ChanServ changed the topic of #haiku to: Open-source operating system that specifically targets personal computing. | https://haiku-os.org | Nightlies: https://download.haiku-os.org | Bugtracker: https://dev.haiku-os.org | SCM: https://git.haiku-os.org/ | Logs: https://oftc.irclog.whitequark.org/haiku | Matrix: #haiku:matrix.org | XMPP: #haiku%irc.oftc.net@irc.jabberfr.org
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<Begasus> morning peeps
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<Anarchos> hello
<Begasus> Hi Anarchos
<Anarchos> Begasus: i need advise from mmu_man but he is never availaable :(
<Begasus> email?
<Begasus> or poke him at fideverse :)
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<Anarchos> Begasus: what is fideverse ?
<Begasus> mastodon etc social media thing (kinda like twitter/x)
<Habbie> fediverse
<Begasus> oops my bad Habbie
<Begasus> mostly I just say Tokodon :P
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<Anarchos> Begasus: i had an answer of pulko, he will look when he will have time,. That's cool :)
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<Begasus> nice Anarchos :)
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<Anarchos> Begasus: now i will tackle the use of those bios drive ids in BootManager
<Anarchos> Begasus: and i will finally be able to launch this Win7 from my second hdd in haiku boot menu :)
<Begasus> even nicer! :D
<Anarchos> Begasus: my plans for next work on haiku : finish my accelerometer driver (maybe with a preference panel), then add a monitoring to BePDF, to reload automatically modified PDF files (thus you can recompile them with pdflatex and see instant change in BePDF :) )
<Habbie> ohh nice
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<Begasus> now we need at least latest texlive on Haiku (2024 failed iirc on 64bit)
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<BrunoSpr> hello
<BrunoSpr> where to reset the replicants setting again?
<BrunoSpr> some shows some not
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<BrunoSpr> hello all
<BrunoSpr> Begasus, some time to look into this app? https://sourceforge.net/projects/qtpfsgui/
<BrunoSpr> Might be worth having: For HDR pictures
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<BrunoSpr> hello all, where to reset the replicants setting again? ,some shows some not...
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<Anarchos> Habbie: sorrry , i missed some lines. What do you find nice ?
<Habbie> automatic pdf reload!
<Begasus> could have a look later BrunoSpr
<Begasus> remind me if I forget :)
<Begasus> on the replicants, handle not showing or replicants not showing?
<Anarchos> Habbie: beos and haiku has a node monitoring system, so it should be fairly easy to detect a change in a file, and reloads it.
<Begasus> still finetuning the Qt6 6.8.1 recipes
<Habbie> Anarchos, nice
<Begasus[m]> seems kinda out-dated
<BrunoSpr> We have nothing easy like this one to process hdr images
<Habbie> ack
<BrunoSpr> I could check gimp to see if it is possible to process hdr images as good as in luminance hdr
<Begasus> tried Digikam? I think it can do it also
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<BrunoSpr> We have rawtherapee but luminance hdr is not there now
<BrunoSpr> Digikam has a raw decoder only and cannot encode to hdr!
<Begasus> checking a build
<BrunoSpr> DigiKam there is ver.8.5.o out now... we have 6.2.0
<BrunoSpr> DigiKam needs photovio which can process "fake hdr" images
<BrunoSpr> we have photovio
<BrunoSpr> but it is only fake hdr!
<Begasus> I knew I saw something passing by for it :)
<BrunoSpr> sorry, we have DigiKam 8.2.0 in HaikuDepot
<Begasus> BrunoSpr, it builds/launches :) https://0x0.st/8ozV.png
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<Begasus> run cmake -Bbuild -S. -DCMAKE_INSTALL_PREFIX=/boot/home/destdir -DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=Release -Wno-dev -L
<Begasus> check to see if all libraries/devel packages are installed*
<Begasus> run "make -Cbuild -j*" and "make -Cbuild install"
<Begasus> :)
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<BrunoSpr> Begasus. wow, nice some more toy for playing around with HAIKU
<BrunoSpr> And the first to process HDR-Images
<Begasus> no idea how functional it really is, can only check a build :)
<BrunoSpr> That sounds good, I will try to compile it tomorrow, have to go to work a bit soon
<Begasus> +1
<BrunoSpr> nice
<Begasus> late shift?
<BrunoSpr> yes, night shift
<Begasus> ok, enjoy later then :)
<BrunoSpr> 3 hours to go
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<BrunoSpr> yes sure thanks for looking into it, may help some people to play with HAIKU I hope
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<Begasus> if it works let me know, could guide you to create a recipe for it :D
<draKon> hey has anyone else experienced, when multiple programs are open, that the screen just changes focus to a different one, (like the mouse is clicked but ye didnt click it?)
<draKon> its been getting worst the past several days
<Begasus> ps, for testing i always use /boot/home/destdir for install prefix
<draKon> even if one or two programs open it happens
<Begasus> seen it for some time here draKon, pretty annoying sometimes
<draKon> it was fine up until a week ago
<draKon> i felt it may've been my other mouse, it died yesterday
<draKon> but new mouse its still doing it
<draKon> and my touchpad mouse on laptop aswell as external usb one
<Begasus> ow, should keep an eye on that then, hard to reproduce
<draKon> worst is when im in multi text box arrangement typing\
<Begasus> heh
<Begasus> know the feeling ;)
<draKon> i believed it was my mouse, having glitches
<draKon> but its increasingly frustrating
<draKon> should i post a topic in forum? or is it well established bug?
