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<mrentropy64>
I looked at Ren'py, but I think that's beyond me.
<mrentropy64>
Pretty sure fixing Code::Blocks is beyond me, too.
<Coldfirex>
I guess the basics dont work in code:blocks?
<mrentropy64>
It crashes a lot.
<mrentropy64>
And it's a mix of C++, wxWidgets, and QT.
<mrentropy64>
And my C++ is several years out of date. Like... two decades.
<mrentropy64>
I can't even figure out how to use 'pip' after installing it.
<Coldfirex>
ahh, well its a full ide I wouldnt expect it to be simple :)
<mrentropy64>
Oooh. And CodeBlocks won't even start today.
<mrentropy64>
Well, maybe if I could use it to debug and make changes it would be easier!
<mrentropy64>
Interesting. It won't open because it says I'm missing all QT and wxWidgets libraries.
<mrentropy64>
They were here yesterday, so I don't know where they might have run off to.
<mrentropy64>
Now ps is telling me /bin/ps: Bad file descriptor
<mrentropy64>
I think I should reboot.
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<mrentropy64>
Weird
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<mrentropy64>
My system appears to have hosed itself.
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<mrentropy64>
My USB drive no longer works with my USB hub. That's annoying.
<mrentropy64>
pip still doesn't work, though.
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<Coldfirex>
that sucks. reinstall?
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<mrentropy64>
I tried uninstalling and re-installing pip, but it still keeps saying there's no such thing when I try and run it.
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<nephele[x]>
command -v pip
<nephele[x]>
ColdFirex: what would a reinstall solve? the package manager is just going to make a new state without the package... and then when you ask it to reinstall it's going to use the exact same package again from an older state
<nephele[x]>
would be equivalent to a reboot, or am i missing something? I suppose it would be slightly different in that new installs only get activated after a reboot if you updated haiku.hpkg in the meantime
<nephele[x]>
mrentropy64: pip seems to get installed to version specific names for higher python versions, like pip3.9 or so
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<mrentropy64>
nephele[x]: Cool. I'll give it a try in a bit. Thanks.
<mrentropy64>
Also, in this case, I thought it worthwhile to uninstall and re-install a package because my SSD was having issues with the hub it was connected to and I didn't know if something had gotten out of whack or not.
<Niklas[m]>
@nephele I worked at the dark theme for https://gnulinux.ch that you requested during the last few days.It's now finished and online.And now it's time for me to start writing the Beta 3 review article :D
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<nephele[x]>
Thanks! It looks nice! the creme de la creme would be replacing mostly white images with alternatives for dark mode, but that is a way more editorial step. This is very nice as i can use it :D
<nephele[x]>
mrentropy64: I can understand that, but reinstalling with resumeable downloads i basicallys a no-op, it's just moving a file around twice basically since it's already installed
<nephele[x]>
well, in a previous state folder
<nephele[x]>
unless you explicitly deleted the old hpkg
<mrentropy64>
Allright. It's pip3.7
<mrentropy64>
That's a good point. Unfortunately, it's hard to get rid of habits 30 years old.
<Niklas[m]>
We already talked about the images in the team chat but came to the result that creating new images for every article and replacing it everywhere is way too much work so we only added a dark mode for the sponsor's logos if available in dark mode.
<nephele[x]>
Niklas: Yeah, I agree, especially since many tech things just aren't available in dark mode
<Niklas[m]>
I'm happy that you like the rest of it :)
<nephele[x]>
I only mentioned it because some android screenshot was immidiently showing with it's horrible color scheme :P
<Niklas[m]>
Yeah,Android and it's color schemes are ugly as hell anyways ducks
<nephele[x]>
I liked android 4.4 holo design :)
<Niklas[m]>
Yes,the Holo Design was quite cool.But Material is more something for children than something you can actually work with.
<Coldfirex>
Has anyone tried to hack on WebPositive by chance (the app, not webkit)? I was trying to add a simple feature using pre-existing logic to have a setting button to clear downloads on exit. Web+ compiles but debugs when run.
<mrentropy64>
I wonder if there should be something like a 'pin' control on the window tabs. Something that would cause the window to be on whatever workspace you went to until it was turned off again.
<nephele[x]>
We have this functionality, but not a UI for it, personally i wouldn't add a dedicated button for such an uncommon feature
<nephele[x]>
maybe adding it in the workspaces preflet could wokr?
<nephele[x]>
ColdFirex: Hey, I haven't really changed that much but i've compiled and ran it fine from a build, what is your question? that it calls the debugger on an assertion?
