but that's not sound
<Skipp_OSX>
I'm using the definition that he provided.
<nephele_xmpp>
I think phschafft means the group of all physical Inputs/outputs that interact with the user infront of a computer
<phschafft>
the terminal is the thing that connects the user to the machine.
<Skipp_OSX>
what is the machine?
<phschafft>
I don't mean like a specific implementation or driver or character device or anything like that.
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<phschafft>
I would say, as we're in a computer channel, it's a computer. but, naturally could also be something else.
<phschafft>
I mean a lift also has a terminal.
<Skipp_OSX>
what's the difference between the computer and the system?
<phschafft>
it has buttons and a display and also makes sound (at times).
<phschafft>
Skipp_OSX: system here meaning the OS on the specific node.
<phschafft>
roughly.
<Skipp_OSX>
what is a node?
<nephele_xmpp>
skipp_osx: I think the idea here is that your system can have severall terminals attached, i.e like a remote app_server for example
<Skipp_OSX>
I'm trying to get you to the answer without saying it again.
* scanty
runs away.
<phschafft>
Skipp_OSX: the hardware, basically.
<phschafft>
(which might be virtual).
<Skipp_OSX>
including the audio generation hardware?
<phschafft>
the node is the thing the terminal is connected to (or maybe build in)
<phschafft>
it might include that.
<Skipp_OSX>
<phschafft> the question is, if I need to play audio (or record) I need an audio device. who do I go to to get one. the system, the session, or the terminal.
<Skipp_OSX>
so the answer should now be clear.
<phschafft>
is it?
<Skipp_OSX>
I hope so
<phschafft>
so, what is your answer then?
* phschafft
thinks Skipp_OSX is adding option 4 into the pool of answers he got from the people he has asked so far.
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<phschafft>
(also nobody get me wrong. I enjoy those questions to be discussed, even if a bit heated. it's not against anyone's opinion. it's just to figure out what possibilies are there if we don't keep to 'because we always did it that way')
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<Anarchos>
Skipp_OSX one way to think of this question, is : 'what would happen if i use RemoteDesktop' ? ---> i always thought funny that my youtube video plays in a server rack to microsoft data center :)
<phschafft>
Anarchos: that is surely one of the good questions that come with it. :)
<Anarchos>
phschafft and is not a virtual question , cause haiku has «haiku/src/apps/remotedesktop»
* phschafft
nods.
<phschafft>
I mean there are many ways of having a remote terminal. some systems have something native. but there are also a lot of remote desktop protocols. plus stuff like SSH.
<phschafft>
(and SSH *can* forward a lot of stuff, it's not just text and that's it)
<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] 7e29de92660e - ramfs: Add support for "special" nodes.
<phschafft>
Anarchos: so you would place it at the terminal?
<phschafft>
hm, a few more related toughts:
<phschafft>
on my linux my tty has an ioctl() to control a sound generator that outputs via my headphones. there is also ^G, which has been there for a long, long time.
<phschafft>
another item with a similar question is about status indicators. e.g. the blinkenlights. it shows the CPU status. which I would think is something more about the node. however people have CPU meters on their desktop bars. so they (artifically) make it part of their terminal.
<phschafft>
and if I do that with a remote connection I might also see remote meters.
<phschafft>
the difference however is that in the audio case the related hardware is user-side, and in the CPU case it is node-side. so basically the mirror case.
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