<draKon> ive installed lots of software, past month, probably someting i installed
<draKon> but im using same software as normal,
<draKon> not currently using all the new software
<Begasus> atm bleeding edge(*) KDE KF6 6.10.0 and Qt6 6.8.1, not in the depot :)
<draKon> my pick of choices to eliminate options, is batch of various updates past fortnight,
<draKon> whatever updates came from anysoftware i have, AFTER the new iceweasel was releasaed, its gotten bad,
<draKon> but who knows which updates
<Begasus> reboot
<draKon> timing wise
<draKon> nah
<draKon> its not constant
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<Begasus[m]> I meant reboot here* :)
<Begasus[m]> biab
<zdykstra> lol
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<BrunoSpr> I just tried to compile, but not that easy, have to try tomorrow with more time. There is a lot to learn for me now!
<draKon> wb begasus
<gordonjcp> evening
<draKon> begasus, i uninstalled Iceweasel just then, and immediately the software i was using, was going in and out of focus like i was talking about
<draKon> it stopped immediately after i uninstalled iceweasel, im going to reinstall it now, and see it if starts again
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<draKon> hmm
<draKon> i its gotten worst when playing around with uninstalling, then reinstalling iceweasel
<draKon> i uninstalled it and if i have 2 windows or more open when using mouse, it acts like im making clicks when i'm not
<draKon> like dragging window, then drops it, like i got clumsy hands
<draKon> hahah
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<draKon> or clumsy fingers
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<Begasus> draKon, don't have IceWeasel installed here
<BrunoSpr> see you tomorrow...
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<Begasus> Hi jmairboeck!
<jmairboeck> hi Begasus
<Begasus> was about to report you missing :)
<jmairboeck> I was at work today :) (not retired yet)
<Begasus> some day you will get there :)
<jmairboeck> in 30 years or so :)
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<Begasus> by the time R2 is out then :D
<draKon> thanks for input begasus before
<draKon> kinda going to play around or wait for updates
<Begasus> which input? :)
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<draKon> just typing back and feedback
<draKon> just b4
<draKon> about my app focus problem
<draKon> havent fixed it yet :S
<Begasus> np :) nothing fixed/broken yet ;)
<draKon> not iceweasel on its own for now
<draKon> it happens mostly when im moving my mouse
<Begasus> not touching much related to GTK for while, keyboard issues are not pleasant to deal with
<Begasus> ah! don't move mouse? :P
<draKon> or even with irc client just b4, when i bring it to front, then it drops behind my browser
<draKon> seems to get worst then stops being so insistent, randomly
<Begasus> you know we have workspaces right?
<draKon> yep
<Begasus> atm here in VM 8, had 12 on bare metal :)
<Begasus> 6 is a minimum for me
<draKon> i want to get hdmi working so i can hookup external multi monitors on laptop
<draKon> cant even get one working through hdmi
<Begasus> would be nice too, got one not used atm too
<draKon> kinda bumming me actually, i cant focus long enough on screen on laptop. desktop monitor much nicer
<draKon> i got like 4 monitors here to use
<draKon> 2 positioned ready for action
<Begasus> heh
<draKon> it actually feels calmer in the room when i used the hdmi display on windows weeks back, b4 i canned it
<draKon> my lcd laptop display isn't very palatable
<Begasus> palatable?
<draKon> i use nintendo switch to watch/play youtube on one while on laptop :)
<draKon> umm just looks better on bigger screen
<draKon> palatable like good enough to taste/see
<draKon> i need another hobby instead of using internets
<draKon> i hate it
<draKon> i hate how so much crap is on the web
<draKon> no control or proper regulatio
<draKon> n
<draKon> google and facebook, just populate it with lazy programmes
<draKon> to many copies by people stealing english language thinking its "get rich quick" insentive is useful
<draKon> just want someone/some people to stop all the crazy stuff going on
<draKon> its why i like haiku better, everything in one place on depot
<draKon> and straight to one haiku forum with ACTUAL users of code and apps
<draKon> its only when i want to use content like video, / audio or creative writing, outside of haiku, then it gets buzzy inside my head LOL
<draKon> well if i have to leave haikus platform
<draKon> I really appreciate when things are in their proper place and working as expected in their places
<draKon> or should i say "anticipated" not expected
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<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] waddlesplash pushed 6 commits to master [hrev58524] - https://git.haiku-os.org/haiku/log/?qt=range&q=e68498c7c9e3+%5E4c73b06622da
<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] ad85518214de - Debug Kit: Handle more than two TEXT/DATA segments.
<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] 7105c3f66d7a - Debugger Kit: Rename "TextDelta" to "LoadDelta".
<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] 2c9560581b97 - Debug Kit: Restore support for symbol lookup by remote memory access.
<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] d20817c284da - Debug Kit: Build the areas list on-demand.
<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] c3ff6461e5ec - Debug Kit: Don't rebuild image_info for LoadedImage.