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<nephele[x]>
Niklas: honestly the entire premise "Users want to see where controls go" is sitting wrong with me, this is almost never the case for me :)
<nephele[x]>
I am much happier on iOS with dark mode than I was with android material design... wierdly enough iOS dark mode seems closer to what i liked about holo than material design dark is
<nephele[x]>
(As an added bonus, I have a webkit browser I can compare to webpositive)
<Coldfirex>
I guess I really dont have a question. Just lost on why it debugs upon launch lol. Seems like there is a lot of low hanging fruit with Web+ that should be simple to add
<nephele[x]>
There was some low hanging fruit, and some archers got some of it, if you'd like to take a shot go ahead :D
<Niklas[m]>
What exactly do you mean by "where controls go"?Do you mean animations on switches or something like that?If yes,than you're right,I also don't feel that this is neccessary.
<nephele[x]>
I'll compile it now to see if i can reproduce it
<nephele[x]>
Niklas: the stated design philosophy when they introduced it the "why material, what was wrong with holo" justification stuff basically
<nephele[x]>
They said something about material is because users want to see where controls disapear to and come from when they are done with them and such... I suppose that is a bad justification for their horrible animation-heavy-latency-masking UI
<Niklas[m]>
Ah interesting.I never read about the philosophy.But this animation-heavy UI is really horrible and wastes so much compute power that a cheap phone doesn't have :/
<nephele[x]>
Setting animation scale to 0 was a good workaround back in the day, in recent versions this caused the UI to break horribly in places
<Coldfirex>
nephele: I have been but no luck so far. btw I can compile/run clean sources
<nephele[x]>
I compiled it cleanly for tag: hrev55316, it does not call a debugger
<nephele[x]>
on amd64, maybe your change made it call it? also, don't you see where in the code it calls the debugger? it should be the entry point of the debugging session
<Niklas[m]>
I think that may be going too off-topic now but I moved from Android to Blackberry some years ago.First my main reason was having a physical keyboard but then I loved their great OS.It was so fast (C/C++ based as far as I know,with Qt applications).It's UI was so intuitive and it was so fast.I said I would never ever go back to Android.Then Blackberry OS died and here I am again,with a Android phone (since two months or so) and I already want
<Niklas[m]>
to throw it out of the window again whenever I have to use it :'(
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<nephele[x]>
I am not happy with the choice between apple and google, but here i am... I also wish for a nice phone OS... the haiku of mobiles, i Guess :/
<nephele[x]>
apart from outright porting Haiku to mobile devices and maybe letting applications opt-in to display in such an enviroment my hope is slim though, maybe some of the linuxonphone projects will bring barely useable stuff
<Coldfirex>
Yes I can see the section it bombs at, but I am stuck on figuring out why. I literally have only setup the box to add a new setting\checkbox with no action taken yet.
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<Niklas[m]>
Apple is too closed for me.Android can at least be ungoogled but it's difficult and I'm sure they still have some spyware deeply built into the core of the OS
<nephele[x]>
Ungoogled, e.g lineageos Android turned out to be impossible to build for me, with a literal dedicated build slave for that purpose. So i basically said "fuck it, theoretical open source doesn't help me"
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<nephele[x]>
100GB just for the source repo, and the build wants to take 150GB more... D:
<Niklas[m]>
I'm currently hoping for Plasma Mobile to become usable.I have a shiny new PinePhone laying around here but it's battery lasts for too short and I'm waiting for the physical keyboard that will also extend the battery.
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<nephele[x]>
iOS also has some accesibility features i use now i pretty much rely on, especially for contrast and low light
<nephele[x]>
Niklas: if they port their design philosophy of too many buttons to mobile I am doubtfull that It would be useable for me :)
<Niklas[m]>
I degoogle phones using some ADB commands.I can remove Play Services,Chrome,Youtube and similar nonsense without even needing root permissions.So far I only had one single device that was supported by LineageOS,all others are not.
<nephele[x]>
Taking normal android and degoogling with adb often leaves widgets and uninstallable services, also for example google location services you can't really replace without root etc.
<nephele[x]>
It's annoying, and complicated :( and lineageos is a good effort, but it's also hard to use with f-droid, especially after f-droid changed their UI so drastically
<Niklas[m]>
I don't need to replace it.I just remove it and if apps want access to my location,they should go to hell
<Niklas[m]>
There are some third-party clients for the F-Droid repository with a more traditional UI.
<nephele[x]>
there is also no good OpenStreeMaps location app i can recomend generally, maybe OSMand but it's also got sharp edges
<nephele[x]>
Third party clients is even more "eh" with the f-droid client itself already breaking often enough
<Niklas[m]>
Magic Earth is easy to use and works pretty good but it's closed-source unfortunately.It uses OpenStreetMap data however.