<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] e68498c7c9e3 - Debug Kit: Fix LoadedImage SymbolLookup for multiple TEXT segments.
<Begasus> still a lot of things not working as they should in Haiku, it's still a wip, specially for external packages
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<Begasus> outside of Haiku? use what you want/need, no one is forcing anything on you :P
<Skipp_OSX> heyo
<Begasus> hiho Skipp_OSX
<Skipp_OSX> Debug Kit nice
<Skipp_OSX> color drops have got me down, still working on clearing all the infinite loops
<waddlesplash> yeah, that fixes broken stack traces in a bunch of cases
<waddlesplash> Iceweasel and QtWebEngine chief among them I think
<Skipp_OSX> nice nice
<Begasus> +1
<Skipp_OSX> Iceweasel spurring more updates I see
<waddlesplash> yeah
<waddlesplash> most of my work the last month has been Iceweasel-related though a lot of it indirectly
<Skipp_OSX> what do you think about the idea of mass moving all demos out of apps into demos folder, Desktop applets out of apps into applets folder?
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<waddlesplash> which are those?
<Skipp_OSX> the apps in the Demos Deskbar menu item: Chart, Click, Cortex, FontDemo, GLTeapot, Haiku3d, Mandelbrot, OverlayImage, Pairs, PatchBay, Playground, Pulse and Sudoku
<Skipp_OSX> Clock not Click
<waddlesplash> you said "demos out of apps into demos folder"
<waddlesplash> so which are the ones that would get moved *into* demos?
<Skipp_OSX> right, in the source tree those are all located in the apps folder, src/apps/ I'd like to move them into src/demos/
<Skipp_OSX> Chart, Clock, Cortex, FontDemo, GLTeapot, Haiku3d, Mandelbrot, OverlayImage, Pairs, PatchBay, Playground, Pulse and Sudoku
<waddlesplash> oh
<waddlesplash> no, I don't see any good reason for that
<waddlesplash> what would be the point?
<Skipp_OSX> just organizational, Preferences are in preferences so it makes sense to do the rest to me.
<Skipp_OSX> I'd like to add a Demo, would be a good time to create the folder if desired, but if not, I can add to apps
<waddlesplash> yeah, just put in apps
<waddlesplash> but what's the demo?
<waddlesplash> idk if this is really a useful "demo"
<dru_satori> anybody have a good graphical diff tool they like for haiku prefarably native ui, not QT
<Skipp_OSX> it's useful to demo the color picker feature. It's not required but that's why it's a demo
<waddlesplash> if we are getting more/better color pickers in-tree, shouldn't we just make them used in Appearance or the like?
<waddlesplash> so we don't need a separate demo
<waddlesplash> Skipp_OSX: oh, or, maybe this belongs inside Playground?
* dru_satori grumbles that sometimes it takes longer to document, and ensure that code matches style and patterns of a platform than actually writing the code
<Skipp_OSX> def not in Playground
<waddlesplash> why not?
<waddlesplash> couldn't it use a color picker for adding objects?
<Skipp_OSX> Playground could use a color well to replace the color control
<waddlesplash> so why not this?
<Skipp_OSX> Playground is bout drawing object, this is a demo of color picker interactions, they're not related to each other.
<Skipp_OSX> *about
<waddlesplash> hmm
<waddlesplash> well, I don't think we need a new demo just for color pickers
<Skipp_OSX> well we don't *need* it of course, but it's nice to have, I could release without it.
<waddlesplash> a little tool like that can just be a third party item?
<dru_satori> might be interesting to have as a part of more complete UI Control Gallery though
<waddlesplash> or maybe a sample code item
<Skipp_OSX> well sure but so could the rest of the demos
<waddlesplash> eh, some of those demos make sense on their own
<waddlesplash> Cortex is basically an app and not a demo
<Skipp_OSX> yeah Cortex not really a demo agreed there.
<waddlesplash> Mandelbrot is a CPU multi-threading workout (and a neat toy)
<waddlesplash> GLTeapot and Haiku3d is "make sure OpenGL works"
<dru_satori> move thecolor picker into an overall control gallery like this maybe? https://github.com/microsoft/WinUI-Gallery
<Skipp_OSX> yeah PickerDemo in same vein, make sure color pickers work.
<waddlesplash> we don't need demos for every single type of picker tho
<Skipp_OSX> It's trickier than you might think since color changes go in both directions.
<waddlesplash> maybe this makes sense as a test
<waddlesplash> somewhere in src/test, but not built by default
<waddlesplash> we have other UI control experiment apps in there
<Skipp_OSX> yeah that's what it's for, it's a demo
<dru_satori> I'
<Skipp_OSX> well, it would not be in the minimal build but in regular build
<waddlesplash> I don't see a reason to add this to the regular build...
<Skipp_OSX> same reason as the rest of the demos
<waddlesplash> users don't need to test the color pickers, only developers do
<waddlesplash> users should just actually use them in some context
<Skipp_OSX> well it does have one piece of utility to users
<waddlesplash> Skipp_OSX: but again, we wouldn't add a dozen test apps to the demos in the default install
<waddlesplash> I don't see why color pickers are special. Sure, they're a bit more complicated, but not that complicated.
<Skipp_OSX> it's a very small app.
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<waddlesplash> yes, which is why I question having it in "demos"
<waddlesplash> the other entries in there all have purpose
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<Skipp_OSX> well it's a demo, it belongs in demo as much as any other demo app, except Cortex which isn't really a demo at all.
<Skipp_OSX> what is the purpose of Haiku3d?
<waddlesplash> to look cool!
<Skipp_OSX> ha!
<waddlesplash> GLTeapot and Haiku3d have some overlap
<waddlesplash> we reasonably would only need one, but the teapot is there for nostalgia
<Skipp_OSX> maybe we should have another release target for the gray areas here
<Skipp_OSX> like testing...
<waddlesplash> you can build all the test separately
<waddlesplash> there's a meta-target (or should be)
<waddlesplash> pretty sure there's also ways to add items here to your own builds via UserBuildConfig
<waddlesplash> so why not use that?
<Skipp_OSX> oh well, I want the demo to be in the build that's why, to demo the feature.
<waddlesplash> we should "demo the feature" by having it in Appearance
<Skipp_OSX> uh, no... not in Appearance.
<waddlesplash> Appearance needs a color picker, if you're replacing the color pickers, then wouldn't appearance be affected?
<dru_satori> Iboth appearance and backgrounds I would think
<Skipp_OSX> Well, I've moved the ColorListView and ColorPreview into shared since they're used in Appearance and Terminal, but Appearance and Terminal have their own BColorControl and don't have a separate picker.
<waddlesplash> ?
<Skipp_OSX> The only places I'm using color pickers right now are in Tracker settings and in Icon-O-Matic.
<waddlesplash> okay
<waddlesplash> so then they're used that way
<waddlesplash> and a separate demo isn't really needed
<Skipp_OSX> They could be used in Terminal and Appearance and Backgrounds but don't have to be.
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<Skipp_OSX> Again, not needed, but is a demo.
<waddlesplash> the demos all cover things other apps don't, though, is kind of the point
<Skipp_OSX> It is needed as much as any demo is needed.
<waddlesplash> nothing else in the default install demos 3D except two demos
<waddlesplash> etc.
<waddlesplash> we don't need a demo app for something that's naturally integrated into the OS already
<waddlesplash> we don't have a demo app for File pickers for instance
<Skipp_OSX> no we don't need it, but it does have 1 feature that is nice to have which is that it allows you to more easily pick your default color picker.
<waddlesplash> ... why do we need multiple color pickers?
<waddlesplash> we should provide 1 good default picker. If people want more advanced ways of picking colors, they should install a 3rd party app for that.
<Skipp_OSX> well, we provide 2 color pickers, the default one which is the "bad" one and Colors! which is the "good" one but is third party.
<waddlesplash> we should improve the default one then
<waddlesplash> the Icon-O-Matic picker is a much better picker than the default
<waddlesplash> we should work on enhancing that
<Skipp_OSX> right, that's Colors! that's the "good" one.
<waddlesplash> well, the IOM picker is already in-tree
<waddlesplash> and MIT licensed etc.
<waddlesplash> so we should pull it for BColorControl
<Skipp_OSX> right but I'm removing it.
<waddlesplash> ... why?
<Skipp_OSX> I'm removing it from Icon-O-Matic and putting it in a Color Picker instead.
<Skipp_OSX> So that you can have the Icon-O-Matic picker everywhere.
<waddlesplash> well, we don't need multiple color pickers in the default install
<waddlesplash> that I believe pretty firmly
<Skipp_OSX> We do because Colors! is third party.
<waddlesplash> then it can stay third party?
<waddlesplash> and people can install it if they want
<Skipp_OSX> I'd like to pull it in as a package.
<waddlesplash> not in the default install, that doesn't make sense
<Skipp_OSX> why not?
<waddlesplash> people don't need to pick colors very often, and the ones who do, are artists or whatever and will install third party software anyway
<waddlesplash> so we should provide one 'good enough' default, which will work for 90+% of people
<waddlesplash> and the remainder can install a package
<Skipp_OSX> I mean that's basically what I'm doing.
<waddlesplash> the IOM picker should be the one that's default in the OS tho, imo
<Skipp_OSX> You should never worry about the default picker, it's only for the minimal build.
<Skipp_OSX> right so, assuming you're not on the minimal build, that would be the case.
<waddlesplash> ??
<waddlesplash> the BColorControl picker should be the IOM picker is what I'm saying
<waddlesplash> that will be in the minimal build tool
<waddlesplash> too
<waddlesplash> and we shouldn't bother shipping any third party pickers in any default install, it's not necessary if the default picker is "good enough"
<Skipp_OSX> the reason it's not though it because the "bad" one is first party, the "good" one is 3rd party. So you get both, but you shouldn't have to worry about it.
<Skipp_OSX> I want the "good" one out of tree, that's the reason for 2.
<waddlesplash> why?
<waddlesplash> why would we move the good one out of tree rather than making it default?
<Skipp_OSX> so that it can be in a package instead of in the source tree.
<waddlesplash> that's not an answer
<Skipp_OSX> why is that not an answer? It's a 3rd party app in a package, it gets pulled in, but it's not in the source tree, so we need one that is in the source tree as a backup.