<nephele[x]>
So does Pokemon Go apparently
<Niklas[m]>
Never played that
<nephele[x]>
Me neither
<nephele[x]>
I only played the ingress game before it
<Niklas[m]>
The only game I need on my phone is good old Snake
<nephele[x]>
But did you programm snake for the ti-84? :P
<Niklas[m]>
No
<nephele[x]>
Anyhow, Haiku phone... should call it "Maple", would also be 5 letters and match the orange leaf icon ;)
<Niklas[m]>
I'm not sure if that would be a good idea
<nephele[x]>
What would? the name or a phone-ish os?
<Niklas[m]>
Even many Linux apps and desktops are removing features and destroying their advanced UI to be more mobile and touch friendly.Would be a shame to lose the last real desktop OS for having a mobile Haiku edition.
<nephele[x]>
Personally I want an OS that can do the phoneish experience, but do the desktop one if you connect a HDMI cable, but with proper desktop apps...
<nephele[x]>
Niklas: my proposal would be more two /dedicated/ UI's for each case
<Niklas[m]>
I don't talk about the name but about the whole idea (which sounds good first) and its consequences
<nephele[x]>
I mean a proper division on the API level
<nephele[x]>
you can reuse controls and views, but you first off get a completely different entrypoint for example
<Niklas[m]>
That's a good idea
<nephele[x]>
For example, calculator probably only needs minor adjustments, Caja could reuse lots of timeline code but would need to rewrite some stuff for the "around" part
<nephele[x]>
And I'd only ever display apps that have /explicitly/ opted in to be in one UI space, to prevent people "just recompiling" apps and going "but why are the buttons so tiny"
<Niklas[m]>
Having a phone experience and transform into a full-blown Linux desktop is exactly what the PinePhone is already doing by the way.And Plasma Mobile is really not that bad,it just needs some more time.I think they even took some great UI concepts from Blackberry OS.Some others unfortunately from Android but still the result is not as bad.
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<nephele[x]>
Yes, but the desktop KDE experience for example is way too complex for me
<Niklas[m]>
Your idea with a explicit separation between desktop and mobile sounds really good.That could make both versions a success.The current trend of one app for both actually ruins the experience on both,but it's worse on the desktop.
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<Niklas[m]>
I'm currently chatting with you using a KDE Plasma desktop and I don't find it that complex after the initial setup is done.
<nephele[x]>
for instance, hot corner is an okay feature, in gnome it either works or doesn't... in KDE instead of a good implementation you get /two/ int values for "activation delay" and "reactivation delay" in ms, how would I as a dumb user figure out what values would be good there? I have no idea
<Niklas[m]>
I have no idea either.
<nephele[x]>
These are settings that should never exist in the UI; but KDE has severalll... that is my main gripe tbh
<pch>
i just turn off hot corner, though most desktop experiences suck these days
<nephele[x]>
also that their categories don't make any sense, for example "system settings" I still can't remember if this is in system or in settings in the launcher
<nephele[x]>
I only know it is in only one of them
<Niklas[m]>
These settings should exist to give advanced users a choice,but they should be hidden by default and only shown in a expert settings window.
<nephele[x]>
No, they should just never be there. A good implementation should not ask users to hardcode milisecond delays
<Niklas[m]>
It's in settings.
<Niklas[m]>
You may think that no one needs to customize the delay,but if you remove it,user XY will come up and demand that they absolutely need a different delay for reason YX that no one else needs or thought about.It's always like that.And KDE wants to make everyone happy :D
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<nephele[x]>
A good implementation should work with force vectors or something to figure out if i want another activation, nothing that relies on trying to estimate my reaction speed
<nephele[x]>
The entire feature is ill-designed like this is all i'm saying, it should not ever have this... haiku btw has something similar, but i didn't figure this out until like a year of using it because the UI was confusing me... maybe i should make a ticket (about screensaver preflet)
<nephele[x]>
hover hint would beenough to convey the info that it is a control that sets something up, hmm...
<nephele[x]>
maybe
<nephele[x]>
Niklas: Haiku is opinionated on many UI things... which makes it quite consistent, gnome is too, but their consisten interface is just not to my liking :P
<nephele[x]>
I figure out though, that you can disable animations in gnome, and then it suddenly became way more useable for me
<Niklas[m]>
I didn't have any problems with the screen saver hot corner setting in Haiku
<nephele[x]>
I didn't figure out at all, that this was a control that is supposed to do something
<nephele[x]>
I thought "Fade now when mouse is here" ment "Test the screensaver by moving your mouse into this left rectangle"
<Niklas[m]>
Gnome might be consistent,but I consistently don't understand their whole concept lol
<nephele[x]>
It took me many trial and erros to figure out what it ment
<nephele[x]>
Yeah... some of their arguments are good, like avoiding the "menu bar bloat" with like 4 or 5 bars with controls above each other in bad cases, but their solution of "have a useless bar at the top forcibly and put the rest in a fat border with a hamburger menu" doesn't really appeal to me
<nephele[x]>
I can't understand why gnome doesn't have a global menu for instance, why waste this golden oportunity with their forced bar... but nah, hamburgers it is
<Niklas[m]>
That's exactly that sort of mobile-focused UI elements that I hate to see on a desktop computer.