<waddlesplash> that still doesn't answer my question
<waddlesplash> we already have a color picker in-tree, why not just replace it with a good one?
<waddlesplash> what is the value of moving to a package at all?
<Skipp_OSX> because that adds a dependency and I don't that dependency in the minimal build.
<waddlesplash> what dependency??
<Skipp_OSX> Colors!
<waddlesplash> ???
<waddlesplash> the IOM picker has no dependency at the moment
<waddlesplash> if we make BColorControl based on that, then no dependency is added
<Skipp_OSX> right because he pulled Colors! in but I want to take it out again.
<waddlesplash> again... why?
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<Skipp_OSX> how can I explain this... ok, right now Icon-O-Matic is using its own color picker right, a copy of Colors! but it's the only one that has it.
<Skipp_OSX> What I want to do is pull that color picker out of Icon-O-Matic into a package where it can be developed independently and then pulled in and used by Icon-O-Matic and any other app that uses the color picker system I've developed.
<dru_satori> and you do not want to contribute the one from Colors! into the core tree ?
<Skipp_OSX> right, I do not want Colors! to be in the tree, I want it to be a separate package.
<Skipp_OSX> The Icon-O-Matic color picker has bugs for example, bugs that I know about but I am reluctant to fix, but I've fixed them in my version.
<waddlesplash> still doesn't answer my questions...
<waddlesplash> I think a "color picker system" is a weird thing for Haiku to have anyway
<waddlesplash> we support drag and drop of colors. Why have some kind of "addon system" when you can just use whatever app and color picker you want and then drag and drop?
<waddlesplash> seems like potentially overkill, but ok
<Skipp_OSX> Well, if you think it's overkill you're really not going to like FontPickers then
<waddlesplash> uh, nope lol
<waddlesplash> we don't need "pickers" for every little thing. Drag and drop suffices
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<Skipp_OSX> I know you don't "get" it.
<Skipp_OSX> drag and drop is part of it, but it's bigger than that, it's modularity I don't know how else to put it.
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<waddlesplash> but what's the point of adding tons of modularity here when D&D suffices?
<Skipp_OSX> you can have different pickers for different apps, you can change the default.
<waddlesplash> what value does the modularity add?
<waddlesplash> okay but I can also just start multiple color picker apps
<waddlesplash> and drag and drop to different apps
<waddlesplash> so what's the difference?
<Skipp_OSX> I mean, you can drag and drop yes, but you can NOT drag and drop too.
<waddlesplash> ?
<Skipp_OSX> Like how Icon-O-Matic works
<Skipp_OSX> you click the swatch right, and then you pick a color and then you click ok to set it.
<waddlesplash> can't you drag and drop a color to a swatch?
<Skipp_OSX> yeah you can do that too
<waddlesplash> okay... so what's the difference then
<waddlesplash> instead of click, pick, OK; you open some other app, do whatever in there, and then drag onto the swatch
<Skipp_OSX> the difference is that you pull up a color picker instead of drag and drop.
<waddlesplash> okay... and how is that better
<Skipp_OSX> drag and drop can be tricky for some users, it's a more straightforward workflow.
<waddlesplash> I don't see how that is
<waddlesplash> if D&D is tricky for some users, let's figure out why and fix that
<Skipp_OSX> well because some people have issues using the mouse accurately especially if they have motor control issues.
<Skipp_OSX> like a disability.
<waddlesplash> then we should integrate KeyCursor or something
<Skipp_OSX> what?
<waddlesplash> so that D&D works for everyone
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<Skipp_OSX> I see but that doesn't actually address the issue it's more of a crutch.
<waddlesplash> then let's find some other fix
<Skipp_OSX> I did
<waddlesplash> no
<waddlesplash> "D&D is broken for some users" is a problem in of itself
<waddlesplash> we should fix that, not just add workarounds
<Skipp_OSX> yeah I did by making it a modal pop up.
<Skipp_OSX> I mean, that's what Icon-O-Matic currently does, the interaction is the same as now.
<waddlesplash> and I don't think that fixes anything here, it just adds complexity
<waddlesplash> right, and IOM may be wrong for that, idk
<Skipp_OSX> uh, well, I don't think so, no.
<Anarchos> hello
<waddlesplash> well, even if not, we still don't need a whole "modular picker" system IO
<waddlesplash> IMO
<waddlesplash> really, if "D&D does not work for some people" is a problem, then let's find a generic solution that works for all D&D uses
<Skipp_OSX> that's not really the heart of it, I'm not doing this as a way to get around D&D, it's about modularity.
<Skipp_OSX> I mean D&D is also a problem for those with disability and so that's why UI is structured using modals.
<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] waddlesplash pushed 5 commits to master [hrev58525] - https://git.haiku-os.org/haiku/log/?qt=range&q=0dd81e3d4bb2+%5Ee68498c7c9e3
<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] 238b2aa31c5e - licenses: Add "NewOS".
<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] 25534c1907fd - licenses: Make formatting and wording of BSD licenses consistent.
<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] 1c45ac1e206d - licenses, AboutSystem: Add credits for netresolv.
<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] 01b94ce7b8d9 - AboutSystem: Drop GLU credit.
<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] 0dd81e3d4bb2 - licenses: Drop "GNU GPL v2 classpath exception".
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<waddlesplash> Skipp_OSX: and again, we can find other ways to solve the disability problem, I think
<waddlesplash> and I think D&D is a much better modularity than this
<waddlesplash> by a lot
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<Skipp_OSX> but this is about modularity, different color pickers in different apps, new color picker apps.
<waddlesplash> and that can be done with D&D already
<Skipp_OSX> I suppose so, but I like having the picker.
<Skipp_OSX> Clearly this was already planned feature by Pavel Cisler and Robert Chinn so it's something that is in line with Be's vision of how they want they system to work.
<Skipp_OSX> Now you can say you don't agree with Pavel Cisler and Robert Chinn's vision that's fine, but I do. I see what they were thinking and it's a good idea.
<Skipp_OSX> And then I'd like to do the same for Fonts which I guess you think drag and drop is the way to go there too.
<waddlesplash> yes.
<waddlesplash> and those, there really aren't many in the default install anyway
<waddlesplash> font pickers that is
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<Begasus[m]> cu peepsss
<Skipp_OSX> Well of course not, we don't really have a font picker at all and every app does their own thing.
<Skipp_OSX> Like color pickers, it's a similar situation.
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<Skipp_OSX> https://insightfactory.tumblr.com/post/771418062513684480/icon-o-matic-bi-directional-color-picker-support <= see this interaction for why it's more than just drag and drop, you can change colors in the picker and Icon-O-Matic and it goes back and forth.
<waddlesplash> ok, THAT seems like an actual argument for more than just D&D
<Skipp_OSX> https://insightfactory.tumblr.com/post/716695229457137664/tracker-used-space-bar-updating-live <= and then here is the interaction in Tracker, again, more going on than just a simple drag and drop.
<Skipp_OSX> it "live" updates the bar color. It does that now, but in a picker is the new trick.
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<dru_satori> in other platforms the two way communication has traditionally been done via even or callback
<dru_satori> almost all of them *can* do it, though it is not an intrinsic requirement
<Skipp_OSX> this is done with messages of course
<Skipp_OSX> I mean maybe not of course, but "the Be way"
<Skipp_OSX> Easy asynchronous message passing between apps is what makes Haiku unique, like the ball demo app that passes the ball between 2 instances of an app.
<Anarchos> Skipp_OSX very fun demo, i remember playing with it
<Skipp_OSX> yeah, well, it works like that only between two different teams instead, the app team and color picker team
<Skipp_OSX> so for example Icon-O-Matic and the Colors! picker, they're two different apps that run independently of each other. You can even open the color picker on its own and do drag and drop like you currently can do with Colors!
<dru_satori> that's actually a strong argument for the Color! pciker to become a standard picker though :)
<dru_satori> cross app, real time updating of color changes
<dru_satori> sigh, I really need to move Haiku from the USB-C thumbdrive to the NVMe internal drive on this machine. that would help build times
<Skipp_OSX> https://0x0.st/8o-D.png <= demo of what opening the color picker on its own looks like
<Skipp_OSX> you're not meant to use it that way, the color picker window adds in the saved color container squares and the eye dropper tool and the buttons. But you can open the app showing that it is indeed just a regular app.
<Skipp_OSX> I probably should add a bit of border space around the view.
<dru_satori> At one point Delphi used a similiar design.
<nipos> waddlesplash: I have a question about that compatibility name mangling stuff... With nm I found the correct _Reserved_BChannelSlider_0_... thingy (at least I think so), but where do I get the correct value for the _ZN8BChannelSlider... thingy?
<waddlesplash> from a GCC13 libbe.so
<nipos> Can I take that one from 64bit?
<waddlesplash> yes
<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] waddlesplash pushed 4 commits to master [hrev58526] - https://git.haiku-os.org/haiku/log/?qt=range&q=e0f5c2e5cdc8+%5E0dd81e3d4bb2
<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] bddf466406f0 - kernel/user_debugger: Add some more permissions checks.
<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] 43b96dabf210 - kernel/user_debugger: Add some padding/flexibility to debug_nub_message.
<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] c125a3250887 - kernel/vm: Adjust kernel permissions check in vm_area_for.
<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] e0f5c2e5cdc8 - kernel/vm: Distinguish reserved areas from non-existent areas in vm_area_for.
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<dru_satori> after watching this discussion, am I the only one that thinks a live control gallery like the WinUI Gallery makes sense for engaging developers into the platform ?
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<dru_satori> don't get me wrong, I see a potential for for something like https://detailspro.app/ to be a huge enabler for more native apps too.
<Skipp_OSX> isn't that what Playgrounds demo is? I don't know what WinUI gallery is.
<waddlesplash> it probably makes sense, yes
<nipos> Thanks, I think I got it right now :)
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<Skipp_OSX> Aren't our friends in Auckland working on that/did some work on that?