<nephele[x]>
yeah
<PulkoMandy>
there is already a patch for the hot corners things to replace it with radio buttons I think, somewhere on gerrit?
<PulkoMandy>
or was that for the notification window position?
<nephele[x]>
Radio buttons? I'd just make hover events highlight the new activated state for the control if you were to click there, that would make it quite clear i think?
<PulkoMandy>
probably
<Niklas[m]>
...but it isn't that nice on Phosh (GNOME mobile) either.Plasma Mobile has a vertical menu bar you can slide-open from the left side which makes more sense to me.
<nephele[x]>
I am very used to the "swipe from left for previous activity" from iOS now, which works nicely for me as a mental model
<nephele[x]>
I also really like the iOS model of "app-specific settings are in the settings app", one place to search, quite easy to remember
<Niklas[m]>
I'm used to the swipe from left to open the menu from Blackberry OS already.It had the same concept.
<nephele[x]>
can i run plasma mobile in a vm?
<nephele[x]>
If you mean like, android sidebar from the left, I really dislike that concept
<Niklas[m]>
You can but when I tested it months ago,the x86 iimage was extremely buggy.It works better on a PinePhone
<nephele[x]>
Well, I don't have a pinephone *shrug*
<Niklas[m]>
The sidebar of Android is very different
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<Niklas[m]>
Let's see if theres a working x86 Plasma Mobile build now...
<nephele[x]>
Some patience for the download, not the fastest server :)
<Niklas[m]>
That's the one I meant.But maybe they fixed some bugs in the meantime
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<white-wolf>
hi
<white-wolf>
i hesite between haiku and ubuntu to teach computering to old person, i search a simply os for very very newbies
<nephele[x]>
Unless you intend for that person to use Haiku full time then, I would not use it, especially for computer uninterested knowledge is hard to transfer to different applications or OS, and they will usually remember stuff like "I need to click exactly here to send an email"
<white-wolf>
it's for test a futur job, if haiku work with youtube now and face book maybe i choice it
<nephele[x]>
Youtube kinda works in webpositive, but it works badly tbh, you can install qmplay2 as a third party app to use it okayish though, no clue about facebook.
<white-wolf>
clue ?
<nephele[x]>
Niklas: I'm stuck, lol. It's asking for a password for "Ubuntu" user, and i have no clue... damn pretend security, this time locking me out of a test image for real
<nephele[x]>
white-wolf: I have never attempted to use facebook on Haiku, so i simply do not know if it works or not
<white-wolf>
okay
<mrentropy64>
It does not. At least, not when I tried it yesterday or the day before. With Beta 3, not nightlies.
<white-wolf>
where the most easy to use and full fonctianallity ? haiku or ubuntu ?
<nephele[x]>
Depends.
<white-wolf>
i was start my learn to zero, when they begin no way back to another os
<nephele[x]>
Haiku is beta software, it may or may not run on your particular hardware, and it still has many known bugs
<nephele[x]>
as for easy to use, that depends on the user, no clue.
<white-wolf>
i was preconise compatible's hardware
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<white-wolf>
i can debbug when i find tome
<white-wolf>
some
<white-wolf>
i want help too, if not i can't ask an #haiku
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<Niklas[m]>
nephele: Well,then the KDE Neon test image is now even more broken than before :/
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<iisi>
«especially after f-droid changed their UI so drastically» F-Droid Classic or Foxy Droid are alternatives with classic UI.
* iisi
scrolls down
<nephele[x]>
Installing 0.102.3 always worked for me :P
<iisi>
F-Droid classic can display screenshots and patchnotes, I think.
<iisi>
Trying to locally share an app via F-Droid's built-in "Swap" features usually takes 30+ tries for me; maybe I should try the new standalone F-Droid Nearby app...
<nephele[x]>
I never used that, only some "apk extractor" app and share via bluetooth normally... no restrictions on having it from f-droid :)
<iisi>
F-Droid "Swap" will work on any app that's installed...if you can get the bloody thing to connect.
<Not-5835>
[haikuports/haikuports] diversys pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±1] https://git.io/J0mZE
<Not-5835>
[haikuports/haikuports] diversys 208c556 - glib_networking: bump for rebuild
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<Vidrep_64>
Hi
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