<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] waddlesplash pushed 1 commit to master [hrev58527] - https://git.haiku-os.org/haiku/log/?qt=range&q=2f8543fe8cd2+%5Ee0f5c2e5cdc8
<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] 2f8543fe8cd2 - interface_kit/ChannelSlider: Fix binary compatibility breakage
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<Skipp_OSX> https://www.haiku-os.org/blog/czeidler/2012-09-03_ale_auckland_layout_editor <= this is what I was referring to concerning Details Pro/WinUI Gallery, the Auckland Layout Editor
<dru_satori> it's interesting, and I played with it, but it is closer to something like how Delphi creates it's own custom controls to wrap system controls instead of generating (and to a degree, parsing) the raw code
<Skipp_OSX> I wish the possessive form of it was it's it would make life so much easier.
<Skipp_OSX> C++ is too hard to parse unfortunately, one of the reasons NeXT used ObjC for Interface Builder and then Swift later on.
<dru_satori> I wasn't using it as possessive but more contraction for It Is
<Skipp_OSX> I'm not trying to pick fun at you, I also have issues with it's vs its. "it is closer to something like how Delphi creates *it's*** own custom controls" is the wrong its but that is so common an error it would be easier if that was the official possessive.
<Skipp_OSX> Silly English language and **its** many pitfalls.
<dru_satori> for me, it is mostly, laziness. my brain is in full go, and my fingers cannot keep up.
<dru_satori> more to the point, English is a terrible language in sooooo many ways
<Skipp_OSX> yeah its awful
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<dru_satori> I cannot imagine trying to come to it from any reasonably structured language.
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<Skipp_OSX> if you don't know how to pronounce a word you'll never get there from the written version alone.
<bjorkintosh> you can google the pronunciation though.
<Skipp_OSX> other languages have accent marks to help you or have consistent vowel pronunciation.
<bjorkintosh> also, Interface Builder was originally a lisp program.
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<Skipp_OSX> is that right? Even easier to parse
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<Skipp_OSX> I didn't know that, I thought it was ObjC from the get-go. I'm only familiar with it's later Mac OS X form, not the NeXT original.
<Skipp_OSX> Maybe we'll get a FP language someday
<Skipp_OSX> BeOS and Haiku have a linear mindset that will be tough to break out of.
<Skipp_OSX> by that I mean we do a lot of iteration instead of map/reduce in our APIs.
<bjorkintosh> eh. FP is great and all.
<Skipp_OSX> FP FTW
<bjorkintosh> but I really don't know why it remains obscure.
<Skipp_OSX> *shrug* maybe too conceptually difficult.
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<bjorkintosh> how?
<bjorkintosh> a function is a table.
<bjorkintosh> Period.
<bjorkintosh> (with extra steps, of cours)
<bjorkintosh> a map is a table. a dictionary is a table. an array too. they're really all just very fancy tables.
<bjorkintosh> because the underlying component, memory, is a damned table of addresses and contents.
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<Skipp_OSX> async programming is hard, that's what I'm struggling with with color pickers
<Skipp_OSX> We do some filtering but not nearly as much as we should. We shouldn't iterate to reduce ever, but we do and we haven't really built APIs to make that easier for the programmer.
<bjorkintosh> hmm. I know nothing about async programming. is there a theoretical layer describing it?
<Skipp_OSX> promises are the implementation in C++ but idk about the theoretical side.
<Skipp_OSX> Callback functions essentially. You pass a message to start doing a thing, when the thing is done it calls a function and you're expected to handle that and do the next thing. It's hard because when things aren't linear it's difficult to reason about what is valid and what's not and when.
<Skipp_OSX> there are race conditions where two different threads can set the same variable at different times so when you run the program it works most of the time but once in a while it crashes because things happen in a different order.
<Skipp_OSX> In my particular example of color pickers none of that the above is the problem I'm having. I'm having trouble making sure that the messages I send are directed to the right place. If I do it wrong I get an infinite loop where I send the message to myself over and over again and it soft locks.
<Skipp_OSX> My problem is that the messages go in both directions. So I've got what I'm calling the target on one side and the picker on the other. I have to make sure messages coming from the target only go to the picker and messages coming from the picker only go to the target.
<bjorkintosh> Skipp_OSX: how did you learn async? what books did you use?
<Skipp_OSX> That's a good question. They tried to teach it to me in college and so I got some of it there. Rest is messing around in Javascript.
<Skipp_OSX> Coming from an electrical engineering background hardware is always asynchronous with signals being high, low or high-impedence modes. You try to create a synchronous system inside of asynchronous system with the clock.
<Skipp_OSX> high-impedence or Z is a floating signal essentially. It means the signal is neither tied high or low and is indeterminate.
<Skipp_OSX> but don't worry about that stuff unless you want to work on VHDL, there's a bunch of books like https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/asynchronous-programming-with/9781835884249/ that go over the concepts.
<nekobot> [haikuwebkit] pulkomandy force-pushed 42 commits to branch haiku-webkit2: https://github.com/haiku/haikuwebkit/compare/1af0bc3f8d30...6c4ca513a237
<nekobot> • RAJAGOPALAN-GANGADHARAN (c7acc749): IPC for haiku…
<nekobot> • RAJAGOPALAN-GANGADHARAN (5022ef52): Redirect all logging to BeDC/DevConsole…
<nekobot> • RAJAGOPALAN-GANGADHARAN (a01bd1fa): Adding the view to Minibrowser and adding few buttons
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<zdykstra> nice to see commits there
<geniodiabolico> I realized my naive setup of dev environment didn't work so I blew it all away, cloned fresh copies of the repositories and started over,. I am on a Haiku machine and my goal is to build and install my own nightlys on this machine that I can then boot into,
<geniodiabolico> I did this to configure and set up build tools:
<geniodiabolico> ./configure --cross-tools-source ../buildtools --build-cross-tools x86_64
<geniodiabolico> What is the correct thing to do to in order to build everything such that I can then put it on another partion?
<geniodiabolico> Is it this?
<geniodiabolico> jam -a -j3 -sHAIKU_IGNORE_USER_BUILD_CONFIG=1 -q @release-raw
<geniodiabolico> maybe without the -a flag
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<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] waddlesplash pushed 1 commit to master [hrev58528] - https://git.haiku-os.org/haiku/log/?qt=range&q=ee40fc9747cd+%5E2f8543fe8cd2
<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] ee40fc9747cd - Documentation: Remove old unused doxygen_config files
<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] waddlesplash pushed 1 commit to master [hrev58529] - https://git.haiku-os.org/haiku/log/?qt=range&q=802fb5b90f34+%5Eee40fc9747cd
<nekobot> [haiku/haiku] 802fb5b90f34 - Documentation: Replace remaining references of OpenBeOS with Haiku
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<geniodiabolico> or does it make more sense to build -q @nightly-iso, mount the iso and then run the installer to partition?
<geniodiabolico> It's not impossible to blow the partition away every time but I was kind of hoping I could preserve it through new OS upgrades
<waddlesplash> just install new packages
<waddlesplash> "jam -q -jN @nightly-raw haiku.hpkg haiku_devel.hpkg"
<waddlesplash> then "pkgman ins path/to/...hpkg"
<waddlesplash> this will install them on the running system, so just reboot
<waddlesplash> this also has the bonus that it creates a new "state" so if the new packages break something very badly, you can use the bootloader to boot into the previous state and repair things easily
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<geniodiabolico> When I reclaimed this Toshiba satellite I just left the existing partitions so I have one big one and a 15GB one that was the former recovery . My plan is to install the nightlys on that smaller one so I can move back and forth with BootManager
<geniodiabolico> so could I boot into that, mount the big partition and pkgman the build file from there?
<PulkoMandy> If you configure UserBuildConfig for it, you could also use jam @install (from haiku) or jam @update (from linux) to directly write to an existing partition (but not the currently running one I think)
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<PulkoMandy> See build/jam/UserBuildConfig.*, these files contain comments on how to set that up
<geniodiabolico> my first shot at setting this up was a disaster. I didn't fully RTFM and just configured with no arguments, so I didn't compile buildtools, etc. I'm about to kick off my first build of Haiku from the new setup
<geniodiabolico> PulkoMandy interesting, I will dig into that. Thanksd
<nephele_xmpp> pulkomandy: regarding webkit beeing broken, can we not revert to the version before it? it seems a bit harsch that you have to scramble for a new release because of this
<nephele_xmpp> anyhow.. I got word back that the part of my gpu the shop forgot to ship they have now “found” and will ship, so hopefully my main PC with the webkit2 keyboard patch is available again soon..
<geniodiabolico> here we go. Fingers crossed. It took four hours to compile the buildtools so I might fall asleep before this finishes unless it errors out.
<PulkoMandy> nephele_xmpp: If someone wants to fix things in other ways, fine. I'm not really scrambling, just letting my old computer build things very slowly :)
<PulkoMandy> I do other things in the meantime
<nephele_xmpp> Alright, aslong as that works for you :)
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<geniodiabolico> PulkoMandy I am in the same boat as you with slow building. I didn't want to cross-compile so I'm on the most modern laptop that was sitting in the closet available to repurpose. It's maybe 15 years old.
<nephele_xmpp> My Haiku laptop broke (the hinges did anyhow). Now I only have 32bit laptops with broken batteries that can still run Haiku :g
<nephele_xmpp> Guess I have some motivation to write the T2 driver though
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* phschafft waves to erysdren and nephele_xmpp.
<phschafft> been thinking about the two of you.
<nephele_xmpp> hi phschafft
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<phschafft> all good?
<nephele_xmpp> yeah, mostly :)
<erysdren> howdy phschafft
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<erysdren> whats up?
<phschafft> thinking of projects. just a little.
<nephele_xmpp> fosdem is soon, I’m excited a bit
* phschafft nods.
<erysdren> phschafft: here's what i've been working on today and yesterday: https://github.com/erysdren/trenchbroom-pov-ray/
<phschafft> seems to be way more fun than anything I do.
<erysdren> well, it helps that i don't have a day job :P
<erysdren> so i just kill free time doing whatever.
* phschafft nods.
<geniodiabolico> I also don't have a day job. I am digging in on this just because it looks fun.
<phschafft> that is kind of a bonus ;)
<phschafft> hm.
<erysdren> ohh very nice
<nephele_xmpp> I was thinking recently if the api swagger thingy could be adjusted to output code for netservices2 on Haiku. Then we could make some native applications for stuff like mastadon and such
<phschafft> erysdren: I'm at the point of naming stuff, wondering if you want to provide input about register names.
<phschafft> nephele_xmpp: as for you, someone in #plan9 triggered a thought about audio devices and user interaction.